new cat big bore ...

[J. Jackson]

1 minute ago, stinkipinki said:

Not for Bugatti or McLaren.
They could give a flying fuck about sales.

Tell me that you're not that dumb to compare an extremely limited car, 80 in 2022 for Bugatti, built by highly skilled techs  that has a customer who is more than likely a 1%'er to a company that sells sleds made by Average Joe to Average Joe. Even tho it looks like Bugatti and Cat were neck and neck for 22 as far as sales go.

[Deephaven]

1 hour ago, stinkipinki said:

Not for Bugatti or McLaren.
They could give a flying fuck about sales.

[krom]

57 minutes ago, stinkipinki said:

Not for Bugatti or McLaren.
They could give a flying fuck about sales.

Bugatti is owned by VAG, who uses it to build halo cars for bragging rights, and marketing.  They don't care if it brakes even, or how much money it loses.

McLaren is an independent business with finite resources, and does care how many cars they sell, as just like any other business.  But they are a boutique brand, limited production numbers, high prices, high quality, supurb fit finish etc (or at least thats what they claim, real world their fit and finish is about as bad as tesla) that doesn't need high volume to turn a profit.

Textron sure as hell cares about profit, and AC isn't a halo vehicle for them. 

Currently AC is in a very tough position, textron has destroyed their market share, and shrunk their production volume to a fraction of what it was when they took over.

But they aren't building extreme high end vehicles, that sell for extreme high prices.

This chart shows it pretty well:

Skidoo is the obvious market leader, with Polaris being the challenger. AC is now the market follower, despite challenging poo for second place not that long ago.  IDK if there is a nicher right now, maybe tiaga.  Back in the day it was fast with the blade, cmx, and one or 2 others

 

[Deephaven]

And being a follower sucks.  Me too doesn't cut it...

[Premium]

2 hours ago, krom said:

Textron sure as hell cares about profit, and AC isn't a halo vehicle for them. 

Currently AC is in a very tough position, textron has destroyed their market share, and shrunk their production volume to a fraction of what it was when they took over.

But they aren't building extreme high end vehicles, that sell for extreme high prices.

This chart shows it pretty well:

Skidoo is the obvious market leader, with Polaris being the challenger. AC is now the market follower, despite challenging poo for second place not that long ago.  IDK if there is a nicher right now, maybe tiaga.  Back in the day it was fast with the blade, cmx, and one or 2 others
 

I was at the Silver Lake, MI scramble area this past weekend, a midwest mecca for offroad enthusiasts....SxSs everywhere you look.

Saw one Arctic Cat product. NEVER used to be that way.

 

[Cat45]

4 hours ago, airflite1 said:

If Cat compares to Bugatti, or the exotics in the car world then why don't they just raise their price accordingly and become profitable? 

That's what I wish they would do, Build ultra performance sleds and charge accordingly. 

[Palu49]

17 minutes ago, Premium said:

I was at the Silver Lake, MI scramble area this past weekend, a midwest mecca for offroad enthusiasts....SxSs everywhere you look.

Saw one Arctic Cat product. NEVER used to be that way.

 

Probably used to not even see 1. The wildcat XX is the only relevant off road machine cat has ever made and they even managed to fuck that up letting it be stagnant for 7 years.

[Crnr2Crnr]

4 hours ago, stinkipinki said:

Not for Bugatti or McLaren.
They could give a flying fuck about sales.

holy fuck are you dumb... 

3 hours ago, krom said:

Bugatti is owned by VAG, who uses it to build halo cars for bragging rights, and marketing.  They don't care if it brakes even, or how much money it loses.

McLaren is an independent business with finite resources, and does care how many cars they sell, as just like any other business.  But they are a boutique brand, limited production numbers, high prices, high quality, supurb fit finish etc (or at least thats what they claim, real world their fit and finish is about as bad as tesla) that doesn't need high volume to turn a profit.

Textron sure as hell cares about profit, and AC isn't a halo vehicle for them. 

Currently AC is in a very tough position, textron has destroyed their market share, and shrunk their production volume to a fraction of what it was when they took over.

But they aren't building extreme high end vehicles, that sell for extreme high prices.

This chart shows it pretty well:

Skidoo is the obvious market leader, with Polaris being the challenger. AC is now the market follower, despite challenging poo for second place not that long ago.  IDK if there is a nicher right now, maybe tiaga.  Back in the day it was fast with the blade, cmx, and one or 2 others

 

thank you... 

https://www.rimac-automobili.com/media/press-releases/rimac-automobili-and-bugatti-begin-operating-under-new-company/

 

[Tripleflipper]

3 hours ago, J. Jackson said:

Tell me that you're not that dumb to compare an extremely limited car, 80 in 2022 for Bugatti, built by highly skilled techs  that has a customer who is more than likely a 1%'er to a company that sells sleds made by Average Joe to Average Joe. Even tho it looks like Bugatti and Cat were neck and neck for 22 as far as sales go.

By reading his posts he most certainly is, along with his two side kicks.

[Not greg b]

6 hours ago, stinkipinki said:

How about them sales numbers? 
Maybe we should run them all at 300HP just to see what happens...
Ohhh right, the Polaris and Ski-Doo will fucking explode and can't even run past 220HP.
Damn it.

Atleast Polaris and Ski-Doo got the best handling chassis right?  Ohh wait, they don't anymore.
Atleast Polaris and Ski-Doo are still top notch...ohh wait they still run a chaincase.
Atleast Polaris and Ski-Doo are cutting edge...ohh wait the Polaris chassis is 8 years old going on 9, and Doo's G5 is just a tweaked G5, so thats 7 years old going on 8.
Atleast Polaris and Ski-Doo are well made...oh wait Polaris has re-called every sled they've made for the past 7 years, and just recalled over 11,000 Boost's with over 13 verified leaks.

Sales numbers!
Ohh wait Cat sold out online in a few hours!
Damn it! 

The catalyst didn’t sell out in a few hours. That was a myth the internet made up. In fact it probably hurt the sales of the catalyst because people had the perception they couldn’t get one and did something else. I bought one right before haydays. Dealers had catalysts for sale at haydays. You can get one right now just as easy as a skidoo or Polaris 

[Premium]

19 minutes ago, Palu49 said:

Probably used to not even see 1. The wildcat XX is the only relevant off road machine cat has ever made and they even managed to fuck that up letting it be stagnant for 7 years.

Quite the opposite actually. For a time Cat and Polaris were like the only players in the sport SxS game.  Used to see plenty of Wildcat 1000s and Wildcat Sports out there.

[krom]

43 minutes ago, Palu49 said:

Probably used to not even see 1. The wildcat XX is the only relevant off road machine cat has ever made and they even managed to fuck that up letting it be stagnant for 7 years.

the original wildcat x was revolutionary when it came out, but they let it stagnate, didn't improve it, and didn't increase the hp.

 

Edited October 5, 2023 by krom

[krom]

35 minutes ago, Not greg b said:

The catalyst didn’t sell out in a few hours. That was a myth the internet made up. In fact it probably hurt the sales of the catalyst because people had the perception they couldn’t get one and did something else. I bought one right before haydays. Dealers had catalysts for sale at haydays. You can get one right now just as easy as a skidoo or Polaris 

Its pretty impressive that marketing could screw up the sales process, and have the website showing sold out, when dealers had unsold allocated inventory

As a matter of fact, despite what the site moron claims, ac was asking dealers for catalyst riot, and m orders last week

Edited October 5, 2023 by krom

[Simple Jim]

19 hours ago, ZR6000RR said:

Sometimes when I get bored the neighbor comes over and we take turns licking peanut butter off of my dogs balls for a change.

 

[Not greg b]

51 minutes ago, krom said:

Its pretty impressive that marketing could screw up the sales process, and have the website showing sold out, when dealers had unsold allocated inventory

As a matter of fact, despite what the site moron claims, ac was asking dealers for catalyst riot, and m orders last week

When it comes selling to the direct user, they fail miserably and they try to do it every so often. At the end of the day the dealers get pissed, have un fuck it and Textron sweeps it under the rug like nothing happened. 

[stinkipinki]

1 hour ago, Not greg b said:

The catalyst didn’t sell out in a few hours. That was a myth the internet made up. In fact it probably hurt the sales of the catalyst because people had the perception they couldn’t get one and did something else. I bought one right before haydays. Dealers had catalysts for sale at haydays. You can get one right now just as easy as a skidoo or Polaris 

Online orders sold out, thats not the same as dealer orders. Cat talked about this at Haydays.  Most to all dealers sold out shortly after. That was last year. This year they have caught up and some lingering places had a few here and there, that has nothing to do with anything. 

The Bugatti/Mclaren metaphor really upsets alot of people using the market share argument. Doo have the highest market share, won back to back sled of the year, and this pisses off alot of Polaris faithful. Maybe if they didnt have so many recalls they wouldnt be losing every year to Doo for sled of the year and market share. In two years Cat will have alot of that back, but they dont gaf, as long as they sell out, and they will, again.

 

[Tripleflipper]

7 minutes ago, stinkipinki said:

Online orders sold out, thats not the same as dealer orders. Cat talked about this at Haydays.  Most to all dealers sold out shortly after. That was last year. This year they have caught up and some lingering places had a few here and there, that has nothing to do with anything. 

The Bugatti/Mclaren metaphor really upsets alot of people using the market share argument. Doo have the highest market share, won back to back sled of the year, and this pisses off alot of Polaris faithful. Maybe if they didnt have so many recalls they wouldnt be losing every year to Doo for sled of the year and market share. In two years Cat will have alot of that back, but they dont gaf, as long as they sell out, and they will, again.

 

Speaking for myself (Polaris owner) I have no issue with Doo or any manufacturer that aspires to produce a good sled for a decent price and if they deserve sled of the year, terrific. Doesn't piss me off at all. This should pose a challenge for the others to step up to the plate. Cat seems to finally be stepping up and Polaris, on the other hand, need to smarten the fuck up with their quality control.

[krom]

5 minutes ago, stinkipinki said:

Online orders sold out, thats not the same as dealer orders. Cat talked about this at Haydays.  Most to all dealers sold out shortly after. That was last year. This year they have caught up and some lingering places had a few here and there, that has nothing to do with anything. 

The Bugatti/Mclaren metaphor really upsets alot of people using the market share argument. Doo have the highest market share, won back to back sled of the year, and this pisses off alot of Polaris faithful. Maybe if they didnt have so many recalls they wouldnt be losing every year to Doo for sled of the year and market share. In two years Cat will have alot of that back, but they dont gaf, as long as they sell out, and they will, again.

 

The problem is that textron has fucked the entire process up, what they have done to engineering, purchasing, and line workers they have killed their production capability. 

In 2012 they built 16,000 sleds for 2024 they will build about 6,000.  With volumes that low margins are almost non existent, leaving little profit to pay for R&D.

BTW the Bugatti / McLaren thing you brought up isn't even in the same universe as that textron is doing, or wants to do.  Not sure if you've been hanign out with jimwit, but you need to re-read my post on it, until you understand.

Being 3rd in sales wasn't bad when AC was close to poo in market share/production numbers, but they have fallen off a cliff, and are down to around 10% of the market.  They are not niche, or botique by any stretch of the imagination, they do not command a significantly higher price than the others, so they make far less per unit, and far fewer units.

The last 2 years poo sold more 850 turbo sleds (almost 12,000) than AC built total units (barely 10,000).  Let that sink in.

 

[AK440]

2 hours ago, Not greg b said:

The catalyst didn’t sell out in a few hours. That was a myth the internet made up. In fact it probably hurt the sales of the catalyst because people had the perception they couldn’t get one and did something else. I bought one right before haydays. Dealers had catalysts for sale at haydays. You can get one right now just as easy as a skidoo or Polaris 

 

1 hour ago, krom said:

Its pretty impressive that marketing could screw up the sales process, and have the website showing sold out, when dealers had unsold allocated inventory

As a matter of fact, despite what the site moron claims, ac was asking dealers for catalyst riot, and m orders last week

I find it all pretty confusing to be honest. It was my impression that there were no Catalyst sleds available as people posted they were sold out and the Cat website showed the same thing. I didn’t even bother to contact the Suzuki/Cat dealer to see if they had any available.

[Deephaven]

1 hour ago, stinkipinki said:

The Bugatti/Mclaren metaphor really upsets alot of people using the market share argument. 

Lol, no one is upset.  It is just super funny as it is stupid as shit, but coming from you we expect that.

45 minutes ago, krom said:

The problem is that textron has fucked the entire process up, what they have done to engineering, purchasing, and line workers they have killed their production capability. 

In 2012 they built 16,000 sleds for 2024 they will build about 6,000.  With volumes that low margins are almost non existent, leaving little profit to pay for R&D.

That is the saddest truth I have read on any forum.  6000 is a putrid number that will not allow them to grow or even maintain what they are doing.  No wonder they got out of racing.  They are going to have to get out of designing here pretty quick too.  Probably even manufacturing.  Don't expect quality without profits.

 

[Deephaven]

12 minutes ago, AK440 said:

 

I find it all pretty confusing to be honest. 

Lol, what a fucking surprise.  You are confused a lot.

[Not greg b]

6 minutes ago, AK440 said:

 

I find it all pretty confusing to be honest. It was my impression that there were no Catalyst sleds available as people posted they were sold out and the Cat website showed the same thing. I didn’t even bother to contact the Suzuki/Cat dealer to see if they had any available.

I think the majority of people thought the same as you. I didn’t spring order because I didn’t think I would be able to ride much this year. Things changed so I decided to get a new sled. I found at least 20 of them available with out much work. The only one that will be a really hard to get is the rxc model. The riots didn’t sell well and are easy to find. 

[Palu49]

3 hours ago, Premium said:

Quite the opposite actually. For a time Cat and Polaris were like the only players in the sport SxS game.  Used to see plenty of Wildcat 1000s and Wildcat Sports out there.

 

3 hours ago, krom said:

the original wildcat x was revolutionary when it came out, but they let it stagnate, didn't improve it, and didn't increase the hp.

 

Really? I feel like when I had my prowler 650 I was always the only one anywhere with a cat. I will give that thing credit, besides a bum ball joint and a blown front diff that @krom (probably doesn’t even remember it, cost me a case of beer) got warrantied for me when it was like 6-7 years old I never had any issues and that fucker would crawl out of any situation in it when you locked the front diff.

[Cwhite138]

6 hours ago, Crnr2Crnr said:

holy fuck are you dumb... 

thank you... 

https://www.rimac-automobili.com/media/press-releases/rimac-automobili-and-bugatti-begin-operating-under-new-company/

 

Porsche just had its ipo late last year but really only split as they think they can raise more money. rimac has vag as a big investor. Bugatti is now a joint venture with Porsche and rimac. I think this is just a way to make the companies seem more prestigious but still very much VAG. I would not be surprised if we start seeing the same smoke and mirrors with Lamborghini.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Cwhite138
* disclaimer... I didn't read that link lol

[krom]

speaking of McLaren...  Its worth the watch and listen.  Apparently their engines are as reliable as polaris engines