SSFB Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anler Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Lowering of poverty rates? I thought Obama raised the poverty rates? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racinfarmer Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Member BOHICA Posted January 5, 2017 Gold Member Share Posted January 5, 2017 54 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Tools, technology, and equipment are much more efficient effectively making people appear more efficient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 (edited) 3 minutes ago, BOHICA said: Tools, technology, and equipment are much more efficient effectively making people appear more efficient. And all of those were produced by labor under the same conditions the chart describes. Edited January 5, 2017 by motonoggin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Member BOHICA Posted January 5, 2017 Gold Member Share Posted January 5, 2017 2 minutes ago, motonoggin said: And all of those were produced by labor under the same conditions the chart describes. All those were produced by technology and automation and modern equipment with the help of people. The people didn't necessarily get more productive through ability rather technology. For my trade for example..... Lineman of 50 years ago were just as good as today lineman.... Technology made us more productive.... Not ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 2 hours ago, BOHICA said: All those were produced by technology and automation and modern equipment with the help of people. The people didn't necessarily get more productive through ability rather technology. For my trade for example..... Lineman of 50 years ago were just as good as today lineman.... Technology made us more productive.... Not ability. What made the technology that makes labor more efficient? Labor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zambroski Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 7 hours ago, motonoggin said: What made the technology that makes labor more efficient? Labor. Yeah, but it was paid and voluntary labor by willing individuals. That's the part of the equation that starts to erode your argument here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 1 hour ago, Zambroski said: Yeah, but it was paid and voluntary labor by willing individuals. That's the part of the equation that starts to erode your argument here. No labor is voluntary under capitalism. You either sell your labor or you starve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Member BOHICA Posted January 5, 2017 Gold Member Share Posted January 5, 2017 8 hours ago, motonoggin said: What made the technology that makes labor more efficient? Labor. People and machines made that technology. The people got paid well to make my bucket truck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zambroski Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 33 minutes ago, motonoggin said: No labor is voluntary under capitalism. You either sell your labor or you starve Well then, we should all "sell" at the highest price we can demand. And if you don't want to sell, knowledge of living off the land (and the grid) should be pursued. My point is, there are alternative choices. And your return point will probably be that we have been programmed to "sell". And I'd agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Rigid1 Posted January 5, 2017 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted January 5, 2017 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02sled Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 2 hours ago, motonoggin said: No labor is voluntary under capitalism. You either sell your labor or you starve So if everyone chooses to not sell their labour and just sit back doing nothing everyone will starve since it takes labour to put a roof over your head and food in your belly. Somebody has to do the work to grow the crops raise the livestock and so much more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 3 hours ago, BOHICA said: People and machines made that technology. The people got paid well to make my bucket truck. People who were producing surplus value for capitalists, exactly. 1 hour ago, 02sled said: So if everyone chooses to not sell their labour and just sit back doing nothing everyone will starve since it takes labour to put a roof over your head and food in your belly. Somebody has to do the work to grow the crops raise the livestock and so much more. You don't need to sell labor if you didn't need money to survive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Member BOHICA Posted January 5, 2017 Gold Member Share Posted January 5, 2017 3 minutes ago, motonoggin said: People who were producing surplus value for capitalists, exactly. You don't need to sell labor if you didn't need money to survive. So once a product is built and paid for by a purchaser that product and some of the profits it is made from the use should go to the original assembler of that product cause that product increased efficiencies and productivity of end user? What would your perfect world be to communist like you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02sled Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 (edited) 22 minutes ago, motonoggin said: People who were producing surplus value for capitalists, exactly. You don't need to sell labor if you didn't need money to survive. So you are suggesting everyone will, and will be able to provide everything they need to survive themselves without relying on anyone else and compensating them for their labour or products. They will just give it to you out of the kindness of their heart even if they don't need or want what you have to offer. You know that Jeep you drive... and the home you live in.... get ready to give them up and downgrade your lifestyle to a level that EVERYONE can have exactly the same as the next person. You never did answer... if you despise the system you live in so much why are you still living in it and reaping the rewards comrade. Claim refugee status in one of those countries that has what you want. Edited January 5, 2017 by 02sled Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry ginger Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 16 hours ago, motonoggin said: you do realize most of the productivity gain since the 70's when those lines went different directions is due to technology that the owner invests in not because of the employees working any harder. If anything i'd bet the average employee today works no where near as hard as one in the 50's even if technically they had the same job. Owners deserve the rewards they get from that investment not the employee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 30 minutes ago, Angry ginger said: you do realize most of the productivity gain since the 70's when those lines went different directions is due to technology that the owner invests in not because of the employees working any harder. If anything i'd bet the average employee today works no where near as hard as one in the 50's even if technically they had the same job. Owners deserve the rewards they get from that investment not the employee That is 100% correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 God motostoner and his communism crappie.:lmao: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 2 hours ago, 02sled said: So you are suggesting everyone will, and will be able to provide everything they need to survive themselves without relying on anyone else and compensating them for their labour or products. They will just give it to you out of the kindness of their heart even if they don't need or want what you have to offer. You know that Jeep you drive... and the home you live in.... get ready to give them up and downgrade your lifestyle to a level that EVERYONE can have exactly the same as the next person. You never did answer... if you despise the system you live in so much why are you still living in it and reaping the rewards comrade. Claim refugee status in one of those countries that has what you want. Nope. 1 hour ago, Angry ginger said: you do realize most of the productivity gain since the 70's when those lines went different directions is due to technology that the owner invests in not because of the employees working any harder. If anything i'd bet the average employee today works no where near as hard as one in the 50's even if technically they had the same job. Owners deserve the rewards they get from that investment not the employee Everything is made with labor. Nothing with capital Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s pump Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 (edited) 13 minutes ago, motonoggin said: What's kind of funny Noggin is that the epitome of Communism , in China the average worker earns about $3,500 a year and the average house is over $100,000. There is no feedback loop from products produced to products consumed there. Therefore they create a bunch of shit product. The only people making money in a communist Society are the Elite. I'm not sure where you get the idea that you can have all the good and none of the bad with your Utopia. Edited January 5, 2017 by s pump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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