Arctic cat in trouble??

[p51mstg]

At my previous employer, I went to work every day wondering if my security badge would let me in the door.  I fought blizzards, storms and deer to find out if I still had a job.  Every day.  I'm so glad I don't work there any more, because now I don't even have to leave the house to find out if I've been rif'd or not.

[AK440]

3 hours ago, Premium said:

Yeah those statements are more damning. Although, I wonder if it's primarily the dirt side that's lagging?  The Alterra 600 was introduced to relatively little fanfare and the XX has been out of the conversation for awhile now.

I'd like to think the Catalyst represents a bright spot in the outlook, but who knows.

I’m guessing because the sled market is so small and in decline it’s not enough to make much difference? 

1 hour ago, ICG said:

Maybe it's not just Arctic Cat, but an omen of more cuts + downsizing to come . . . . . 

Makes me wonder if their downsizing plans caused Yamaha to finally pull the plug? Their last two snowcheck season were a joke. Their allocations selling out within a few hours and then having to cancel some of the few orders they got. I suspect it quickly became more hassle than it was worth plus pissing off their customers. 
 

I won’t be surprised to see big reductions come through in the next couple seasons. You can’t support a sport simply by selling  high end, high priced turbo sleds. Ask Doo how that was working for them in the late 80’s with the Mach 1 as their most popular sled. Yamaha did the same thing with the Sidewinder as their best selling model. Now the OEM’s are primarily focused on selling $18,000 - $22,000 big bore twins and turbos. 

[krom]

57 minutes ago, AK440 said:

I’m guessing because the sled market is so small and in decline it’s not enough to make much difference? 

Makes me wonder if their downsizing plans caused Yamaha to finally pull the plug? Their last two snowcheck season were a joke. Their allocations selling out within a few hours and then having to cancel some of the few orders they got. I suspect it quickly became more hassle than it was worth plus pissing off their customers. 
 

I won’t be surprised to see big reductions come through in the next couple seasons. You can’t support a sport simply by selling  high end, high priced turbo sleds. Ask Doo how that was working for them in the late 80’s with the Mach 1 as their most popular sled. Yamaha did the same thing with the Sidewinder as their best selling model. Now the OEM’s are primarily focused on selling $18,000 - $22,000 big bore twins and turbos. 

Manufactures mostly build what sells, its been a long time since the smaller less expensive machines sold in any real number.  Despite what all the guys bitching about sled prices claim, no one buys entry level, low priced stuff, even when the manu's release one of those sleds that everyone claims they'd buy.

The guys bitching about $20k sleds, can't afford $8 to $10k.  They guys who buy the $24k sleds are the ones the manufactures listen to, because they are the ones who actually buy new machines.

[Not greg b]

56 minutes ago, krom said:

Manufactures mostly build what sells, its been a long time since the smaller less expensive machines sold in any real number.  Despite what all the guys bitching about sled prices claim, no one buys entry level, low priced stuff, even when the manu's release one of those sleds that everyone claims they'd buy.

The guys bitching about $20k sleds, can't afford $8 to $10k.  They guys who buy the $24k sleds are the ones the manufactures listen to, because they are the ones who actually buy new machines.

Exactly and that’s why you can find a “ sold out in minutes/limited numbered” 600 catalyst for sale on every street corner right now. If it would have been an 858 with all the crap they released at haydays this year they would be tough to find one. 

[Not greg b]

2 hours ago, AK440 said:

I’m guessing because the sled market is so small and in decline it’s not enough to make much difference? 

Makes me wonder if their downsizing plans caused Yamaha to finally pull the plug? Their last two snowcheck season were a joke. Their allocations selling out within a few hours and then having to cancel some of the few orders they got. I suspect it quickly became more hassle than it was worth plus pissing off their customers. 
 

I won’t be surprised to see big reductions come through in the next couple seasons. You can’t support a sport simply by selling  high end, high priced turbo sleds. Ask Doo how that was working for them in the late 80’s with the Mach 1 as their most popular sled. Yamaha did the same thing with the Sidewinder as their best selling model. Now the OEM’s are primarily focused on selling $18,000 - $22,000 big bore twins and turbos. 

Yamaha pulling the plug probably was one of the causes for this downsize. Yamaha was probably 1/2 their snowmobile business and that was gone over night. Add in terrible dealer sales with the market cooling it’s not a good situation. 

[Crnr2Crnr]

1 hour ago, krom said:

Manufactures mostly build what sells, its been a long time since the smaller less expensive machines sold in any real number.  Despite what all the guys bitching about sled prices claim, no one buys entry level, low priced stuff, even when the manu's release one of those sleds that everyone claims they'd buy.

The guys bitching about $20k sleds, can't afford $8 to $10k.  They guys who buy the $24k sleds are the ones the manufactures listen to, because they are the ones who actually buy new machines.

how many people have walked into the door and ordered or asked about a b-Last?  assuming Neo and Evo sales are similar.  of course in Norman County MN there's thousands of them out riding around if you believe a certain someone. 

dirt, and big profit units are the focus... right, Porsche and other oems? 

 

[awful knawful]

10 hours ago, Crnr2Crnr said:

how many people have walked into the door and ordered or asked about a b-Last?  assuming Neo and Evo sales are similar.  of course in Norman County MN there's thousands of them out riding around if you believe a certain someone. 

dirt, and big profit units are the focus... right, Porsche and other oems? 

 

Definitely sell more neos than blast.

It's basically an underpowered full sized sled.

[Crnr2Crnr]

11 minutes ago, awful knawful said:

Definitely sell more neos than blast.

It's basically an underpowered full sized sled.

how many have they sold?  

[Not greg b]

7 hours ago, awful knawful said:

Definitely sell more neos than blast.

It's basically an underpowered full sized sled.

So is the blast. It’s the mountain sled with a shitty tunnel and the skid mounted higher in the tunnel so the seat height is lower. The b last is also like 2k more than a neo

[AK440]

22 hours ago, krom said:

Manufactures mostly build what sells, its been a long time since the smaller less expensive machines sold in any real number.  Despite what all the guys bitching about sled prices claim, no one buys entry level, low priced stuff, even when the manu's release one of those sleds that everyone claims they'd buy.

The guys bitching about $20k sleds, can't afford $8 to $10k.  They guys who buy the $24k sleds are the ones the manufactures listen to, because they are the ones who actually buy new machines.

This is a proven, well worn path to obscurity or even bankruptcy. How well is Harley doing these days? Solely marketing to aging boomers that have money is a very short term plan. An OEM always needs to grow their customer base and the way you do that is by selling entry level, low cost machines. Look at Honda, they have the biggest selection of youth and beginner dirt bikes to chose from. Yamaha does well at this too. Then look at Suzuki, they have dick. They offer a 50 & a 125 beginner bike and then unless you race motocross you switch to another brand. They aren’t doing so hot right now. There is a limited market for guys wanting a 450 MX bike.

The sled market is fucked. Who runs out an buys a pair of 200cc kids sleds at $6000 each? The vast majority of families can’t afford to get into the sport. Declining sales since 1997 tell the tale and the OEM’s putting all their focus on marketing and manufacturing $24,000 sleds is biting them in the ass and will only get worse.

[Not greg b]

4 hours ago, AK440 said:

This is a proven, well worn path to obscurity or even bankruptcy. How well is Harley doing these days? Solely marketing to aging boomers that have money is a very short term plan. An OEM always needs to grow their customer base and the way you do that is by selling entry level, low cost machines. Look at Honda, they have the biggest selection of youth and beginner dirt bikes to chose from. Yamaha does well at this too. Then look at Suzuki, they have dick. They offer a 50 & a 125 beginner bike and then unless you race motocross you switch to another brand. They aren’t doing so hot right now. There is a limited market for guys wanting a 450 MX bike.

The sled market is fucked. Who runs out a buys a pair of 200cc kids sleds at $6000 each? The vast majority of families can’t afford to get into the sport. Declining sales since 1997 tell the tale and the OEM’s putting all their focus on marketing and manufacturing $24,000 sleds is biting them in the ass and will only get worse.

The decline is from lack of areas to ride close to home. Even back in the late 90s you could ride from a suburban house in most of the Midwest and most people didn’t care. For the last 20 years with urban sprawl and karens you can’t do that anymore. The cost of the sled really isn’t that big of a deal. It’s the 80k truck and trailer, hotel stay, food, travel time to get there, gas in the truck, kids sports activities, ect is killing the sport. If more people had trail access from home again, the sport would grow again. But that is never going to happen again. The trail system that is close to me in Minnesota,  won’t be there in 10 years and I bet it will be less than that. 

[ZR6000RR]

2 minutes ago, Not greg b said:

The decline is from lack of areas to ride close to home. Even back in the late 90s you could ride from a suburban house in most of the Midwest and most people didn’t care. For the last 20 years with urban sprawl and karens you can’t do that anymore. The cost of the sled really isn’t that big of a deal. It’s the 80k truck and trailer, hotel stay, food, travel time to get there, gas in the truck, kids sports activities, ect is killing the sport. If more people had trail access from home again, the sport would grow again. But that is never going to happen again. The trail system that is close to me in Minnesota,  won’t be there in 10 years and I bet it will be less than that. 

Fix your people. We just added miles to our club. Will be stronger 10 years from now. Minnesota, mind you.

[Not greg b]

1 hour ago, ZR6000RR said:

Fix your people. We just added miles to our club. Will be stronger 10 years from now. Minnesota, mind you.

Talk to Farmington, Woodbury, invergrove, rosemount, prior lake snowmobile Minnesota clubs. They will be subdivisions after the land owners die and the kids want the money. The city doesn’t give a shit about having a snowmobile trail system and are waiting on this. I give it 10 years being nice but I will be less than that. If you don’t believe this is what is killing the sport then you are the problem 

[Not greg b]

Also if I have to give you a lesson why loud cans don’t close trails and the so called “off trail” doesn’t close trails I am up to put out an education. 

[Deephaven]

45 minutes ago, Not greg b said:

Talk to Farmington, Woodbury, invergrove, rosemount, prior lake snowmobile Minnesota clubs. They will be subdivisions after the land owners die and the kids want the money. The city doesn’t give a shit about having a snowmobile trail system and are waiting on this. I give it 10 years being nice but I will be less than that. If you don’t believe this is what is killing the sport then you are the problem 

More than 60% of the sled owners in MN are about to live where there are no trails.  That is not good for the sport.  

[Not greg b]

28 minutes ago, Deephaven said:

More than 60% of the sled owners in MN are about to live where there are no trails.  That is not good for the sport.  

You just proved my point. How many easement did the clubs do back zero

[Deephaven]

I can still ride from my house, but have to spend 20min crossing a boring ass lake first.

[Tripleflipper]

I can ride right from my door. Pickup groomed trails going north, south, east and west within 2 minutes. Also have a large lake right in front of me. Won't trailer anymore, can't be bothered. If I can't ride from my door sled is up for sale. Saw an article a few weeks ago that stated the average age of a snowmobiler is 54. If true, not good for the future of this sport

[Crnr2Crnr]

9 hours ago, Not greg b said:

The decline is from lack of areas to ride close to home. Even back in the late 90s you could ride from a suburban house in most of the Midwest and most people didn’t care. For the last 20 years with urban sprawl and karens you can’t do that anymore. The cost of the sled really isn’t that big of a deal. It’s the 80k truck and trailer, hotel stay, food, travel time to get there, gas in the truck, kids sports activities, ect is killing the sport. If more people had trail access from home again, the sport would grow again. But that is never going to happen again. The trail system that is close to me in Minnesota,  won’t be there in 10 years and I bet it will be less than that. 

 

7 hours ago, Not greg b said:

Talk to Farmington, Woodbury, invergrove, rosemount, prior lake snowmobile Minnesota clubs. They will be subdivisions after the land owners die and the kids want the money. The city doesn’t give a shit about having a snowmobile trail system and are waiting on this. I give it 10 years being nice but I will be less than that. If you don’t believe this is what is killing the sport then you are the problem 

 

interestingly, ATV and SXS's seem to be gaining areas to ride, including urban areas and roads.  during the rest of the year from our front door to the cottage in the UP I see as many orvs being used as cars and trucks.   an aging demographic as pointed out directly above won't help the situation.  

fortunately here, for now we have great active clubs, willing land owners and a fantastic trail system... as you've seen.

[krom]

NY corridor trail goes through my property, but I'm not sure if it will exist in 10 years.  As a club we struggle with trail closings every year.  Loud exhaust, off trail riding, and new land owners posting their property as soon as the sale closes.

NY has a pretty strong law that covers land owners for any reason in the case of a lawsuit, and an insurance policy on top of that.  Its not enough to keep folks from worrying that some asshole on a sled will get hurt sue, and take everything they own.

As and outsider to the sport, there is no reason to let others use your land for trails.  It opens you to risks, litter, noise, and possible fights with strangers.  We lost an important section of trail last spring when a sledder roosted a huge bank into a landowners driveway then began swearing and arguing with the land owner...

Now its 2 miles of paved road, and no one will consider a re-route after hearing their neighbor tell what happened.

[Bontz]

@ZR6000RR - you're definitely in the minority if your trails are expanding.  I mean, hey - good for you guys and your club.  That's awesome!  But the reality is, just like everyone else is saying ... our trail systems are slowly dying as land owners shut us down.  I live in the southeast area of the state, and fortunately we still have a decent trail system because we're not part of the metro/suburbs.  But we've had our share of landowners issues where a longstanding landowner will sell (or pass away) and the new owner wants nothing to do with granting access.  A couple gift certificates and annual chicken barbeque don't cut it, I guess - even when it's our club that hold the liability.

I don't know how we morphed from Cat being in trouble to this, but based on the trail topic ... we're all in trouble if things continue the way they are.  Trespassing is ultimately going to be the downfall of our trail system down here.

 

 

[Simple Jim]

10 hours ago, ZR6000RR said:

Someone should have had me fixed , I am a waste of what should have been a good blowjob. We just added miles to our club mostly going into my elongated butthole. Will be stronger 10 years from now when my nephson grows up. Minnesota, mind you.

 

[Deephaven]

He lives in bumfuck nowhere.  Expanding there isn't hard.  I am 20min from a major metropolitan airport and there used to be a shitload of trails here.  Now we fight every year to just keep the ones we have.  

[Mag6240]

11 hours ago, Not greg b said:

Talk to Farmington, Woodbury, invergrove, rosemount, prior lake snowmobile Minnesota clubs. They will be subdivisions after the land owners die and the kids want the money. The city doesn’t give a shit about having a snowmobile trail system and are waiting on this. I give it 10 years being nice but I will be less than that. If you don’t believe this is what is killing the sport then you are the problem 

Add in Lakeville, my 10 acres was completely cut off in the last 3 years.  I take a bike path to a major road ditch that I’m just waiting for the gustapo to give me the “No more” paperwork.  

Fortunately, the city works with us to keep what we have.  A huge business park almost cut us off from Farmington this year, but the city stepped in, bought a strip of land for a nature preserve and allowed us to run the edge of it.

Edited December 1, 2023 by Mag6240

[Doug]

4 hours ago, Crnr2Crnr said:

 

 

interestingly, ATV and SXS's seem to be gaining areas to ride, including urban areas and roads.  during the rest of the year from our front door to the cottage in the UP I see as many orvs being used as cars and trucks.   an aging demographic as pointed out directly above won't help the situation.  

fortunately here, for now we have great active clubs, willing land owners and a fantastic trail system... as you've seen.

SXS have been gaining places to ride along with having issues being brought up.  Alot of the 2ndary roads up Nth are gravel and routinely get graded.  SXS spinning donuts in the middle of a freshly graded road is pissing off townships and users of theses roads.  One townships closed their sections of the road and after multiple meets have agreed to give it one last chance to see if the problems go away.  

The township we're in up Nth is considering some restrictions or closing roads and also a neighboring townships is looking at closing roads.