Arctic cat in trouble??

[Crnr2Crnr]

3 minutes ago, Doug said:

SXS have been gaining places to ride along with having issues being brought up.  Alot of the 2ndary roads up Nth are gravel and routinely get graded.  SXS spinning donuts in the middle of a freshly graded road is pissing off townships and users of theses roads.  One townships closed their sections of the road and after multiple meets have agreed to give it one last chance to see if the problems go away.  

The township we're in up Nth is considering some restrictions or closing roads and also a neighboring townships is looking at closing roads.

good

my buddy has a place tucked in and boxed in the C-N National Forest and those roads get trashed by the orv morons, who also apparently can't pick up their own trash, cans and bottles.  he almost hit one that came drifting sideways last week while hunting... words were exchanged and he had his 9m sitting in plain sight on the center console armrest

real 'outdoorsy' types

[p51mstg]

50 minutes ago, Doug said:

SXS have been gaining places to ride along with having issues being brought up.  Alot of the 2ndary roads up Nth are gravel and routinely get graded.  SXS spinning donuts in the middle of a freshly graded road is pissing off townships and users of theses roads.  One townships closed their sections of the road and after multiple meets have agreed to give it one last chance to see if the problems go away.  

The township we're in up Nth is considering some restrictions or closing roads and also a neighboring townships is looking at closing roads.

That's been a growing problem up here, in N. Central MN - increased ATV access is great, but now we're starting to see the same problem as snowmobiles - a few rotten apples making the rest of us look bad.  If we're proactive on the ATV side, maybe we can save what we have and continue to expand.  But, if snowmobiles are a guide, this won't last and ATV access will soon be curtailed.

I don't know how to get through to the people causing problems, but we need to find a way - for the survival of both sports, snowmobile and ATV.

[krom]

38 minutes ago, p51mstg said:

That's been a growing problem up here, in N. Central MN - increased ATV access is great, but now we're starting to see the same problem as snowmobiles - a few rotten apples making the rest of us look bad.  If we're proactive on the ATV side, maybe we can save what we have and continue to expand.  But, if snowmobiles are a guide, this won't last and ATV access will soon be curtailed.

I don't know how to get through to the people causing problems, but we need to find a way - for the survival of both sports, snowmobile and ATV.

you cant get through, they don't care

[p51mstg]

23 hours ago, AK440 said:

This is a proven, well worn path to obscurity or even bankruptcy. How well is Harley doing these days? Solely marketing to aging boomers that have money is a very short term plan. An OEM always needs to grow their customer base and the way you do that is by selling entry level, low cost machines. Look at Honda, they have the biggest selection of youth and beginner dirt bikes to chose from. Yamaha does well at this too. Then look at Suzuki, they have dick. They offer a 50 & a 125 beginner bike and then unless you race motocross you switch to another brand. They aren’t doing so hot right now. There is a limited market for guys wanting a 450 MX bike.

The sled market is fucked. Who runs out an buys a pair of 200cc kids sleds at $6000 each? The vast majority of families can’t afford to get into the sport. Declining sales since 1997 tell the tale and the OEM’s putting all their focus on marketing and manufacturing $24,000 sleds is biting them in the ass and will only get worse.

I agree, but the market doesn't seem to be listening to either of us.  I submit the following exhibits to the court....

 

[Crnr2Crnr]

BRP facing similar issues... 

 

Maybe this is why the ATM stopped spitting out dollar bills for racing?   

 

 

[Crnr2Crnr]

24 minutes ago, p51mstg said:

I agree, but the market doesn't seem to be listening to either of us.  I submit the following exhibits to the court....

 

not comparing sleds, orvs, boats and pick up trucks to high end toy cars... but here's an interesting perspective regarding what happens when they focus solely on the most profitable models.

 

 

Edited December 1, 2023 by Crnr2Crnr

[krom]

1 hour ago, Crnr2Crnr said:

not comparing sleds, orvs, boats and pick up trucks to high end toy cars... but here's an interesting perspective regarding what happens when they focus solely on the most profitable models.

 

 

That's not about porsche concentrating on only high end models, its what happens when people start paying way more for a toy than it is worth, because it will be "a good investment".

Harley isn't in the position they are in from only building high end models either.  Harley dealers made their money selling a lifestyle, not motorcycles.  The dealers are what killed buell, sport bike riders didn't fit the hd lifestyle image they were selling, and they made sure that anyone interested in a buell knew they weren't welcome. 

When the "HD lifestyle" fad passed and the bandwagon riders left or quit, the only ones left are the guys with one foot in the grave.

Edited December 1, 2023 by krom

[J. Jackson]

Surprised that the V-rod hung in so long. What an abortion of a sport bike.

[Crnr2Crnr]

20 minutes ago, krom said:

That's not about porsche concentrating on only high end models, its what happens when people start paying way more for a toy than it is worth, because it will be "a good investment".

Harley isn't in the position they are in from only building high end models either.  Harley dealers made their money selling a lifestyle, not motorcycles.  The dealers are what killed buell, sport bike riders didn't fit the hd lifestyle image they were selling, and they made sure that anyone interested in a buell knew they weren't welcome. 

When the "HD lifestyle" fad passed and the bandwagon riders left or quit, the only ones left are the guys with one foot in the grave.

I know, but the manufacturer aspect is very similar.  Recall seeing multiple sleds people ordered/bought on speculation to flip over the past couple years for silly above MSRP pricing?  Facebook was flooded with them.  If my memory is correct it was Tcats, SRX's, Mach's and/or pretty much anything with a Turbo.  

$16k for a new 600 RXC is already silly... so what do you think the 858 is going to be in the same trim?  

 

Edited December 1, 2023 by Crnr2Crnr

[krom]

33 minutes ago, Crnr2Crnr said:

I know, but the manufacturer aspect is very similar.  Recall seeing multiple sleds people ordered/bought on speculation to flip over the past couple years for silly above MSRP pricing?  Facebook was flooded with them.  If my memory is correct it was Tcats, SRX's, Mach's and/or pretty much anything with a Turbo.  

$16k for a new 600 RXC is already silly... so what do you think the 858 is going to be in the same trim?  

 

textron doesn't know anything about the sled biz, but they'll price it in line with everyone else's 850

[AK440]

22 hours ago, Not greg b said:

The decline is from lack of areas to ride close to home. Even back in the late 90s you could ride from a suburban house in most of the Midwest and most people didn’t care. For the last 20 years with urban sprawl and karens you can’t do that anymore. The cost of the sled really isn’t that big of a deal. It’s the 80k truck and trailer, hotel stay, food, travel time to get there, gas in the truck, kids sports activities, ect is killing the sport. If more people had trail access from home again, the sport would grow again. But that is never going to happen again. The trail system that is close to me in Minnesota,  won’t be there in 10 years and I bet it will be less than that. 

I didn’t know things were that bad for riders in the lower 48. Having no where close to ride will absolutely kill off demand for any type of sled. 

13 hours ago, Tripleflipper said:

I can ride right from my door. Pickup groomed trails going north, south, east and west within 2 minutes. Also have a large lake right in front of me. Won't trailer anymore, can't be bothered. If I can't ride from my door sled is up for sale. Saw an article a few weeks ago that stated the average age of a snowmobiler is 54. If true, not good for the future of this sport

I read the ISMA sales report every year and that average snowmobiles age just keeps creeping up year after year. I also can ride from my house. If I couldn’t I’d just keep some old beater sleds around and wouldn’t ever buy anything new. I like to ride but not enough to have it take up a whole day of time, gas, and effort to do it. 
 

7 hours ago, p51mstg said:

That's been a growing problem up here, in N. Central MN - increased ATV access is great, but now we're starting to see the same problem as snowmobiles - a few rotten apples making the rest of us look bad.  If we're proactive on the ATV side, maybe we can save what we have and continue to expand.  But, if snowmobiles are a guide, this won't last and ATV access will soon be curtailed.

I don't know how to get through to the people causing problems, but we need to find a way - for the survival of both sports, snowmobile and ATV.

It doesn’t matter if you do talk to them. They are the same assholes that ruin every sport. They are the same drunk dickheads on jet skis, yelling at everyone at kids baseball games and now they’ve found the SxS as the perfect off-road vehicle since it comes with cup holders.

3 hours ago, Crnr2Crnr said:

not comparing sleds, orvs, boats and pick up trucks to high end toy cars... but here's an interesting perspective regarding what happens when they focus solely on the most profitable models.

 

 

I’ll have to watch that later tonight with beer in hand. It looks interesting. 
 

Edited December 2, 2023 by AK440

[Doug]

4 hours ago, krom said:

That's not about porsche concentrating on only high end models, its what happens when people start paying way more for a toy than it is worth, because it will be "a good investment".

 

LOL

Porsche = A rebranded Volkswagen 

[krom]

1 minute ago, Doug said:

LOL

Porsche = A rebranded Volkswagen 

I mean, its true

 

[airflite1]

4 hours ago, krom said:

That's not about porsche concentrating on only high end models, its what happens when people start paying way more for a toy than it is worth, because it will be "a good investment".

Harley isn't in the position they are in from only building high end models either.  Harley dealers made their money selling a lifestyle, not motorcycles.  The dealers are what killed buell, sport bike riders didn't fit the hd lifestyle image they were selling, and they made sure that anyone interested in a buell knew they weren't welcome. 

When the "HD lifestyle" fad passed and the bandwagon riders left or quit, the only ones left are the guys with one foot in the grave.

It's not always about investment, I was stunned how many people were spending way over MSRP for Bronco Raptors, Even now if you get a deal just over MSRP people think you got a good deal. The Raptor R's pricing is insane. Supply an demand. There are some Porsches that will always bring crazy numbers. 

[Doug]

8 minutes ago, airflite1 said:

It's not always about investment, I was stunned how many people were spending way over MSRP for Bronco Raptors, Even now if you get a deal just over MSRP people think you got a good deal. The Raptor R's pricing is insane. Supply an demand. There are some Porsches that will always bring crazy numbers. 

Guy I know that's in marketing and had some classic cars always advertised them in Hemmings at an absolute crazy price with no real intention of selling them. Asked him are you selling your car?  Nope but I'm making them more valuable.

The guy that doesn't know the value will pay the crazy price and tell the other guys that don't know the value how good of a deal he got.  Theses guys with liquid cash will think the car is cool and their buddy has one so will now start looking for a car.  Based off of the over price the first guy paid they will set their price point there and again over pay.  Now they have set the market price which is over priced and my cars are worth more.

Know the market before you buy.

[Not greg b]

14 hours ago, Bontz said:

@ZR6000RR - you're definitely in the minority if your trails are expanding.  I mean, hey - good for you guys and your club.  That's awesome!  But the reality is, just like everyone else is saying ... our trail systems are slowly dying as land owners shut us down.  I live in the southeast area of the state, and fortunately we still have a decent trail system because we're not part of the metro/suburbs.  But we've had our share of landowners issues where a longstanding landowner will sell (or pass away) and the new owner wants nothing to do with granting access.  A couple gift certificates and annual chicken barbeque don't cut it, I guess - even when it's our club that hold the liability.

I don't know how we morphed from Cat being in trouble to this, but based on the trail topic ... we're all in trouble if things continue the way they are.  Trespassing is ultimately going to be the downfall of our trail system down here.

 

 

Declining sales of sleds is what brought that up. If you talk to anyone that has been in any capacity at one of the sled builders for any amount of time will tell you that is what is killing sales. 

[ZR6000RR]

27 minutes ago, Not greg b said:

Declining sales of sleds is what brought that up. If you talk to anyone that has been in any capacity at one of the sled builders for any amount of time will tell you that is what is killing sales. 

Was at my dealer today. They are sold out of sleds. life goes on, regardless of the idiots and Armagedón experts. Catalyst are sweet. Between my tour and getting my 129 is within two weeks. Fuck internet jESUS.!

[Deephaven]

They could ship you a green dildo and you'd be happy.

[Crnr2Crnr]

10 hours ago, AK440 said:

 

It doesn’t matter if you do talk to them. They are the same assholes that ruin every sport. They are the same drunk dickheads on jet skis, yelling at everyone at kids baseball games and now they’ve found the SxS as the perfect off-road vehicle since it comes with cup holders.

otb  

 

8 hours ago, airflite1 said:

It's not always about investment, I was stunned how many people were spending way over MSRP for Bronco Raptors, Even now if you get a deal just over MSRP people think you got a good deal. The Raptor R's pricing is insane. Supply an demand. There are some Porsches that will always bring crazy numbers. 

Regular Broncos were getting well over MSRP.  C8 vettes as well and GM even tried culling the flip market on Z06's.  The air cooled 911's were a good investment in hindsight.  In 2005 I was looking at mint a 94 Carrera 4S widebody for $36K, which are bringing well over six figures today.  Woulda, Coulda, Shoulda...  

[racinfarmer]

12 hours ago, ZR6000RR said:

Was at my dealer today. They are sold out of sleds. life goes on, regardless of the idiots and Armagedón experts. Catalyst are sweet. Between my tour and getting my 129 is within two weeks. Fuck internet jESUS.!

He has a Catalyst RXC on his website right meow.

[krom]

11 minutes ago, racinfarmer said:

He has a Catalyst RXC on his website right meow.

you mean to say jimwit is lying again..

shocking

[racinfarmer]

3 minutes ago, krom said:

you mean to say jimwit is lying again..

shocking

I am fairly certain who his dealer is, but not 100%.

If it is the dealer I think it is, there is a 2024 RXC on their website right now.

[Not greg b]

14 hours ago, ZR6000RR said:

Was at my dealer today. They are sold out of sleds. life goes on, regardless of the idiots and Armagedón experts. Catalyst are sweet. Between my tour and getting my 129 is within two weeks. Fuck internet jESUS.!

See industry data chart posted above. Snowmobiles are dead. Yamaha used this same data to make a business decision to not pay arctic cat to build snowmobiles for them. It’s easy to sell out of anything if you only get a couple of them. 

[ZR6000RR]

1 hour ago, Not greg b said:

See industry data chart posted above. Snowmobiles are dead. Yamaha used this same data to make a business decision to not pay arctic cat to build snowmobiles for them. It’s easy to sell out of anything if you only get a couple of them. 

Had more than a couple Greg.

[Ziemann]

15 hours ago, Deephaven said:

They could ship you a green dildo and you'd be happy.