Mag6240 Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 (edited) 33 minutes ago, X2700 said: Hell I don’t think dans been around for awhile?out west i think? dealt with dans years ago when he was in shokopee yet!!! young guy running place now seems pretty knowledgeable. installed couple engines of his now and had him do some crank and cylinder work.so far so good! Yes, that’s Devin who is running the place now. He doesn’t mind chatting about some of the things he’s seen and found if you are there - been a good guy to work with. Specific to some of the first 9R’s was the center crank bearings going on them. Says he’s never seen as many of those on any other Twin. Apparently he has a fix for it, at least on the ones he is doing. Edited March 22 by Mag6240 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bontz Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 37 minutes ago, X2700 said: Hell I don’t think dans been around for awhile?out west i think? dealt with dans years ago when he was in shokopee yet!!! young guy running place now seems pretty knowledgeable. installed couple engines of his now and had him do some crank and cylinder work.so far so good! Dan's still around, but you're right - he's not running the show any longer. He was up north with a group of guys from Red Wing a couple months ago, and we chatted for a little bit. He had some stuff up there to get some testing on but the conditions didn't allow it. New blood in the shop - they seem to be doing well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnstang Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 1 hour ago, Bontz said: Not my fight, but if you've never been to Dan's shop or spoken with him .. you might be surprised. He's more than a "bolt some stuff together" guy (al la Northstar Rick). I'm not saying there aren't sharp guys out there, that's where you guys get so sensitive. Deep haven said it's a bunch of stock parts to hop something up, that's the definition of bolting stuff together, no? And even if someone's very sharp, comment still stands about the comparison to an actual engine manufacturer. It's not that hard to make fix kits. The fact that some of these kits brag about using "stock parts" proves my point further. Saying that infers reliability to people for a reason. If it didn't they wouldn't say it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X2700 Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 7 hours ago, Crnr2Crnr said: @hayward disagrees... Black Magic, Speedwerx, D&D all made some cool Cat enhancers, didn't they? I wouldn't ever do it to a brand new sled, but an older sled with some miles you enjoy or love in need of a top end refresh owned or bought reasonably... then maybe¿? The biggest shortcoming with the aftermarket kits is support after the sale years down the road. Example, I almost bought a D&D 602 SP two summers ago for a good price but after doing my rEsEArch to freshen it with 'stock' 600 pistons requires machining to the bottom of the piston which the average guy isn't going to do in his garage and sending the jugs to my friend in PA. So I walked on that one as I already have one of those 'on occasion' sleds but put 5x more miles on the uber reliable stocker as engine parts for that are still readily available and I have a complete spare top end for it (or the m0d) on the shelf... thanks again for that@krom Black magic!!😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bontz Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 9 minutes ago, mnstang said: I'm not saying there aren't sharp guys out there, that's where you guys get so sensitive. Deep haven said it's a bunch of stock parts to hop something up, that's the definition of bolting stuff together, no? And even if someone's very sharp, comment still stands about the comparison to an actual engine manufacturer. It's not that hard to make fix kits. The fact that some of these kits brag about using "stock parts" proves my point further. Saying that infers reliability to people for a reason. If it didn't they wouldn't say it. Like I said, not my fight - so no big deal. I guess my takeaway is, what's considered stock parts to hop something up vs. a CNC shop that literally mills engine and clutching components? I dunno - I just don't put Dan in the same league as someone like, Tricky Ricky, for example Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crnr2Crnr Posted March 22 Author Share Posted March 22 3 minutes ago, X2700 said: Black magic!!😂 You must not spend much time in the FB Cat race sled group... highly regarded and lots of $$$ gets exchanged to keep BM sleds and engines alive. I think it's cool though because I'm weird and have disposable income not wasted on a new sled... or other things Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deephaven Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 1 hour ago, Bontz said: Not my fight, but if you've never been to Dan's shop or spoken with him .. you might be surprised. He's more than a "bolt some stuff together" guy (al la Northstar Rick). He is using STOCK parts outside of a billet head. Anyone thinking a billet head is a downgrade must be in the "know". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X2700 Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 8 minutes ago, Crnr2Crnr said: You must not spend much time in the FB Cat race sled group... highly regarded and lots of $$$ gets exchanged to keep BM sleds and engines alive. I think it's cool though because I'm weird and have disposable income not wasted on a new sled... or other things just had to throw that in!!back in early 90's black magic was what everyone was running on the 580's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deephaven Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 29 minutes ago, mnstang said: Deep haven said it's a bunch of stock parts to hop something up, that's the definition of bolting stuff together, no? His 9R is exactly a Polaris 9R but assembled by a real engine builder instead of some hourly employees. Exception being the billet head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crnr2Crnr Posted March 22 Author Share Posted March 22 4 minutes ago, X2700 said: just had to throw that in!!back in early 90's black magic was what everyone was running on the 580's. no love for the 711 ? and not the conviencce store Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommcat Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 5 hours ago, Crnr2Crnr said: thankfully Northstar Rick has a fix kit for the bearing. Lol 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommcat Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 I've never been a speederx fan and definitely not D&D, but Black Magic had great products back in the day, and even great customer support to go with it. Same for SLP when Jim was there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krom Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 (edited) 1 hour ago, mnstang said: I'm not saying there aren't sharp guys out there, that's where you guys get so sensitive. Deep haven said it's a bunch of stock parts to hop something up, that's the definition of bolting stuff together, no? And even if someone's very sharp, comment still stands about the comparison to an actual engine manufacturer. It's not that hard to make fix kits. The fact that some of these kits brag about using "stock parts" proves my point further. Saying that infers reliability to people for a reason. If it didn't they wouldn't say it. You vastly over rate some of the factory engine guys.. Just look at the abortion that was the poo 800. With what textron has done to the engineering, calibration, and test dept at ac, there are several shops with more experience and knowledge. It's a dam good thing Spaulding agreed to come back as a consultant after being fired. The good thing about using oem parts is low cost and availability, nothing to do with reliability... Edited March 22 by krom 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 What changed the performance as far as trail sleds is the the further development of the EQU and the fail safes that are now incorporated. Some reflash performance tunes are nothing more than to let the motor run closer to the edge. In the old days with carbs ran sleds so lean that as soon as you went past the radar gun or crossed the finish line you were grabbing the chock to get fuel in the motor to cool it down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommcat Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 1 minute ago, Doug said: What changed the performance as far as trail sleds is the the further development of the EQU and the fail safes that are now incorporated. Some reflash performance tunes are nothing more than to let the motor run closer to the edge. In the old days with carbs ran sleds so lean that as soon as you went past the radar gun or crossed the finish line you were grabbing the chock to get fuel in the motor to cool it down. the engine management systems are still decades behind the automotive world, so there is a lot to be gained in the future factory systems, but also a lot to be gained from a current tuner coming from the car world. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 10 minutes ago, Tommcat said: I've never been a speederx fan and definitely not D&D, but Black Magic had great products back in the day, and even great customer support to go with it. Same for SLP when Jim was there. Jim at SLP was good to work with back in the day. Have one of there RZ reed vavle motors in a sled. There was alway Bruce at PSI. His stuff was hit or miss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommcat Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 Just now, Doug said: Jim at SLP was good to work with back in the day. Have one of there RZ reed vavle motors in a sled. There was alway Bruce at PSI. His stuff was hit or miss. Psi was a miss on every combo i personally saw, but i know the early stuff ran strong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krom Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 1 minute ago, Tommcat said: Psi was a miss on every combo i personally saw, but i know the early stuff ran strong Bruce moved from ripping off sledders, to ripping off harley guys. I'm hoping it worked out the way I think it did Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 3 minutes ago, Tommcat said: Psi was a miss on every combo i personally saw, but i know the early stuff ran strong Bruce was actually good with motors but let the business and his employees get away from him. Toward the end PSI stood for Pot Smoking Idiots. Not paying taxes didn’t help either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnstang Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 6 minutes ago, krom said: You vastly over rate some of the factory engine guys.. Just look at the abortion that was the poo 800. With what textron has done to the engineering, calibration, and test dept at ac, there are several shops with more experience and knowledge. It's a dam good thing Spaulding agreed to come back as a consultant after being fired. The good thing about using oem parts is low cost and availability, nothing to do with reliability... Well you should tell everyone the OEM thing isn't a reliability advantage, because that was the sentiment just a few posts up. Sure there's outliers like the Polaris 800 that were maybe less reliable than the norm but I'd argue that's still in a different league compared to the aftermarket. Just imagine if an aftermarket had to make an engine from scratch and they'd have to understand the materials to use and where, the tolerances, the proper sizes and ratios for different parts and reasons behind it, the ways to build things so they go through all the ranges of heat and warming up at different rates. (Forged piston 4 corner seizure, bueller?). There are things that successful engine builders know that you only know if you've ever built engines and gone through it many times over. Experience matters in every profession. That's why I think doing hop ups is one thing but getting into aftermarket cylinders, changing the design of the motor, is a complete roll of the dice because these people just don't know. Anyone who has expertise at something has seen people that think they have it figured out but are so entry level that they don't even know what they don't know. And they're the most dangerous people for that reason. I don't claim to know but I think I know when to defer to the experts. There's a guy making Z pro pistons for all the years but when I asked how that can be when OEM used 3 pistons in those years and what the difference was he didn't even know the difference and I'm not ragging on the guy maybe the differences are inconsequential but like I said you don't know what you don't know. You have anecdotal evidence because you ran a big bore f7 at 9200 rpm and it didn't explode. I'd bet alot that the Polaris 800 is still way way more reliable than your big bore was, at scale. I'm not saying anything is bad to do if you're accepting the risk I just find it funny people think an SSI big bore 900 kit slapped on a 600 will be just as good as an oem motor. It's a giant risk in comparison. If you can't see that then we just disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krom Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 No doubt there are hacks out there, but the oem's don't have all the answers either. When you talk about materials, and clearances, most of that is cookie cutter, and takes as much real engineering as jimwit does at his job (none). The processes and materials are well known. The oem's don't make their own cranks, or cast any parts in-house, there are a hand full of companies around the world that make that stuff. The "magic" (hp and reliability) comes from the ports, pipe(s) and tuning As far as SSI, I can't comment on the reliability, but I know of 2 that got put on the dyno, and both struggled to beat a stock 800 for hp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racinfarmer Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 3 hours ago, Crnr2Crnr said: You must not spend much time in the FB Cat race sled group... highly regarded and lots of $$$ gets exchanged to keep BM sleds and engines alive. I think it's cool though because I'm weird and have disposable income not wasted on a new sled... or other things Wonder what a Black Tragic 711 EFI is worth, lock stock and barrel to drop into an 2000 or 2001 Sno Pro sled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crnr2Crnr Posted March 23 Author Share Posted March 23 Just now, racinfarmer said: Wonder what a Black Tragic 711 EFI is worth, lock stock and barrel to drop into an 2000 or 2001 Sno Pro sled. pm me if you want a link... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racinfarmer Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 4 minutes ago, Crnr2Crnr said: pm me if you want a link... I gotst some of the purple cocaines. I'd be a seller not a buyer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 25 minutes ago, krom said: No doubt there are hacks out there, but the oem's don't have all the answers either. When you talk about materials, and clearances, most of that is cookie cutter, and takes as much real engineering as jimwit does at his job (none). The processes and materials are well known. The oem's don't make their own cranks, or cast any parts in-house, there are a hand full of companies around the world that make that stuff. Mercury Marines aluminum foundery does a lot of work for OEM'S. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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