new cat big bore ...

[krom]

9 minutes ago, jonlafon1 said:

My 2021 800 was either hitting the rev limiter or something? I could pull around 8500 rpm or so until I loaded it.  It was cutting fuel or timing up the ass.. Mid range was super easy to get it to fall on its face.. Once I put adjustable in it stopped.. I was assuming it was the rev limiter?  maybe not?

5500 RPM or so had a bad lean spot that made it super jumpy and very hard to drive at slower speeds . 

The exact same issue is what caused so many 400's to blow up.

Worst part of both was textron didn't do a goddammed thing about it until well after the season was over, despite running out of parts.  Insider even posted a writeup on adding pennies to the 400 clutch. 
I was pulling good pistons and cylinders off of blown up 800's to piece together blasts, and other blown up 800s.
 

Edited September 19, 2023 by krom

[mnstang]

1 minute ago, krom said:

Power drops like a rock that high up in rpm, the clutching had a fair amount do do with the engine failures too, as at part throttle lower speed, it put the engine in a tps/rpm/load area of the map that had too much timing, and too little fuel, it would sound like a piston was trying to go out the belly pan.

My 19 was bad at that.  Putting heavier weights in helped take care of most of it.  I always thought about tweaking the tps but never did.  It seemed better when exhaust temp was over 600 too.  Also when you'd stab the throttle as fast as you possibly can from a low speed there would be a split second hiccup.  If you'd pin it like a sane person it would be fine but I wasn't a fan of that.  I liked the motor quite a bit but they could have done better on the mapping especially that low speed lean thing where it'd feel like it was fighting itself.

[jonlafon1]

1 minute ago, krom said:

The exact same issue is what caused so many 400's to blow up.

Worst part of both was textron didn't do a goddammed thing about it until well after the season was over, despite running out of parts.  Insider even posted a writeup on adding pennies to the clutch. 
I was pulling good pistons and cylinders off of blown up 800's to piece together blasts, and other blown up 800s.
 

Yup I have a friend that that had this exact thing on his blast!  They were WAY LIGHT

[krom]

1 minute ago, jonlafon1 said:

Yup I have a friend that that had this exact thing on his blast!  They were WAY LIGHT

The "old AC" would have had a fix out by new years, but textron waited until april or may for the 400, and way later for the 800 re-map (that didn't completely take care of the part throttle bad spot), they never did anything about the clutching.  Really screwed customers and dealers.

[jonlafon1]

The average guy just gas and go.. Probably hammering it and or holding in that mid range 5500 rpm or so and bang!.  I tried everything to try and get that 2021 right for the wife.. It was just to jumpy when trails got really rough and running slower speeds through he twisters.. I flashed it i tried different springs in both clutches to try and stay out of the mid range messy spot.. She loved the handling and top end 101 speedo 95 GPS but around 20-25 it was a messy terd.

[mnstang]

1 minute ago, jonlafon1 said:

Yup I have a friend that that had this exact thing on his blast!  They were WAY LIGHT

My 19 I went to 74 gram team weights because that was as heavy as they had.  It still over revved but was was better and for a off trail high country I like lighter clutching to keep it responsive but could have still went another couple grams and been fine.  It was way over revved out of the box lol at least it makes you feel like you have a ripper!  Haha 

[krom]

5 minutes ago, jonlafon1 said:

The average guy just gas and go.. Probably hammering it and or holding in that mid range 5500 rpm or so and bang!.  I tried everything to try and get that 2021 right for the wife.. It was just to jumpy when trails got really rough and running slower speeds through he twisters.. I flashed it i tried different springs in both clutches to try and stay out of the mid range messy spot.. She loved the handling and top end 101 speedo 95 GPS but around 20-25 it was a messy terd.

Had 2 riots that came from out of state dealers, both grenaded engines at low speed on the first or second ride, one guy went through 2 engines in 500 miles before dumping the sled for a loss.  Textron refused to do anything until the reflash was anounced months later, and never did anything about clutching, for any of the sleds we replaced engines on, or rebuilt.

 

5 minutes ago, mnstang said:

My 19 I went to 74 gram team weights because that was as heavy as they had.  It still over revved but was was better and for a off trail high country I like lighter clutching to keep it responsive but could have still went another couple grams and been fine.  It was way over revved out of the box lol at least it makes you feel like you have a ripper!  Haha 

20 was way, way worse, 21 was embarrassing, it literally sounded like it was rattling to death at 30ish mph

Edited September 19, 2023 by krom

[jonlafon1]

11 minutes ago, mnstang said:

My 19 I went to 74 gram team weights because that was as heavy as they had.  It still over revved but was was better and for a off trail high country I like lighter clutching to keep it responsive but could have still went another couple grams and been fine.  It was way over revved out of the box lol at least it makes you feel like you have a ripper!  Haha 

Yes.. Cat over the years has just missed them a lot on the light side.. Got to think about the customer that just rides them!  Gas and go and not really mechanically inclined to understand what that sound and weird feeling of the motor falling on its face was?  The average guy just rides them and pounds them some.. Got to clutch em right for the gas and go guy.. I bleed green and always will but can they find someone factory to do the clutching?  Its as if they never test them or don't take into account that they should under rev ever so slightly NEW.. Then the motor loosens up and it revs a little more.. Seen many 4 smokers take 2-3 grams after 2500 miles or so.. They loosen up and take a little more weight then 2 smokes. But you cant start 3-5 grams light on a tight new motor. OR completely shit the bed on the fuel map/HP curve. 

Edited September 19, 2023 by jonlafon1

[jonlafon1]

7 minutes ago, krom said:

Had 2 riots that came from out of state dealers, both grenaded engines at low speed on the first or second ride, one guy went through 2 engines in 500 miles before dumping the sled for a loss.  Textron refused to do anything until the reflash was anounced months later, and never did anything about clutching, for any of the sleds we replaced engines on, or rebuilt.

 

20 was way, way worse, 21 was embarrassing, it literally sounded like it was rattling to death at 30ish mph

That's embarrassing. Back years ago they backed product coming out of TRF.  And the dealers were good about supporting the sleds.. Guessing you know this all ready obviously. 

[krom]

26 minutes ago, jonlafon1 said:

That's embarrassing. Back years ago they backed product coming out of TRF.  And the dealers were good about supporting the sleds.. Guessing you know this all ready obviously. 

before textron we could tell customers, in good faith, that if an issue came up on something that shouldn't break that AC would help them out, even well out of warranty. 

The absolutely stood behind the product, covering parts and labor on things way out of warranty.  Engines, clutches, cracked heat exchangers.  We had times that they sent us no charge parts out of salvage for stuff 2 or 3 years out of warranty.

It took a couple of years for textron to completely kill that, for a bit they took care of cracking team clutches.  But that has all stopped.  If you are more than a few days out of warranty, go pound sand. 

Customers are real happy to find out that the part they need to fix the machine that they are still making payments on has been discontinued.

Any one who owns an ac built SXS with the team transaxle is basically SOL.  Parts are becoming NLA, if you have warranty it will cover replacing the entire trans with the new suppliers version, if not you get to try and find used parts, or pay full shot for the entire trans

Edited September 19, 2023 by krom

[Palu49]

58 minutes ago, krom said:

@Palu49 didn't have much luck with his, and knows the 2 I'm talking about below.

My only 600 was an rxc, '16 maybe, but I know for a fact was a slug, top speed on the lake holding till I was bored, and it only managed in the mid 80's. Eventually I was able to get the ecu flashed to an actual race department tune, and it got about 90 or so.
A mutual friend of ours has one that can't make much more than 500-600 miles on a belt.  That has a newer secondary because the splines on the jackshaft and clutch wore each other out.

My sled was a complete shit heap so I can’t say much about all of them. I think joes 17 did like 86 wide open, I should’ve bought that one since you know it was never ridden hard. 86 would’ve been a helluva lot more competitive than 74 though. I never tested my sled after I found that rubber bushing mount deal on the tcl (where it bolts to the tunnel) blown out but that was the only big issue I ended up finding in the clutching area, don’t know if it could cause that or not. I also threw 4 different setups at it and got the same results at different rpms each time so I think the issue was somewhere else in the driveline, the driveline that was all brand new besides the TCL.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, jonlafon1 said:

IF they nail the clutching> The "little" 600 will give fits for the 800 class guys up to 80. 

Maybe the 800 Cats 

I don't know if you've ever watched a friendly drag race but there isn't a stock 600 sled out now that will give an 800 sled with 25+ hp more any fits at all 0-80.Same goes for every straight stretch and the extra torque just pulls out of the corners WAYYYYYYYYY harder. That old song has been over sung 

[racinfarmer]

1 hour ago, krom said:

@Palu49 didn't have much luck with his, and knows the 2 I'm talking about below.

My only 600 was an rxc, '16 maybe, but I know for a fact was a slug, top speed on the lake holding till I was bored, and it only managed in the mid 80's. Eventually I was able to get the ecu flashed to an actual race department tune, and it got about 90 or so.
A mutual friend of ours has one that can't make much more than 500-600 miles on a belt.  That has a newer secondary because the splines on the jackshaft and clutch wore each other out.

Sounds like a 16. 

They were either fast or dog ass slow.  I bought 2 that year. 

The ice sled I could never get above maybe 90. 

The terrain sled got passed like it was towing a boat anchor by a ZR4000 on the river.  I bet that one never broke 70 when I owned it. 

Left it up north a couple times and pitched it before the year was over. 

32 minutes ago, Palu49 said:

My sled was a complete shit heap so I can’t say much about all of them. I think joes 17 did like 86 wide open, I should’ve bought that one since you know it was never ridden hard. 86 would’ve been a helluva lot more competitive than 74 though. I never tested my sled after I found that rubber bushing mount deal on the tcl (where it bolts to the tunnel) blown out but that was the only big issue I ended up finding in the clutching area, don’t know if it could cause that or not. I also threw 4 different setups at it and got the same results at different rpms each time so I think the issue was somewhere else in the driveline, the driveline that was all brand new besides the TCL.

Seat of the pants, I think my 18's were the fastest of the bunch I've had.

[jonlafon1]

16 minutes ago, HSR said:

there isn't a stock 600 sled out now

Agree.. That's about to change though  .. I will stick with my statement about the clutching and 80 MPH. 800 class 2 smoke non boosted.   We will see what the production sled brings. But I can understand why most will say 

[Crnr2Crnr]

59 minutes ago, Palu49 said:

My sled was a complete shit heap so I can’t say much about all of them. I think joes 17 did like 86 wide open, I should’ve bought that one since you know it was never ridden hard. 86 would’ve been a helluva lot more competitive than 74 though. I never tested my sled after I found that rubber bushing mount deal on the tcl (where it bolts to the tunnel) blown out but that was the only big issue I ended up finding in the clutching area, don’t know if it could cause that or not. I also threw 4 different setups at it and got the same results at different rpms each time so I think the issue was somewhere else in the driveline, the driveline that was all brand new besides the TCL.

saw 91-92 speedo on my brothers 21 RXC last winter before it grenaded.  one cylinder had a bit longer stroke so we'll have to see what it does this year with a brand new mill.  clutching on his seems spot on.

 

[krom]

6 minutes ago, Crnr2Crnr said:

saw 91-92 speedo on my brothers 21 RXC last winter before it grenaded.  one cylinder had a bit longer stroke so we'll have to see what it does this year with a brand new mill.  clutching on his seems spot on.

 

Even though I've seen the pictures, of that one, and have rebuilt others. I don't believe it blew up, jimwit says that is impossible 

[mnstang]

1 hour ago, HSR said:

Maybe the 800 Cats 

I don't know if you've ever watched a friendly drag race but there isn't a stock 600 sled out now that will give an 800 sled with 25+ hp more any fits at all 0-80.Same goes for every straight stretch and the extra torque just pulls out of the corners WAYYYYYYYYY harder. That old song has been over sung 

800's are not faster in corners 

[Deephaven]

2 minutes ago, mnstang said:

800's are not faster in corners 

600s aren't safer in blind corners

[mnstang]

2 minutes ago, Deephaven said:

600s aren't safer in blind corners

Ok

[Deephaven]

The go faster in corner thing is hilarious.  That's what we want and need everyone to do.  Go as fast as you can in blind corners.  Hell use the left side of the trail as well. 

[Guest]

33 minutes ago, mnstang said:

800's are not faster in corners 

If Polaris and SD 600's had 800 class hp and torque do you think the 600 catalyst could compete in any form of sled racing?

Vintage class?

[Not greg b]

2 hours ago, krom said:

before textron we could tell customers, in good faith, that if an issue came up on something that shouldn't break that AC would help them out, even well out of warranty. 

The absolutely stood behind the product, covering parts and labor on things way out of warranty.  Engines, clutches, cracked heat exchangers.  We had times that they sent us no charge parts out of salvage for stuff 2 or 3 years out of warranty.

It took a couple of years for textron to completely kill that, for a bit they took care of cracking team clutches.  But that has all stopped.  If you are more than a few days out of warranty, go pound sand. 

Customers are real happy to find out that the part they need to fix the machine that they are still making payments on has been discontinued.

Any one who owns an ac built SXS with the team transaxle is basically SOL.  Parts are becoming NLA, if you have warranty it will cover replacing the entire trans with the new suppliers version, if not you get to try and find used parts, or pay full shot for the entire trans

They are very good at that. I have many stories with how they do warranty. I could see them not giving a shit as a sled is so inexpensive compared to their other things. 

[mnstang]

55 minutes ago, HSR said:

If Polaris and SD 600's had 800 class hp and torque do you think the 600 catalyst could compete in any form of sled racing?

Vintage class?

I try to limit arguing with retards to one or two posts a day.  Sorry.

[Premium]

3 hours ago, krom said:

before textron we could tell customers, in good faith, that if an issue came up on something that shouldn't break that AC would help them out, even well out of warranty. 

The absolutely stood behind the product, covering parts and labor on things way out of warranty.  Engines, clutches, cracked heat exchangers.  We had times that they sent us no charge parts out of salvage for stuff 2 or 3 years out of warranty.

It took a couple of years for textron to completely kill that, for a bit they took care of cracking team clutches.  But that has all stopped.  If you are more than a few days out of warranty, go pound sand. 

Customers are real happy to find out that the part they need to fix the machine that they are still making payments on has been discontinued.

Any one who owns an ac built SXS with the team transaxle is basically SOL.  Parts are becoming NLA, if you have warranty it will cover replacing the entire trans with the new suppliers version, if not you get to try and find used parts, or pay full shot for the entire trans

*Waiting for the Textron loyalists to swiftly refute your claims via exceptional keyboard denial-ism

[Not greg b]

14 minutes ago, Premium said:

*Waiting for the Textron loyalists to swiftly refute your claims via exceptional keyboard denial-ism

The catalyst actually should be really well. When textron does something it will be bad ass. The problem is, their back support sucks. I wouldn’t be surprised if they are the first ones that have an electric sled sled that owns everything.