Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted May 13, 2021 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted May 13, 2021 10 hours ago, motonoggin said: Humanity has been around at least 10,000 years. Capitalism has only been around like 500 years or so, and has only achieved dominance over the planet for about 200 years. Regardless, we've always invented better and better ways to organize civil society. This isn't the end of that evolution. It's silly to believe otherwise. Honestly I admire your faith in humanity to evolve into this utopia where everyone contributes and society simply organizes and operates itself on its own solely for the betterment of that society however that faith is misguided. The contributors will always get sick and tired of those capable of contributing but simply won't. Reality is those society's fail because the contributors finally give up. The early pilgrim's tried a communal system and almost died out because of it. http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/fischer/171122 I see no reason why you cannot start your own little community that practices these "real communism" ideals. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irv Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 1 minute ago, Highmark said: Honestly I admire your faith in humanity to evolve into this utopia where everyone contributes and society simply organizes and operates itself on its own solely for the betterment of that society however that faith is misguided. The contributors will always get sick and tired of those capable of contributing but simply won't. Reality is those society's fail because the contributors finally give up. The early pilgrim's tried a communal system and almost died out because of it. http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/fischer/171122 I see no reason why you cannot start your own little community that practices these "real communism" ideals. I'm thinking he should move to China then post how idyllic it is there from there. I'm sure sites like Freedom Sledder are no problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Skidooski Posted May 13, 2021 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted May 13, 2021 4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 10 minutes ago, irv said: I'm thinking he should move to China then post how idyllic it is there from there. I'm sure sites like Freedom Sledder are no problem. What's China got to do with anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted May 13, 2021 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted May 13, 2021 1 minute ago, irv said: I'm thinking he should move to China then post how idyllic it is there from there. I'm sure sites like Freedom Sledder are no problem. It cannot be explained any better than this. “Well first of all, tell me: Is there some society you know that doesn’t run on greed? You think Russia doesn’t run on greed? You think China doesn’t run on greed? What is greed? Of course, none of us are greedy, it’s only the other fellow who’s greedy. The world runs on individuals pursuing their separate interests. The great achievements of civilization have not come from government bureaus. Einstein didn’t construct his theory under order from a bureaucrat. Henry Ford didn’t revolutionize the automobile industry that way. In the only cases in which the masses have escaped from the kind of grinding poverty you’re talking about, the only cases in recorded history, are where they have had capitalism and largely free trade. If you want to know where the masses are worse off, worst off, it’s exactly in the kinds of societies that depart from that. So that the record of history is absolutely crystal clear, that there is no alternative way so far discovered of improving the lot of the ordinary people that can hold a candle to the productive activities that are unleashed by the free-enterprise system.” 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted May 13, 2021 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted May 13, 2021 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zambroski Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 1 hour ago, Skidooski said: Excellent show. I was watching some the night before last. (Good idea too) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anler Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 2 hours ago, motonoggin said: #capitalists attacking socialism by describing capitalism. again #communists forcing people to give up their property is not freedom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anler Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 52 minutes ago, Highmark said: Honestly I admire your faith in humanity to evolve into this utopia where everyone contributes and society simply organizes and operates itself on its own solely for the betterment of that society however that faith is misguided. The contributors will always get sick and tired of those capable of contributing but simply won't. Reality is those society's fail because the contributors finally give up. The early pilgrim's tried a communal system and almost died out because of it. http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/fischer/171122 I see no reason why you cannot start your own little community that practices these "real communism" ideals. I am still waiting for an example of successful communism... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irv Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 23 minutes ago, Anler said: I am still waiting for an example of successful communism... Has there ever been a stateless, moneyless, classless society? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anler Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 1 minute ago, motonoggin said: Has there ever been a stateless, moneyless, classless society? I am sure the native americans had something like that. Not something I am interested in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zambroski Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 1 hour ago, motonoggin said: Has there ever been a stateless, moneyless, classless society? No. Never will be either.....in any part of the animal world. It's genetically impossible and evolution doesn't allow for digression in any species. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zambroski Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 1 hour ago, Anler said: I am sure the native americans had something like that. Not something I am interested in Not even them. Each tribe technically had a "state", "trading currency" and most certainly had "classes". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zambroski Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 1 hour ago, irv said: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 10 minutes ago, Anler said: I am sure the native americans had something like that. Not something I am interested in 3 minutes ago, Zambroski said: No. Never will be either.....in any part of the animal world. It's genetically impossible and evolution doesn't allow for digression in any species. It's probably fortunate for humanity that this kind of mentality is dying with the boomers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zambroski Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 59 minutes ago, motonoggin said: It's probably fortunate for humanity that this kind of mentality is dying with the boomers Intelligence? Yes, we're certainly breeding intellectual dishonesty in masses never before seen...well, maybe the Germans pre-1940 but, as a whole, going backwards just won't work. There's too many examples of just exactly how bad your ideas are and the "it's never been truly done before' narrative is just silly rhetoric to most. You know this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted May 13, 2021 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted May 13, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, motonoggin said: Has there ever been a stateless, moneyless, classless society? Even in a so called moneyless society it would still need a form of capitalism to work where labor or goods are traded in place of money. "Money" just simplifies the transactions and nobody likes the way the govt/central bank manipulates it. Even in cases of native American's where no money was involved there was the reality of a "state" (Tribes) and classes (Chiefs, medicine man, warriors etc..) Its mother nature and goes on in almost every species from lions, to apes, to whitetail deer to mankind. The idea where a human society can be without decision makers both in the form of govt and private sector is simply not attainable and never will be. I'm all for limiting those positions when feasible but one needs to be realistic and understand they have to be there. Edited May 13, 2021 by Highmark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry ginger Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 19 hours ago, Anler said: Yeah well the soviets stole German scientists and engineers at the end of WW2 and then threw them in labs to work. Basically prisoners so yeah they advanced militarily while most of their country starved and lived in poverty. Sounds great... I would like to see the great examples of communism and achievement in the last several thousand years, there has to be at least one, right @motonoggin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 2 hours ago, Highmark said: Even in a so called moneyless society it would still need a form of capitalism to work where labor or goods are traded in place of money. "Money" just simplifies the transactions and nobody likes the way the govt/central bank manipulates it. Even in cases of native American's where no money was involved there was the reality of a "state" (Tribes) and classes (Chiefs, medicine man, warriors etc..) Its mother nature and goes on in almost every species from lions, to apes, to whitetail deer to mankind. The idea where a human society can be without decision makers both in the form of govt and private sector is simply not attainable and never will be. I'm all for limiting those positions when feasible but one needs to be realistic and understand they have to be there. Capitalism isn't a market, it's a factory. Markets can exist and have existed without capitalism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted May 13, 2021 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted May 13, 2021 (edited) 18 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Capitalism isn't a market, it's a factory. Markets can exist and have existed without capitalism. Capitalism is a economic system of "free" markets. You can have employee owned companies in free market capitalism. cap•i•tal•is•m kăp′ĭ-tl-ĭz″əm n. An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development occurs through the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market. Please provide an example of the markets you mention. Edited May 13, 2021 by Highmark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fireball 440 Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 There is no such thing as a free market. But my point was you don't need capitalism to have a market. Not that capitalism functions without a market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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