Snocross 2025

[Premium]

13 hours ago, mnstang said:

Are you trying to say moving the jackshaft will move the whole engine? 

Not at all. I think a better word than "maintained" like the article used would be "managed." As you pointed out, since the bearing at the TCL is also self-aligning there's movement in multiple places. Speaking to what I believe was the theory behind the design, they are simply "managing" the alignment issues of a twisting motor in a unique way.

The only thing that's changed in the catalyst TCL system is the belt setup, so assuming the beltcase settings can offer parallelism between the primary and secondary it should operate just as effectively and reliably as it has the last decade in the procross (on the clutch side at least). The final belt drive is another story.

I'm going to be an optimist on this and trust that my new 858 will be perfect right out of the box . But I'm also not naive enough to believe it's impossible that this design is flawed given all the initial driveline problems with the Procross.

[MnDean]

On 10/9/2024 at 10:39 AM, fortune46x said:

So this will be a long one...

When the eccentric lifts the jackshaft up to tension the final drive belt it allows the jack shaft to rotate in the spherical bearing and pull the clutch out of parallelism. The eccentric difference between the two center positions is .118 apart (2 degrees over the span of the jackshaft) Using the bearings center as a datum , if you draw a line that is 10" long (just using generic numbers I've not measured the jackshaft length or the clutch diameter) it puts the end point of the line at .008" out from its flat position on center. now if you have a 15" diameter clutch that .008" dimension gets amplified at 7.5" on center to show that the clutch moves out on the top .287" and in on the bottom in .287"  causing the clutch to be side loaded which explains all the belt dust those who have put time in on the sleds have seen.

Now... throw high horsepower into the mix... as the engine clamps down on the belt and it trys to pull itself straight - the case aluminum case between the two drive pulleys will flex over a steel jackshaft - bending the chain case. which is what Riley and Dave saw when testing the 858 out west. Apparently the turbo 600s saw this same issue.

This is also why Herf didn't run a catalyst at the soo i500 - they couldn't get the speed out of it it would hit a wall no matter what clutching they had thrown at it - you cant shift a sled out when it cannot overcome a misalignment of this magnitude.

 

 

This seems confusing to me, isn't the fixed pivot point on the PTO side? And the eccentric belt adjuster is on the mag side.

By my math .118÷10=.0118 the tangent of the angle, inverse tangent = .68 degrees.  Tangent of .68 degrees x 7.5 would equal .089 instead of the .287 you have on your drawing.

I'm sure someone will come along and tell me something different.  But even if you plugged more releastic numbers into your drawing, the alignment issue would be magnified even more than the .287 out of parallelism.

[MnDean]

My drawings on the eccentric adjuster,But with the fixed pivot point on the PTO side.

Using the numbers fortune46x used with a 10" CTC on the jackshaft bearings and some different numbers for CTC and the driven clutch diameter. I don't believe that the eccentric adjuster miss aligns the clutchs that much. 

 

 

 

[mnstang]

On 10/11/2024 at 10:13 AM, MnDean said:

My drawings on the eccentric adjuster,But with the fixed pivot point on the PTO side.

Using the numbers fortune46x used with a 10" CTC on the jackshaft bearings and some different numbers for CTC and the driven clutch diameter. I don't believe that the eccentric adjuster miss aligns the clutchs that much. 

 

 

 

And my point was, it is highly likely it's designed to be "true" when in the position that the machine operates in.

For some reason people are assuming it's true when in the service position and then the tightening procedure moves it out of alignment.  Jokes aside, nobody would design a system that way.

[krom]

3 minutes ago, mnstang said:

And my point was, it is highly likely it's designed to be "true" when in the position that the machine operates in.

For some reason people are assuming it's true when in the service position and then the tightening procedure moves it out of alignment.  Jokes aside, nobody would design a system that way.

fwiw there is more than one "operating position", and it can't be true in all of them unless there is an adjuster on the pto end.

[mnstang]

36 minutes ago, krom said:

fwiw there is more than one "operating position", and it can't be true in all of them unless there is an adjuster on the pto end.

Yes I realize that.  But each model will only use one position unless they modify their gear ratio and need to use an optional position for that.  My point was just there's a lot of assuming going on.

[MnDean]

1 hour ago, mnstang said:

And my point was, it is highly likely it's designed to be "true" when in the position that the machine operates in.

For some reason people are assuming it's true when in the service position and then the tightening procedure moves it out of alignment.  Jokes aside, nobody would design a system that way.

Agreed,  but even if it wasn't designed to be true when the adjuster is tight,  it wouldn't be enough to worry  about. 

.044 would be the worst case scenario if the 16" bearing center is used, but I'm betting that number is short.

[Crnr2Crnr]

"Now... throw high horsepower into the mix... as the engine clamps down on the belt and it tries to pull itself straight - the case aluminum case between the two drive pulleys will flex over a steel jackshaft - bending the chain case. which is what Riley and Dave saw when testing the 858 out west. Apparently the turbo 600s saw this same issue."

https://www.freedomsledder.com/index.php?/topic/67587-snocross-2025/&do=findComment&comment=1812618

 

 

[krom]

[Zambroski]

It's gonna be a sea of yellow with red waves out there.  Sad.  But I must say, I'm on my second RS now and it's hard to deny it's abilities.

[Not greg b]

1 hour ago, Zambroski said:

It's gonna be a sea of yellow with red waves out there.  Sad.  But I must say, I'm on my second RS now and it's hard to deny it's abilities.

I will mail you a can of green paint so you can re live the good old days with your rs

[Premium]

2 hours ago, krom said:

Does Mike Kloety still have a job or did Textron fire him too?

[AK440]

Sweet! The closer it gets to just two brands the quicker sno-x will die and the industry can focus on cross country racing. 

[Not greg b]

3 hours ago, Premium said:

Does Mike Kloety still have a job or did Textron fire him too?

Wait about 2 weeks. This usually when textron makes more changes in that division. 

[krom]

4 hours ago, Premium said:

Does Mike Kloety still have a job or did Textron fire him too?

He is the entire race department

[Crnr2Crnr]

19 hours ago, krom said:

they must want to be competitive... weird? 

18 hours ago, Zambroski said:

It's gonna be a sea of yellow with red waves out there.  Sad.  But I must say, I'm on my second RS now and it's hard to deny it's abilities.

little less red wave this year as well... might look more like the old killer bee's days

12 hours ago, krom said:

He is the entire race department

depressing...

 

[Zambroski]

16 hours ago, AK440 said:

Sweet! The closer it gets to just two brands the quicker sno-x will die and the industry can focus on cross country racing. 

This was an erroneous post.  Please delete.  Thanks.

1 hour ago, Crnr2Crnr said:

they must want to be competitive... weird? 

little less red wave this year as well... might look more like the old killer bee's days

depressing...

 

Yeah ok all of it.  Still, I'm wanting to go back to Cat but, this RS platform is just something special....so long as you don't have to work on it.  It's like riding an engine with skis.my current is really something.  Hope to get some real seat time on it this year.

[Deephaven]

26 minutes ago, Zambroski said:

Yeah ok all of it.  Still, I'm wanting to go back to Cat but, this RS platform is just something special....so long as you don't have to work on it.  

It is...if you are a gay midget.

[Zambroski]

 When are Polaris fan bois gonna stop being hating little brother and just enjoy their mass produced consumer level sled models with all those fancy options and 4 year warranties that will FOR SURE be needed?

 

[J. Jackson]

33 minutes ago, Deephaven said:

It is...if you are a gay midget.

The average height of a at least 20 yr old male in North America is 5' 9''. It doesn't specify sexual preference but I guess that they do look at demographics.

[Zambroski]

1 hour ago, J. Jackson said:

The average height of a at least 20 yr old male in North America is 5' 9''. It doesn't specify sexual preference but I guess that they do look at demographics.

Right.  Poo engineers told me at Hay-girl days years ago that it's industry standard to design and engineer the machines for optimum ergos for the rider that is about 5-8 to 5-10 Anything way under or way over that and it takes more ability to make it perform in the perimeters in which they are designed.

[Not greg b]

47 minutes ago, Zambroski said:

Right.  Poo engineers told me at Hay-girl days years ago that it's industry standard to design and engineer the machines for optimum ergos for the rider that is about 5-8 to 5-10 Anything way under or way over that and it takes more ability to make it perform in the perimeters in which they are designed.

That’s why the 10+20 rizas came out 

[Zambroski]

59 minutes ago, Not greg b said:

That’s why the 10+20 rizas came out 

For real KaRVinG!!!!!!!

[Crnr2Crnr]

16 hours ago, Zambroski said:

For real KaRVinG!!!!!!!

they make it ride more like a dirt bike 

[Zambroski]

Just now, Crnr2Crnr said:

they make it ride more like a dirt bike 

"Just stay off and away from the track when these snow bikes are racing.  They have almost no control."

Dreamy.