Snocross 2025

[racinfarmer]

10 minutes ago, AK440 said:

Textron doesn’t have a race program. Everyone who knew anything left years ago. Cat can’t even figure out the fuel injection for their domestic built 600. They are completely inept.

I'm confused by this statement.

[ZR6000RR]

10 minutes ago, racinfarmer said:

I'm confused by this statement.

Yet you responded? Inept, meet retarded. We now have created CMRtwo many letters. Hope that stupid fuck responds. His answers are special. He will. His only friends live here 

[racinfarmer]

I'm confused by that as well.  

[AK440]

1 hour ago, racinfarmer said:

I'm confused by that as well.  

 

1 hour ago, racinfarmer said:

I'm confused by this statement.

It’s all in the Shop Talk podcast. You DON’T race do you. 

[racinfarmer]

13 minutes ago, AK440 said:

 

It’s all in the Shop Talk podcast. You DON’T race do you. 

Which one?

Edited October 9, 2024 by racinfarmer

[Crnr2Crnr]

13 hours ago, Palu49 said:

You think the slipper will “straighten” out the issues? 😂

what 'problem'?  they're absolutely perfect straight out of the crate!   

 

[Premium]

So what's not straight? Eccentric bearing only on one side of jackshaft causing alignment issues?

[fortune46x]

2 hours ago, Premium said:

So what's not straight? Eccentric bearing only on one side of jackshaft causing alignment issues?

So this will be a long one...

When the eccentric lifts the jackshaft up to tension the final drive belt it allows the jack shaft to rotate in the spherical bearing and pull the clutch out of parallelism. The eccentric difference between the two center positions is .118 apart (2 degrees over the span of the jackshaft) Using the bearings center as a datum , if you draw a line that is 10" long (just using generic numbers I've not measured the jackshaft length or the clutch diameter) it puts the end point of the line at .008" out from its flat position on center. now if you have a 15" diameter clutch that .008" dimension gets amplified at 7.5" on center to show that the clutch moves out on the top .287" and in on the bottom in .287"  causing the clutch to be side loaded which explains all the belt dust those who have put time in on the sleds have seen.

Now... throw high horsepower into the mix... as the engine clamps down on the belt and it trys to pull itself straight - the case aluminum case between the two drive pulleys will flex over a steel jackshaft - bending the chain case. which is what Riley and Dave saw when testing the 858 out west. Apparently the turbo 600s saw this same issue.

This is also why Herf didn't run a catalyst at the soo i500 - they couldn't get the speed out of it it would hit a wall no matter what clutching they had thrown at it - you cant shift a sled out when it cannot overcome a misalignment of this magnitude.

 

 

[krom]

24 minutes ago, fortune46x said:

So this will be a long one...

When the eccentric lifts the jackshaft up to tension the final drive belt it allows the jack shaft to rotate in the spherical bearing and pull the clutch out of parallelism. The eccentric difference between the two center positions is .118 apart (2 degrees over the span of the jackshaft) Using the bearings center as a datum , if you draw a line that is 10" long (just using generic numbers I've not measured the jackshaft length or the clutch diameter) it puts the end point of the line at .008" out from its flat position on center. now if you have a 15" diameter clutch that .008" dimension gets amplified at 7.5" on center to show that the clutch moves out on the top .287" and in on the bottom in .287"  causing the clutch to be side loaded which explains all the belt dust those who have put time in on the sleds have seen.

Now... throw high horsepower into the mix... as the engine clamps down on the belt and it trys to pull itself straight - the case aluminum case between the two drive pulleys will flex over a steel jackshaft - bending the chain case. which is what Riley and Dave saw when testing the 858 out west. Apparently the turbo 600s saw this same issue.

This is also why Herf didn't run a catalyst at the soo i500 - they couldn't get the speed out of it it would hit a wall no matter what clutching they had thrown at it - you cant shift a sled out when it cannot overcome a misalignment of this magnitude.

 

 

That's what happens when you make a change late in development

@Palu49 you should grab the stm parallelism tool from the pegboard and measure your sled to see how close it is

[Crnr2Crnr]

39 minutes ago, fortune46x said:

So this will be a long one...

When the eccentric lifts the jackshaft up to tension the final drive belt it allows the jack shaft to rotate in the spherical bearing and pull the clutch out of parallelism. The eccentric difference between the two center positions is .118 apart (2 degrees over the span of the jackshaft) Using the bearings center as a datum , if you draw a line that is 10" long (just using generic numbers I've not measured the jackshaft length or the clutch diameter) it puts the end point of the line at .008" out from its flat position on center. now if you have a 15" diameter clutch that .008" dimension gets amplified at 7.5" on center to show that the clutch moves out on the top .287" and in on the bottom in .287"  causing the clutch to be side loaded which explains all the belt dust those who have put time in on the sleds have seen.

Now... throw high horsepower into the mix... as the engine clamps down on the belt and it trys to pull itself straight - the case aluminum case between the two drive pulleys will flex over a steel jackshaft - bending the chain case. which is what Riley and Dave saw when testing the 858 out west. Apparently the turbo 600s saw this same issue.

This is also why Herf didn't run a catalyst at the soo i500 - they couldn't get the speed out of it it would hit a wall no matter what clutching they had thrown at it - you cant shift a sled out when it cannot overcome a misalignment of this magnitude.

 

 

and someone here will likely say... 

[mnstang]

51 minutes ago, fortune46x said:

So this will be a long one...

When the eccentric lifts the jackshaft up to tension the final drive belt it allows the jack shaft to rotate in the spherical bearing and pull the clutch out of parallelism. The eccentric difference between the two center positions is .118 apart (2 degrees over the span of the jackshaft) Using the bearings center as a datum , if you draw a line that is 10" long (just using generic numbers I've not measured the jackshaft length or the clutch diameter) it puts the end point of the line at .008" out from its flat position on center. now if you have a 15" diameter clutch that .008" dimension gets amplified at 7.5" on center to show that the clutch moves out on the top .287" and in on the bottom in .287"  causing the clutch to be side loaded which explains all the belt dust those who have put time in on the sleds have seen.

Now... throw high horsepower into the mix... as the engine clamps down on the belt and it trys to pull itself straight - the case aluminum case between the two drive pulleys will flex over a steel jackshaft - bending the chain case. which is what Riley and Dave saw when testing the 858 out west. Apparently the turbo 600s saw this same issue.

This is also why Herf didn't run a catalyst at the soo i500 - they couldn't get the speed out of it it would hit a wall no matter what clutching they had thrown at it - you cant shift a sled out when it cannot overcome a misalignment of this magnitude.

 

 

I feel like you're starting the conversation by assuming the jackshaft is starting from a parallel position when in the de-tensioned position and moves to unparallel when tensioned?  I would question that it's designed this way for obvious reasons.  Do you have info that says otherwise?

[Premium]

1 hour ago, fortune46x said:

So this will be a long one...

When the eccentric lifts the jackshaft up to tension the final drive belt it allows the jack shaft to rotate in the spherical bearing and pull the clutch out of parallelism. The eccentric difference between the two center positions is .118 apart (2 degrees over the span of the jackshaft) Using the bearings center as a datum , if you draw a line that is 10" long (just using generic numbers I've not measured the jackshaft length or the clutch diameter) it puts the end point of the line at .008" out from its flat position on center. now if you have a 15" diameter clutch that .008" dimension gets amplified at 7.5" on center to show that the clutch moves out on the top .287" and in on the bottom in .287"  causing the clutch to be side loaded which explains all the belt dust those who have put time in on the sleds have seen.

Now... throw high horsepower into the mix... as the engine clamps down on the belt and it trys to pull itself straight - the case aluminum case between the two drive pulleys will flex over a steel jackshaft - bending the chain case. which is what Riley and Dave saw when testing the 858 out west. Apparently the turbo 600s saw this same issue.

This is also why Herf didn't run a catalyst at the soo i500 - they couldn't get the speed out of it it would hit a wall no matter what clutching they had thrown at it - you cant shift a sled out when it cannot overcome a misalignment of this magnitude.

 

 

Good info. I def had my suspicions about parallelism/alignment.

Seems like a wild thing to overlook.

[AK440]

11 hours ago, racinfarmer said:

Which one?

Logan Christian episode. Cat/Textron is a complete shit show. This episode further reinforced why they quit entering the Iron Dog. Their shit doesn’t run reliably in cold temps. That matches what I heard years ago about two teams that struggled as Cat didn’t have proper maps to make the sleds run. Cory Davis also talked about it on the Carbide Podcast.

[AK440]

2 minutes ago, Premium said:

Good info. I def had my suspicions about parallelism/alignment.

Seems like a wild thing to overlook.

It’s the new Cat/Textron team! Bringing basic, untested shit to the customer for them to figure out. Fortunately they’ve still got a few dipfucks like @mnstang that continue to support them. Though him and 5 other guys can’t keep the sled division in business.

[Premium]

1 hour ago, fortune46x said:

So this will be a long one...

When the eccentric lifts the jackshaft up to tension the final drive belt it allows the jack shaft to rotate in the spherical bearing and pull the clutch out of parallelism. The eccentric difference between the two center positions is .118 apart (2 degrees over the span of the jackshaft) Using the bearings center as a datum , if you draw a line that is 10" long (just using generic numbers I've not measured the jackshaft length or the clutch diameter) it puts the end point of the line at .008" out from its flat position on center. now if you have a 15" diameter clutch that .008" dimension gets amplified at 7.5" on center to show that the clutch moves out on the top .287" and in on the bottom in .287"  causing the clutch to be side loaded which explains all the belt dust those who have put time in on the sleds have seen.

Now... throw high horsepower into the mix... as the engine clamps down on the belt and it trys to pull itself straight - the case aluminum case between the two drive pulleys will flex over a steel jackshaft - bending the chain case. which is what Riley and Dave saw when testing the 858 out west. Apparently the turbo 600s saw this same issue.

This is also why Herf didn't run a catalyst at the soo i500 - they couldn't get the speed out of it it would hit a wall no matter what clutching they had thrown at it - you cant shift a sled out when it cannot overcome a misalignment of this magnitude.

 

 

In theory shouldn't the TCL be keeping everything aligned and the eccentric offset gets translated into the motor mounts?

[fortune46x]

21 minutes ago, Premium said:

In theory shouldn't the TCL be keeping everything aligned and the eccentric offset gets translated into the motor mounts?

You would think that , but when you start looking at the clutches and the issues with the walls everyone talks about theres something more to it , then with reports of bent chaincases ... yup.

I am planning on stripping mine down in the coming weeks and can look into it much deeper than it has been.

[Premium]

Dug around and found this fwiw. You'd think the Catalyst setup would be no problem at 2 degrees unless the motor mounts are allowing too much movement? Exceeding that 5 degrees and bending the beltcase?

https://www.arcticinsider.com/more-tech-pix-and-descriptions-of-the-2012-arctic-cats/

The big news here is a new development called the Torque Control Link (TCL) that serves as a fixed C-to-C distance, coupled with a bearing design on the chaincase side that allows 5 degrees of movement. With the system, the engine and jackshaft (and thus both clutches) are connected to maintain a fixed distance and always parallel regardless of torque, improving performance and increasing belt life.

[Crnr2Crnr]

anyone heard of similar issues with the Polaris belt drive or jackshaft setup?  

 

[fortune46x]

.

 

Edited October 9, 2024 by fortune46x

[Not greg b]

5 minutes ago, Crnr2Crnr said:

anyone heard of similar issues with the Polaris belt drive or jackshaft setup?  

 

All cats drive train issues the last 14 years have had one root cause. They use parts that move around. You know what they did differently 15 years ago? Had drive trains that don’t move. Just like other 2 have done since the beginning of time 

[Not greg b]

sheaves about 500 is miles off my sled 100% how it came from the factory. Mine had terrible belt dust. Definitely an alignment issue 

[Crnr2Crnr]

4 minutes ago, Not greg b said:

sheaves about 500 is miles off my sled 100% how it came from the factory. Mine had terrible belt dust. Definitely an alignment issue 

don't worry, your Dad will pay for it  

[ZR6000RR]

8 minutes ago, Not greg b said:

sheaves about 500 is miles off my sled 100% how it came from the factory. Mine had terrible belt dust. Definitely an alignment issue 

When you run Wide open all the time on a belt I am betting was not broken in because you figure they don't know what they are talking about. Another dumb person trying to come across as smart.

[Premium]

17 minutes ago, Not greg b said:

All cats drive train issues the last 14 years have had one root cause. They use parts that move around. You know what they did differently 15 years ago? Had drive trains that don’t move. Just like other 2 have done since the beginning of time 

I dunno, I'm not willing to totally discredit the system...my Procross sleds have been amazing on belts and no broken chains in 20k miles . Obviously I don't have a a 2012 or 2013 .

Also floating secondaries have been around a long time.

[Crnr2Crnr]

3 minutes ago, ZR6000RR said:

When you run Wide open all the time on a belt I am betting was not broken in because you figure they don't know what they are talking about. Another dumb person trying to come across as smart.

be quiet, adults are talking here