2024 Arctic Cat Catalyst 'Chassis' details?

[mnstang]

58 minutes ago, favoritos said:

That's great info.

I did the same thing with weights. Dang glad I found the altitude kit pricing.  The Cat profile isn't too bad and they have held up longer than adjustables in my experience.

I'm not really a top speed guy.  I do tend to ride fairly fast and I've been trying to find something that holds up for high speed long hauls.

Been throwing together a few different secondary setups to try.

I found promo pricing on a M secondary with the 48S helix.  Already had a couple of 155/220 springs so I built one of those combos.  I'm impressed the primary with big weights pulled that secondary.  If we get snow I'm thinking about trying the 64g.  Seems like I'd need a little heavier initial rate on the primary spring to rev up those weights.  I bet the finish rate is dang close.

If you're dealing with heavy weights and trying to keep the backshift, I've found you actually want more rate in the primary spring.  By rate I mean the difference between initial and finish numbers.. that is more important to me for backshift than either number by itself.  Plot the two numbers on a graph and look at the angle of the line will dictate alot.  I think a lot of diy tuners don't understand that.  The initial really just relates to engagement and finish doesn't really affect shift rpm much at all.  Heavy weights can be good for drag racing and speed running but I don't like them for a trail sled corner to corner.

[favoritos]

9 minutes ago, mnstang said:

If you're dealing with heavy weights and trying to keep the backshift, I've found you actually want more rate in the primary spring.  By rate I mean the difference between initial and finish numbers.. that is more important to me for backshift than either number by itself.  Plot the two numbers on a graph and look at the angle of the line will dictate alot.  I think a lot of diy tuners don't understand that.  The initial really just relates to engagement and finish doesn't really affect shift rpm much at all.  Heavy weights can be good for drag racing and speed running but I don't like them for a trail sled corner to corner.

I'm in agreement with the concept.

Clutching is a complicated subject.  I'm terrible at just plopping words on a screen to describe.

The idea you mention is relevant to the current stock setup. 

The 800 sleds are shipped with 85/225 rate springs against the same secondary we have in the Catalyst.  The primary rate is 65/255 on these little 600 motors.  The stock setup works well for low and midrange speeds.  It's pretty strong out of the box unless you like clicking over 80 mph.  I'm guessing it will scare a stock 800 for quite a stretch. The stock 800 will keep pulling but it isn't much of a beast past the 600 Catalyst speeds. 

We've kinda ruled out the secondary as the variable with both sleds using the exact same helix and spring.  Who knows, it may be the limiting factor on both.

The stock 600 Catalyst setup works well for typical trail riding.  It's pretty close but that doesn't mean we can't find more.  The 80 wall is frustrating because it just gives up.  We're not running out of gearing or rpm, it just quits pulling. (Unless you hit miracle horsepower ice.)

 

[Not greg b]

3 minutes ago, favoritos said:

I'm in agreement with the concept.

Clutching is a complicated subject.  I'm terrible at just plopping words on a screen to describe.

The idea you mention is relevant to the current stock setup. 

The 800 sleds are shipped with 85/225 rate springs against the same secondary we have in the Catalyst.  The primary rate is 65/255 on these little 600 motors.  The stock setup works well for low and midrange speeds.  It's pretty strong out of the box unless you like clicking over 80 mph.  I'm guessing it will scare a stock 800 for quite a stretch. The stock 800 will keep pulling but it isn't much of a beast past the 600 Catalyst speeds. 

We've kinda ruled out the secondary as the variable with both sleds using the exact same helix and spring.  Who knows, it may be the limiting factor on both.

The stock 600 Catalyst setup works well for typical trail riding.  It's pretty close but that doesn't mean we can't find more.  The 80 wall is frustrating because it just gives up.  We're not running out of gearing or rpm, it just quits pulling. (Unless you hit miracle horsepower ice.)

 

My catalyst will run door handle to handle with my 7,000 mile 2020 Polaris 800xc with a brand new clutch and belt until the catalyst walls, then the 800 is gone. In deep snow you can tell the torque difference between the 600 and 800. The 600 really labors when you put a load on it. 

[krom]

one of these with a 57-50 and green spring:

Edited February 6 by krom

[Not greg b]

3 minutes ago, krom said:

one of these with a 57-50 and green spring:

That would be fun. 

[mnstang]

1 hour ago, favoritos said:

I'm in agreement with the concept.

Clutching is a complicated subject.  I'm terrible at just plopping words on a screen to describe.

The idea you mention is relevant to the current stock setup. 

The 800 sleds are shipped with 85/225 rate springs against the same secondary we have in the Catalyst.  The primary rate is 65/255 on these little 600 motors.  The stock setup works well for low and midrange speeds.  It's pretty strong out of the box unless you like clicking over 80 mph.  I'm guessing it will scare a stock 800 for quite a stretch. The stock 800 will keep pulling but it isn't much of a beast past the 600 Catalyst speeds. 

We've kinda ruled out the secondary as the variable with both sleds using the exact same helix and spring.  Who knows, it may be the limiting factor on both.

The stock 600 Catalyst setup works well for typical trail riding.  It's pretty close but that doesn't mean we can't find more.  The 80 wall is frustrating because it just gives up.  We're not running out of gearing or rpm, it just quits pulling. (Unless you hit miracle horsepower ice.)

 

I haven't rode a catalyst or anything.  But it sounds like it's not too bad and that the 800 pulls it on top.  I would think any 800 should pull it on top.  If the belt isn't slipping and rpms don't climb I'd just say it's out of power.  If the clutches stop shifting for some reason but it has power left the rpms would climb.  Maybe the chassis setup isn't great for speed on snow.  Or clutch alignment stuff.  Snow conditions are so huge when trying to mph.  

1 hour ago, krom said:

one of these with a 57-50 and green spring:

If someone were to sell a jackshaft that accepts the old keyed clutch they'd probably sell pretty well.

Not sure why cat went away from that or doesn't go back to it.  You can float those too.

[Jerr2Star]

3 hours ago, ZR6000RR said:

I know you try really, REALLY hard to insult me. Dont know you from Adam, so don't care. Have less than 2 miles on my sled. Zero snow. Might not ride it till next winter. Old enough to not have a coronary over it. Love the seat and seating position, and the panels and hood and the attach system. Took me maybe 2 seconds to put my 22L. tunnel pack on. Mother nature is a bitch, but you are one shallow little fuck. I must threaten your boy hood,  or what ever you go by. Hope you blow your sled up.

I Must have been pretty damn insulting to you, you passed up all the previous "references" but I was the one that got you triggered enough to respond?

I Dont care if you know me, I have heard enough, read enough of you to form an opinion and the way you derail every forum you enter is comical but doesn't contribute to the conversation.

Thanks for wishing a forum members sled will blow up, real classy of you, but if it does i'll just rebuild myself like I do with everything I own so no need to have a dealer on speed dial to come fix my trash heap cat.  

[Not greg b]

8 minutes ago, mnstang said:

I haven't rode a catalyst or anything.  But it sounds like it's not too bad and that the 800 pulls it on top.  I would think any 800 should pull it on top.  If the belt isn't slipping and rpms don't climb I'd just say it's out of power.  If the clutches stop shifting for some reason but it has power left the rpms would climb.  Maybe the chassis setup isn't great for speed on snow.  Or clutch alignment stuff.  Snow conditions are so huge when trying to mph.  

If someone were to sell a jackshaft that accepts the old keyed clutch they'd probably sell pretty well.

Not sure why cat went away from that or doesn't go back to it.  You can float those too.

The clutching is absolute shit on the catalyst. It’s not out of power, it can pull the stupid secondary set up. 

[mnstang]

8 minutes ago, Not greg b said:

The clutching is absolute shit on the catalyst. It’s not out of power, it can pull the stupid secondary set up. 

So why does it stop shifting and stop accelerating? 

[taperk600]

On 2/4/2024 at 10:27 PM, Palu49 said:

I’m going riding with that old guy from HCS that used to do cool builds on his 96 different procross sleds, we’re gonna try some different clutching recipes and test the catalyst against the 650 VR1z

 

17 hours ago, Palu49 said:

 

 

I also let @taperk600 try out my 19 limited today, his first time on a procross sled as far as I know.

 

US old guys rule !!! But I'm not sure if maybe you're slipping because seems you are not sure if it's 96 different procross sleds ....... or my first time riding one................. 

Edited February 6 by taperk600

[taperk600]

On 2/4/2024 at 10:50 PM, Not greg b said:

The fb groups said he is lying and is a hater because he is a Polaris fan boy now lol. After riding my Polaris back to back with the catalyst I agree with him 100%. Cat needs a few tweaks and it will be a weapon. 

The 650 rides smoother. The Catalyst feels like it can ride thru what ever you want it to. Definitely less "refined" feel to the Catalyst. 650 is faster over all.... Guess I'm a hater and a liar....need to go see these fb groups you speak of and confess my sins............  

[Crnr2Crnr]

let's hear a realistic clutching and top end comparison of the Procross 600 vs the Catalyst 600 as a lot of the guys posting came from 800's 

had we actually gotten snow this winter... was hoping to compare our 21 RXC with a fresh mill vs @fortune46x's 24 RXC side by side in the same conditions.

91 mph is the best I saw from the '21 last year but rarely are we on big end trails here.  there were several people a few years back that were only getting in the 80-85mph range and bitching about it on HCS

 

[jonlafon1]

13 hours ago, Palu49 said:

116-65 Cat PN (65g stock 800 adapt)

48S helix 

155/220 Secondary spring

7900-7950 RPMS

97mph speedo 94GPS no wall on loose sugar snow. I turned around and unloaded the thing to get a gps readout for you fucks.

Things a pooch down low until it gets up on the pipe, pipe temps went up about 150° with the 65s.

I ordered 62 and 64 gram high altitude trail weights from cat because 2 sets of those are still cheaper than one set of adjustables. That helix is probably tits but I’m gonna try the stock one with the 155/220 spring and a 48/44 with the same spring both with the 65g weights to see how it goes. If it all goes well with stock cat parts you should be able to push these things to 100 gps on snow for about $250

 

I also let @taperk600 try out my 19 limited today, his first time on a procross sled as far as I know.

Nice work.. If you only have a few miles on the sled it will get stronger and the 65's might not be slightly doggy down low.. That's what happened to me when I kept loading the heavy hitters.. They got just SLIGHTLY lazy down low but still gets on the pipe good.. Guessing with 500 - 1000  miles these will pull way more weight then stock with 20 miles. I feel like the 'Wall" is just the sled shifting out instantly.. Load em up with weight and get the motor on the pipe.. Hell a guy could probably tune this thing with weights in the primary clutch just going off the sound. 

[jonlafon1]

13 hours ago, Palu49 said:

64 gram high altitude trail weights

THESE  might be your ticket

[jonlafon1]

11 hours ago, mnstang said:

If you're dealing with heavy weights and trying to keep the backshift

LESS helix angle.. I agree somewhat on the primary spring but the helix angle will determine backshift more. 

[fortune46x]

51 minutes ago, Crnr2Crnr said:

let's hear a realistic clutching and top end comparison of the Procross 600 vs the Catalyst 600 as a lot of the guys posting came from 800's 

had we actually gotten snow this winter... was hoping to compare our 21 RXC with a fresh mill vs @fortune46x's 24 RXC side by side in the same conditions.

91 mph is the best I saw from the '21 last year but rarely are we on big end trails here.  there were several people a few years back that were only getting in the 80-85mph range and bitching about it on HCS

 

ironically I planned on doing the same with my 0 mile 2023 and my 6 mile 2024 here but .. ma nature is only silly slut.

[Palu49]

21 minutes ago, jonlafon1 said:

Nice work.. If you only have a few miles on the sled it will get stronger and the 65's might not be slightly doggy down low.. That's what happened to me when I kept loading the heavy hitters.. They got just SLIGHTLY lazy down low but still gets on the pipe good.. Guessing with 500 - 1000  miles these will pull way more weight then stock with 20 miles. I feel like the 'Wall" is just the sled shifting out instantly.. Load em up with weight and get the motor on the pipe.. Hell a guy could probably tune this thing with weights in the primary clutch just going off the sound. 

Nice tip/estimate for stock profiles off of your heavy hitters, I wouldn’t have guessed that much weight to try without you recommending it.

My sleds got about 230 miles on it now, pulled those weights about 150-200rpms at the end of the day.

Another thing I noticed is that Toms ATAC 137 feels WAY lighter compared to my sled and I only have made spring/shock adjustments to mine so far. I don’t know if it’s just the skis or what but on mine you know gravity exists and his feels like you’re floating over the top of the snow, his buddy that rode both noticed it too.

[Crnr2Crnr]

21 minutes ago, fortune46x said:

ironically I planned on doing the same with my 0 mile 2023 and my 6 mile 2024 here but .. ma nature is only silly slut.

and how was that supposed to help me abuse your sled?  and you'd been able to get some SP5 saddle time.  

regardless, they're 600's and I've a feeling that's been a bit lost in the quest for top speed conversation.  now, if the eigh fi eigh doesn't crack 100 mph with ease... 

 

[Jimmy Snacks]

My question….is the  Catalyst 600 strong from 0-70 with the stock clutching? 🤷🏻🤔

[jonlafon1]

13 minutes ago, Jimmy Snacks said:

My question….is the  Catalyst 600 strong from 0-70 with the stock clutching? 🤷🏻🤔

Yes, BUT WAY better with more weight. The belt wont come up into any over drive in the primary with the stock light weights. 0-85 mine is beast for sure. Cat left a a ton of HP on the table with stock clutching, as its just instantly on the pipe and over rev.. Just throw some 64 Gram cat weights in and call it good >   If your just looking to gas and go and not want to mess with clutching to much.. Im more of a perfectionist when it comes to clutching, and thinking secondary might need some tweaks. I find the Heavy hitter weights with MORE tip weight then the middle hole to really wake these things up. 

[jonlafon1]

41 minutes ago, Crnr2Crnr said:

now, if the eigh fi eigh doesn't crack 100 mph with ease... 

Thinking 110-115 GPS.. After some miles and clutch work..  

[Jimmy Snacks]

52 minutes ago, jonlafon1 said:

Yes, BUT WAY better with more weight. The belt wont come up into any over drive in the primary with the stock light weights. 0-85 mine is beast for sure. Cat left a a ton of HP on the table with stock clutching, as its just instantly on the pipe and over rev.. Just throw some 64 Gram cat weights in and call it good >   If your just looking to gas and go and not want to mess with clutching to much.. Im more of a perfectionist when it comes to clutching, and thinking secondary might need some tweaks. I find the Heavy hitter weights with MORE tip weight then the middle hole to really wake these things up. 

OK thanks!👍🏼❄️

[wrinkly balls]

10 hours ago, taperk600 said:

The 650 rides smoother. The Catalyst feels like it can ride thru what ever you want it to. Definitely less "refined" feel to the Catalyst. 650 is faster over all.... Guess I'm a hater and a liar....need to go see these fb groups you speak of and confess my sins............  

Does the 650 have more top speed or does it just get there faster?

[taperk600]

4 hours ago, Crnr2Crnr said:

let's hear a realistic clutching and top end comparison of the Procross 600 vs the Catalyst 600 as a lot of the guys posting came from 800's 

had we actually gotten snow this winter... was hoping to compare our 21 RXC with a fresh mill vs @fortune46x's 24 RXC side by side in the same conditions.

91 mph is the best I saw from the '21 last year but rarely are we on big end trails here.  there were several people a few years back that were only getting in the 80-85mph range and bitching about it on HCS

 

I can say @Palu49's 2019 600 LTD 137, when I owned it at least, was bone stock, had the TALL window, ice ripper track, and was consistently high 90s-100 sled. Honestly all stock motor and clutching. Even yesterday when it was brought along for a day in the snow and not being regulated to the back corner like a red-headed step child, it was seeing low 90s...with the Catalyst secondary on it...................maybe it was all the glitter on it......

However, I don't think there is a Catalyst 600 on the snow that has run like that STOCK. At least none that any of us have been talking about......

My blue 137 ATAC yesterday was seeing high 90s, but isn't stock.  D&D reflash, Y, clutching. Trying a different flash yesterday with the stock can VS their quiet can...so slightly different than last time I rode. Still in the 130s hp. 

We didn't line up any sleds except for my 650 VR1 (D&D Y & clutching) and my Catalyst, so can't tell you how badly my Catalyst would have beat the 19 in a draggy..... but if just comparing top end to top end, they were both seeing 90+. 

There is many ways to skin a CAT (all pun intended).... and looking at just top end isn't the whole story. As we all know.....

[taperk600]

5 minutes ago, wrinkly balls said:

Does the 650 have more top speed or does it just get there faster?

More top speed.