Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted August 2, 2021 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted August 2, 2021 (edited) I wouldn't have a problem with more rules on mandatory compensation in wages/salary over stock. I think that is where one of the big issues some see today with the uber wealthy. While I don't support pay caps on CEO's I think some consideration should be given to pay minimum's. Part of the reason that's so prevalent today is low interest rates and growing stock values. Makes sense to get paid in stock and borrow against low interest rates to support an extravagant lifestyle. Edited August 2, 2021 by Highmark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Member 800renegaderider Posted August 2, 2021 Gold Member Share Posted August 2, 2021 6 minutes ago, SkisNH said: I like the Idea of either the fair tax http://www.fairtax.org or a flat tax...No deduction, no bullshit everyone pays 12.5% of their pay. The rich people will still largely fund the system but at least the recipient class will have some skin in the game. Exactly it should be a flat tax system. The rich find loop holes to not pay and the poor don’t pay a dime everyone should be paying a equal percentage rate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkisNH Posted August 2, 2021 Share Posted August 2, 2021 1 hour ago, 800renegaderider said: The richest 1% pay an effective federal income tax rate of 24.7%. That is a little more than the 19.3% rate paid by someone making an average of $75,000. And 1 out of 5 millionaires pays a lower rate than someone making $50,000 to $100,000. https://americansfortaxfairness.org/tax-fairness-briefing-booklet/fact-sheet-taxing-wealthy-americans/ I could go through point by point on where this is just marxist propaganda but neither of us would change our minds...So I will address just (1) point for you to consider. In the link it calls for the capital gains rate to be the same as the income tax rate...The problem is. Money that goes into the stock market has already been taxed at the ordinary income rate. Only the GAINS are taxed at capital gains. The Market and the power of compounding interest has created nest eggs for every generation and raising the capital gains will only hurt investment and retirement. Revenue to the Treasury has gone UP every time the capital gains rate has been lowered due to increased investment. Where I due agree is that if you hold a series 6 or 7 license for investing those Personal gains should be taxed as income / but not for the typical individual Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkisNH Posted August 2, 2021 Share Posted August 2, 2021 2 minutes ago, 800renegaderider said: Exactly it should be a flat tax system. The rich find loop holes to not pay and the poor don’t pay a dime everyone should be paying a equal percentage rate. The rich pay...believe me, they pay. If someone is in the top 1% making 600k they pay about 150k in federal income tax (using your numbers)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zambroski Posted August 2, 2021 Share Posted August 2, 2021 13 minutes ago, Highmark said: I wouldn't have a problem with more rules on mandatory compensation in wages/salary over stock. I think that is where one of the big issues some see today with the uber wealthy. While I don't support pay caps on CEO's I think some consideration should be given to pay minimum's. Part of the reason that's so prevalent today is low interest rates and growing stock values. Makes sense to get paid in stock and borrow against low interest rates to support an extravagant lifestyle. There are many, many orgs that offer some amazing stock options and investment plans. The problem is, so few take advantage. Most of the companies offer quarterly financial advice/training so you know what the employer offers. Still, just pathetic participation. I don’t understand why…..and never will. I guess if your father/mother never “bought into” financial advantages, it’s better to just complain on how so many more have more money than you do. Gub’ment needs to step up! ……AND WHY CANT I HAVE A NEW HOUSE, NEW CARS AND A FAMILY WORKING ON MINIMUM WAGE?!?!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Member 800renegaderider Posted August 2, 2021 Gold Member Share Posted August 2, 2021 (edited) 9 minutes ago, SkisNH said: The rich pay...believe me, they pay. If someone is in the top 1% making 600k they pay about 150k in federal income tax (using your numbers)... How much did bezos pay in 2007,2011,2018 musk pay in 2018 How much is Peter thiel paying on his 5 billion Roth fortune the rich always find loop holes to not pay Hell even my boss pays less rate than me and he is by no mean loaded he just plays the system. Edited August 2, 2021 by 800renegaderider Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted August 2, 2021 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted August 2, 2021 Just now, 800renegaderider said: How much did bezos pay in 2007,2011,2018 musk pay in pay in 2018 How much is Peter thiel paying on his 5 billion Roth fortune the rich always find loop holes to not pay Some rich not all. That's proven by IRS tax data. I'd rather see some adjustments in compensation rules before "wealth taxes." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry ginger Posted August 2, 2021 Share Posted August 2, 2021 1 minute ago, 800renegaderider said: How much did bezos pay in 2007,2011,2018 musk pay in 2018 How much is Peter thiel paying on his 5 billion Roth fortune the rich always find loop holes to not pay the superrich get subsidized in many ways by being able to pay people to game the system. the high income earners but not superrich are those that pay the highest percentages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edmo Posted August 2, 2021 Share Posted August 2, 2021 7 minutes ago, Zambroski said: There are many, many orgs that offer some amazing stock options and investment plans. The problem is, so few take advantage. Most of the companies offer quarterly financial advice/training so you know what the employer offers. Still, just pathetic participation. I don’t understand why…..and never will. I guess if your father/mother never “bought into” financial advantages, it’s better to just complain on how so many more have more money than you do. Gub’ment needs to step up! ……AND WHY CANT I HAVE A NEW HOUSE, NEW CARS AND A FAMILY WORKING ON MINIMUM WAGE?!?!! I learned early to go full on into stock investment programs at work. Most you can buy at 80-90% of actual value. You made money the day you bought them. And many went up over time. I paid a large chuck of my kids college through these investments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zambroski Posted August 2, 2021 Share Posted August 2, 2021 4 minutes ago, Angry ginger said: the superrich get subsidized in many ways by being able to pay people to game the system. the high income earners but not superrich are those that pay the highest percentages. I don’t know. Everyone can do things because the “game” rules still apply to everyone even if they can’t get the biggest “wins”. It’s just percentages. My accountants job was to keep me paying no more than 15%. And that was done almost every year. The price was audits which I passed all but one. And I’m far from anything most would call “rich” (I think). Even the lowest level earners can do something but, as long as they feel getting a big tax refund is “winning” well, I don’t know what to tell them. I don’t see that chaging either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teamgreen02 Posted August 2, 2021 Share Posted August 2, 2021 2 minutes ago, Zambroski said: There are many, many orgs that offer some amazing stock options and investment plans. The problem is, so few take advantage. Exactly, I have noticed this too. I'm sure you have probably seen the inside numbers for many organizations. We have a generous tuition reimbursement program, even better than the trendy companies like Target, Best Buy, etc. I milked that program over 7 years for $56k, most of which is tax free. The list of people utilizing that program was extremely small, given the size of the company. As far as I know, no one gets turned down, just has to be an applicable program, at an accredited institution, and turn in the passing grades and the paid tuition bill. My wife can buy stock at a 15% discount but we haven't done anything with that. I've got a thing about holding large amounts of company stock (thanks Enron). For me, they just pay the transaction fee and take it out of the check so no big deal there. Max 401k --> max HSA --> max discounted stock purchases Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Member 800renegaderider Posted August 2, 2021 Gold Member Share Posted August 2, 2021 5 minutes ago, Highmark said: Some rich not all. That's proven by IRS tax data. I'd rather see some adjustments in compensation rules before "wealth taxes." Like the article said 1 in 5 rich pay less than someone who makes 50-100k. I don’t think a “wealth tax” is a good idea I just think it need to be fair across the board. 7 minutes ago, Angry ginger said: the superrich get subsidized in many ways by being able to pay people to game the system. the high income earners but not superrich are those that pay the highest percentages. Everyone gets screwed beside the ultra rich and poor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zambroski Posted August 2, 2021 Share Posted August 2, 2021 3 minutes ago, Edmo said: I learned early to go full on into stock investment programs at work. Most you can buy at 80-90% of actual value. You made money the day you bought them. And many went up over time. I paid a large chuck of my kids college through these investments. The biggest no brained there is. I don’t see how some bungle that math during their orientation. If your company offers it…YOU TAKE IT. ”We’ll match up to 10% of your pay, if you put it in the option plan. It’s like an immediate 10% pay increase that builds to even more over time.” ”Nawww….I’m good”. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anler Posted August 2, 2021 Share Posted August 2, 2021 21 minutes ago, SkisNH said: The rich pay...believe me, they pay. If someone is in the top 1% making 600k they pay about 150k in federal income tax (using your numbers)... If youre an idiot. There are lots of ways to avoid income taxes. If you pay yourself or get paid $600k in payroll then you are an idiot and yeah you are going to pay a shitload in taxes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zambroski Posted August 2, 2021 Share Posted August 2, 2021 9 minutes ago, teamgreen02 said: Exactly, I have noticed this too. I'm sure you have probably seen the inside numbers for many organizations. We have a generous tuition reimbursement program, even better than the trendy companies like Target, Best Buy, etc. I milked that program over 7 years for $56k, most of which is tax free. The list of people utilizing that program was extremely small, given the size of the company. As far as I know, no one gets turned down, just has to be an applicable program, at an accredited institution, and turn in the passing grades and the paid tuition bill. My wife can buy stock at a 15% discount but we haven't done anything with that. I've got a thing about holding large amounts of company stock (thanks Enron). For me, they just pay the transaction fee and take it out of the check so no big deal there. Max 401k --> max HSA --> max discounted stock purchases Most I’ve seen have less than 30% participation. Of that, less than 10% take advantage of half of the match and around 3% take full advantage. My wife was given unreal stock options over the years….that some of her counterparts scoffed at. I just never understood it. It’s not a “scam” that the company that has decided you are worthy of pay want to reward you and share the success. “They are just trying to keep more of their money!!!!” WT…F? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted August 2, 2021 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted August 2, 2021 10 minutes ago, 800renegaderider said: Like the article said 1 in 5 rich pay less than someone who makes 50-100k. I don’t think a “wealth tax” is a good idea I just think it need to be fair across the board. Everyone gets screwed beside the ultra rich and poor. Not sure what the article is counting as "rich." Top 1% or top .1% What Ginger stated above is true. Many are paying A LOT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted August 2, 2021 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted August 2, 2021 13 minutes ago, Anler said: If youre an idiot. There are lots of ways to avoid income taxes. If you pay yourself or get paid $600k in payroll then you are an idiot and yeah you are going to pay a shitload in taxes Depends. On S-Corps you can pay yourself zero and take distributions but the income taxes will be the same. You just avoid some FICA which is not income taxes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zambroski Posted August 2, 2021 Share Posted August 2, 2021 This is off target and Ima sound like an old geezer a bit but, these kids today are making HUGE mistakes with their financial futures. Houses too big and expensive and $60-70k vehicles because they “can make money with the low interest rates by investing on their own with the savings!!” Enjoy working til you can’t anymore then heading to the mailbox in the hopes the SS check is still coming. Why? Why are they doing this????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkisNH Posted August 2, 2021 Share Posted August 2, 2021 11 minutes ago, Anler said: If youre an idiot. There are lots of ways to avoid income taxes. If you pay yourself or get paid $600k in payroll then you are an idiot and yeah you are going to pay a shitload in taxes please enlighten me, because I must not be a bright as you. How do I avoid "legally" not paying income tax. Yes, I can depreciate assets, yes I can expense stuff, but at the end of the day I get fucked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zambroski Posted August 2, 2021 Share Posted August 2, 2021 1 minute ago, SkisNH said: please enlighten me, because I must not be a bright as you. How do I avoid "legally" not paying income tax. Yes, I can depreciate assets, yes I can expense stuff, but at the end of the day I get fucked. “Legally”. You cannot. You can just limit the theft….that’s about it. A good accountant is worth every penny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anler Posted August 2, 2021 Share Posted August 2, 2021 10 minutes ago, SkisNH said: please enlighten me, because I must not be a bright as you. How do I avoid "legally" not paying income tax. Yes, I can depreciate assets, yes I can expense stuff, but at the end of the day I get fucked. Well I never said you can avoid paying all taxes but income taxes are the highest taxes. Wealthy people like Trump or Bezos, etc.. dont pay themselves $1 billion dollars a year on a paycheck. Trump made his money in real estate. That is a good way to mitigate income taxes is owning real estate. Then you mortgage the shit out of it and keep that loan tax free while the real estate pays the expenses and keeps your taxable income lower. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry ginger Posted August 2, 2021 Share Posted August 2, 2021 32 minutes ago, 800renegaderider said: Like the article said 1 in 5 rich pay less than someone who makes 50-100k. I don’t think a “wealth tax” is a good idea I just think it need to be fair across the board. Everyone gets screwed beside the ultra rich and poor. TBH i think middle class america does just fine within the system right now on a Fed level. hell it's pretty easy for someone to be north of 200k a year and pay mid teen effective tax rate. A flat tax set high enough to generate the same revenue numbers as today would severely change that for them. but i would agree it's "fair" that everyone pay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anler Posted August 2, 2021 Share Posted August 2, 2021 15 minutes ago, Zambroski said: “Legally”. You cannot. You can just limit the theft….that’s about it. A good accountant is worth every penny. Tax attorney is worth every penny. Accountants love paying taxes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f7ben Posted August 2, 2021 Share Posted August 2, 2021 6 hours ago, Angry ginger said: TBH i think middle class america does just fine within the system right now on a Fed level. hell it's pretty easy for someone to be north of 200k a year and pay mid teen effective tax rate. A flat tax set high enough to generate the same revenue numbers as today would severely change that for them. but i would agree it's "fair" that everyone pay. I agree with this....I just want the billionaires to pay close to the same effective rate I did when I was making good money before I was destitute and poor and down on my luck and without a chance of ever getting back on top!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teamgreen02 Posted August 2, 2021 Share Posted August 2, 2021 5 minutes ago, f7ben said: I agree with this....I just want the billionaires to pay close to the same effective rate I did when I was making good money before I was destitute and poor and down on my luck and without a chance of ever getting back on top!!!! The data shows the top 1% as having the highest average income tax rate. All we hear about are the exceptions, which need to be addressed in the tax code. The other piece that is missing is property tax, sales tax, and state/local income tax. Top 1% Top 5% Top 10% Top 25% Top 50% Bottom 50% All Taxpayers Number of Returns 1,443,179 7,215,893 14,431,787 36,079,467 72,158,933 72,158,933 144,317,866 Adjusted Gross Income ($ millions) $2,420,025 $4,217,996 $5,511,117 $7,969,121 $10,221,814 $1,342,069 $11,563,883 Share of Total Adjusted Gross Income 20.9% 36.5% 47.7% 68.9% 88.4% 11.6% 100.0% Income Taxes Paid ($ millions) 615,716 926,367 1,096,343 1,336,041 1,491,041 45,137 1,536,178 Share of Total Income Taxes Paid 40.1% 60.3% 71.4% 87.0% 97.1% 2.9% 100.0% Income Split Point 540,009 217,913 151,935 87,044 43,614 43,614 Average Tax Rate 25.4% 22.0% 19.9% 16.8% 14.6% 3.4% 13.3% Average Income Taxes Paid $426,639 $128,379 $75,967 $37,031 $20,663 $626 $10,644 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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