Carlos Danger Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 To give you an idea of how far behind Russia is just look at there SU57. Originally back in the early 2000 it was called the T50 and it was supposed to be the be all end all. 20 years later the have maybe a dozen that are unproven at best and by there own admission the radar cross section is more on par with the Super Hornet than the F22. In contrast the US has been flying two prototypes of F22 and F23 both of which are about a hundred times more stealthy than the SU57. And that does not even touch the F35. Hell the Pentagon is talking about retiring some of the F22 fleet as they are already working on NGAD the 6th gen fighter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Danger Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 41 minutes ago, Rod said: Ukraine isn’t a nato country and has no pilots trained on f16’s so you think that a handful of untrained pilots in f16’s are going to take out hundreds to thousands of Russian aircraft? That literally makes no sense I think the F16 under Patriot anti air defense would be a daily nightmare for the Russians. And yes they are training Ukrainian pilots on the F16. Ukraine has pilots what they don't have is an effective plane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Danger Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 11 minutes ago, spin_dry said: Historically it’s how Russia has fought wars. Basic attrition. They’ll keep throwing troops and cheap, low tech weapons into the meat grinder until the other side runs out of troops. For a leader to lose a war in Russia means their demise. So yeah. Troops mean nothing to Putin Right but now the Russian troops can phone home unlike previous wars which could have bad effects back home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spin_dry Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 7 minutes ago, Carlos Danger said: Right but now the Russian troops can phone home unlike previous wars which could have bad effects back home. That’s why they’ve lost a large chunk of their brighter individuals. They saw and heard what was going on with Putin’s draft and had the financial means to get the fuck out of Russia. Only a lot of dumb asses remain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anler Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 11 hours ago, akvanden said: If I remember correctly, you and Colonel macgregor thought this was going to be over by summer 2022. Here we are nearly two years later and Russia still can't fully control the regions they annexed. And Russia pushed two more countries to join NATO, and most likely what's left of Ukraine to follow. Did you predict that too? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not greg b Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 the goals of the whole thing Russia’s goal = gain more land. Ukraine’s goal = remove Russia. one goal has been met and it isnt Ukraine’s unfortunately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted November 30, 2023 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted November 30, 2023 (edited) 16 hours ago, akvanden said: I posted three links, all of which state the expectations were for a quick fall of Kyiv, from both sides. I even said that in the second post on the thread. But if you know that I really meant Russian military in every part of Ukraine (even though I never said that, nor would it be needed after cutting off political and military leadership in Kyiv, nor was/would it be needed to annex the four regions they wanted) then you sir have taken the upper hand in the conversation and really proven me wrong. Touche. If only now we can figure out what Russia was doing with their 40 mile convoy 20 miles from Kyiv in the initial days of the war. I've already asked, want to answer the question finally? Fast or prolonged taking of Kyiv? I'm not denying they were not attacking that part of the country but Kyiv other than being the capital and having historic meaning to Russia doesn't get what IMHO was the main goal. Securing the Donbas and Crimea. If they take it great but it was also a great distraction and wear down of Ukrainian forces and weapons. You do realize in December and for months prior to the Russian invasion Zelenskyy was going on and on about taking back Crimea, joining NATO and what not? While understandable Russia seen it as a direct threat. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/8/23/ukraines-president-pledges-to-return-russia-annexed-crimea Edited November 30, 2023 by Highmark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NaturallyAspirated Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 Fact is Russia doesn’t have what they desired at the onset. They don’t have anything more than what was already sympathetic towards them and the route to Europe is essentially unchanged. Also the large swath of child producing men that has been lost will have generational impact. There is no win for Russia there. Neal 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akvanden Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 1 hour ago, Highmark said: I'm not denying they were not attacking that part of the country but Kyiv other than being the capital and having historic meaning to Russia doesn't get what IMHO was the main goal. Securing the Donbas and Crimea. If they take it great but it was also a great distraction and wear down of Ukrainian forces and weapons. In my opinion, Donbas is/was the distraction. ‘Liberating’ those citizens is nice and all, but of more concern was toppling a west leaning government and installing one favorable to Russia. Donbas becomes moot at that point. Joining NATO also becomes moot. And unfortunately for Russia, that backfired with Sweden, Finland, and eventually Ukraine joining. 1 hour ago, Highmark said: You do realize in December and for months prior to the Russian invasion Zelenskyy was going on and on about taking back Crimea, joining NATO and what not? While understandable Russia seen it as a direct threat. As you said, understandable. Russia illegally annexes crimea and then is surprised/upset when Ukraine wants to join NATO to prevent further Russian abuses against is sovereignty. Shocking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted November 30, 2023 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted November 30, 2023 (edited) 37 minutes ago, akvanden said: In my opinion, Donbas is/was the distraction. ‘Liberating’ those citizens is nice and all, but of more concern was toppling a west leaning government and installing one favorable to Russia. Donbas becomes moot at that point. Joining NATO also becomes moot. And unfortunately for Russia, that backfired with Sweden, Finland, and eventually Ukraine joining. As you said, understandable. Russia illegally annexes crimea and then is surprised/upset when Ukraine wants to join NATO to prevent further Russian abuses against is sovereignty. Shocking. If Russia wanted Kyiv they would have put much greater emphasis on it. And after annexation Ukraine went on to kill thousands of its own "citizens" to hold it. Why you ask....because those people WANTED to be part of Russia. Most spoke Russian. People never consider in a situation like this which country the population desired to be a part of. In any case Russia is not a threat to us....stay the fuck out of it. Let Europe handle their own fucking mess. We should not be the worlds arbitrator of what goes on in every corner of the world. Edited November 30, 2023 by Highmark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akvanden Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 9 minutes ago, Highmark said: If Russia wanted Kyiv they would have put much greater emphasis on it. You really think this wasn’t about toppling the govt and ensuring Ukraine doesn’t join NATO? You think liberating Donbas was a higher priority? Without government change Russia all but ensured Ukraine would join. 17 minutes ago, Highmark said: In any case Russia is not a threat to us....stay the fuck out of it. Let Europe handle their own fucking mess. We should not be the worlds arbitrator of what goes on in every corner of the world. Fair enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted November 30, 2023 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted November 30, 2023 1 hour ago, akvanden said: You really think this wasn’t about toppling the govt and ensuring Ukraine doesn’t join NATO? You think liberating Donbas was a higher priority? Without government change Russia all but ensured Ukraine would join. Fair enough. I think it was about both with keeping the Donbas and Crimea the most important goal. Without question they underestimated Ukraine and the money/weapons others would be willing to kick in. This might be another case where nukes kept the world from WWIII. Without their threat how far would have "the west" went putting troops in to fight Russia? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spin_dry Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 Other than Snowden, does anyone from the US actually want to live in the glorious country of Russia? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anler Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 4 hours ago, NaturallyAspirated said: Fact is Russia doesn’t have what they desired at the onset. They don’t have anything more than what was already sympathetic towards them and the route to Europe is essentially unchanged. Also the large swath of child producing men that has been lost will have generational impact. There is no win for Russia there. Neal Fact is you're a dummy and don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted November 30, 2023 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted November 30, 2023 (edited) Ukraine won't be allowed to join NATO if the conflict persists. Not really a bad thing in Putin's mind. He could drag this out for as long as he can. Edited November 30, 2023 by Highmark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spin_dry Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 1 hour ago, Highmark said: Ukraine won't be allowed to join NATO if the conflict persists. Not really a bad thing in Putin's mind. He could drag this out for as long as he can. He’s willing to throw another couple million more guys into the meat grinder. Russia is a very weird country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Danger Posted November 30, 2023 Share Posted November 30, 2023 41 minutes ago, spin_dry said: He’s willing to throw another couple million more guys into the meat grinder. Russia is a very weird country. Men are not the problem for Russia equipment will be the issues. I mean they are dusting off 50 year old equipment as they have burned up a good portion of the newer stuff. At some point more men will be ineffective for the Russians. Ukrainian drones have been a game changer in this battle as well as the Russians are losing equipment that is not even on the front lines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NaturallyAspirated Posted December 1, 2023 Share Posted December 1, 2023 4 hours ago, Anler said: Fact is you're a dummy and don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Incorrect. Neal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anler Posted December 1, 2023 Share Posted December 1, 2023 48 minutes ago, NaturallyAspirated said: I'm dumb Neal Correct Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NaturallyAspirated Posted December 1, 2023 Share Posted December 1, 2023 1 hour ago, Anler said: Correct I am about Russia Ukraine! Zomg!!!!! Neal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spin_dry Posted December 1, 2023 Share Posted December 1, 2023 10 hours ago, Highmark said: If Russia wanted Kyiv they would have put much greater emphasis on it. And after annexation Ukraine went on to kill thousands of its own "citizens" to hold it. Why you ask....because those people WANTED to be part of Russia. Most spoke Russian. People never consider in a situation like this which country the population desired to be a part of. In any case Russia is not a threat to us....stay the fuck out of it. Let Europe handle their own fucking mess. We should not be the worlds arbitrator of what goes on in every corner of the world. Russia didn't have the logistical support of ground forces to take Kiev. Also, their armor wasn't reliable enough to make the trip from the border to Kiev. They tried early on and failed miserably. Logistics is something thing America does better than any other country. The Russians absolutely suck at it. They've never had to fight a long distance war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted December 1, 2023 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted December 1, 2023 11 hours ago, spin_dry said: Russia didn't have the logistical support of ground forces to take Kiev. Also, their armor wasn't reliable enough to make the trip from the border to Kiev. They tried early on and failed miserably. Logistics is something thing America does better than any other country. The Russians absolutely suck at it. They've never had to fight a long distance war. Russia went at Kyiv with kid gloves. They really didn't use much air power and a land based armor attack on existing roads is foolish and fairly easy to defend against. I think they realized if they turned Kyiv to rubble the west may have done far more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akvanden Posted December 1, 2023 Share Posted December 1, 2023 26 minutes ago, Highmark said: Russia went at Kyiv with kid gloves. If that’s the case, truly stupid on Russia’s part. But I guess that’s why they’ve had so many command changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Danger Posted December 1, 2023 Share Posted December 1, 2023 On 11/30/2023 at 7:53 AM, Not greg b said: the goals of the whole thing Russia’s goal = gain more land. Ukraine’s goal = remove Russia. one goal has been met and it isnt Ukraine’s unfortunately. The jewel is not the Donbas it is Crimea. And on that front Russia is not doing so well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted December 1, 2023 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted December 1, 2023 49 minutes ago, akvanden said: If that’s the case, truly stupid on Russia’s part. But I guess that’s why they’ve had so many command changes. The city was packed with journalist, politicians and celebrities from other countries were in town all the time. Probably smart on Ukraine's part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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