Ukraine didn’t lose. Russia just got everything they wanted.

[Rod]

 

[akvanden]

Russia marched on Kyiv in the initial days of the war because they wanted leadership changes that were more favorable to Russia. That didn’t happen. They don’t and can’t seem to control the regions they annexed. And I wasn’t aware Russia wanted three more countries added to NATO because of their miscalculation.

Amazing how Jimmy misses such simple things. 

 

[Highmark]

9 hours ago, akvanden said:

Russia marched on Kyiv in the initial days of the war because they wanted leadership changes that were more favorable to Russia. That didn’t happen. They don’t and can’t seem to control the regions they annexed. And I wasn’t aware Russia wanted three more countries added to NATO because of their miscalculation.

Amazing how Jimmy misses such simple things. 

 

And while they did that Ukraine had to concentrate forces in the north and Russia secured what they wanted the whole time in the south.   Wouldn't brag too hard about that little moral victory. 

[akvanden]

3 minutes ago, Highmark said:

And while they did that Ukraine had to concentrate forces in the north and Russia secured what they wanted the whole time in the south.   Wouldn't brag too hard about that little moral victory. 

No doubt, Russia’s military is much larger. What Ukraine has been able to do thus far though is quite impressive.

[Highmark]

2 minutes ago, akvanden said:

No doubt, Russia’s military is much larger. What Ukraine has been able to do thus far though is quite impressive.

On the surface but I really don't think Russia put forth the effort/resources needed.

Its one of two ways here dude.   Russia didn't really try or our govt has been lying to us for decades about big bad Russia's capabilities.   It can't be both.

Russia may have wanted all of Ukraine but wasn't willing to go all in to get it and probably didn't expect so much military assistance from the US and Europe. 

I don't buy for a second Russia had plans to retake all of the old Soviet Union territory.   

[akvanden]

11 minutes ago, Highmark said:

On the surface but I really don't think Russia put forth the effort/resources needed.

Its one of two ways here dude.   Russia didn't really try or our govt has been lying to us for decades about big bad Russia's capabilities.   It can't be both.

Russia may have wanted all of Ukraine but wasn't willing to go all in to get it and probably didn't expect so much military assistance from the US and Europe. 

I don't buy for a second Russia had plans to retake all of the old Soviet Union territory.   

Well they sure seem to be trying, they’ve gone through multiple leadership changes due to their ineffectiveness. They also had the recruitment drive last fall because they were running low on soldiers. They still can’t control their annexed regions. They had to move the majority of their black seas fleet away from sevanstapol. They’re buying weapons from Iran and north Korea. Etc. 
 

And yes, western intelligence did overestimate their capabilities. Counting troops, tanks, planes, ships, etc is easy. Knowing how effective leadership will be at deploying and using said resources is not (hence the multiple leadership changes).

[Carlos Danger]

1 hour ago, akvanden said:

No doubt, Russia’s military is much larger. What Ukraine has been able to do thus far though is quite impressive.

Russian military is not as big as it used to be. The damage done to Russia and it's military will take decades to replace.

[Carlos Danger]

1 hour ago, Highmark said:

On the surface but I really don't think Russia put forth the effort/resources needed.

Its one of two ways here dude.   Russia didn't really try or our govt has been lying to us for decades about big bad Russia's capabilities.   It can't be both.

Russia may have wanted all of Ukraine but wasn't willing to go all in to get it and probably didn't expect so much military assistance from the US and Europe. 

I don't buy for a second Russia had plans to retake all of the old Soviet Union territory.   

The Pentagon has lied about Russian military capabilities for decades. I don't think the Russians have ever been an equal. But hey as a boogie man they have been a successful ploy to increase military spending.

[Highmark]

59 minutes ago, akvanden said:

Well they sure seem to be trying, they’ve gone through multiple leadership changes due to their ineffectiveness. They also had the recruitment drive last fall because they were running low on soldiers. They still can’t control their annexed regions. They had to move the majority of their black seas fleet away from sevanstapol. They’re buying weapons from Iran and north Korea. Etc. 
 

And yes, western intelligence did overestimate their capabilities. Counting troops, tanks, planes, ships, etc is easy. Knowing how effective leadership will be at deploying and using said resources is not (hence the multiple leadership changes).

 You sound like Spin with your military expertise.  

Low on soldiers according to whom?  Which annexed region have they lost?  Its not a surprise they would buy weapons from other countries.   There can be many reasons other than just their inability to keep up.   

Honestly there is much we don't know about and much we've been lied to about. 

I will say this...Russia had been preparing for this exact type of war since WW2 and it doesn't at least appear they are as strong as we thought and or they simply aren't over extending themselves.  

As far as shortages keep in mind our govt is telling us that we are way low on certain weapons.   What's that say about us and we aren't even fighting. 

Edited November 29, 2023 by Highmark

[Rod]

Russia is literally the worlds largest nuclear force

if they wanted to wipe Ukraine off the map they could do it in minutes 

Imagine if Russia funded a coup in Mexico and was building a big military in Mexico and was trying to set up a naval base in cancun. You think your government would stand for it? Doubt it 

[Carlos Danger]

1 hour ago, akvanden said:

Well they sure seem to be trying, they’ve gone through multiple leadership changes due to their ineffectiveness. They also had the recruitment drive last fall because they were running low on soldiers. They still can’t control their annexed regions. They had to move the majority of their black seas fleet away from sevanstapol. They’re buying weapons from Iran and north Korea. Etc. 
 

And yes, western intelligence did overestimate their capabilities. Counting troops, tanks, planes, ships, etc is easy. Knowing how effective leadership will be at deploying and using said resources is not (hence the multiple leadership changes).

Putin either pursues the war or he will end up in jail or dead. Russians are not kind to leaders who loose wars.

[Carlos Danger]

Just now, Rod said:

Russia is literally the worlds largest nuclear force

if they wanted to wipe Ukraine off the map they could do it in minutes 

Imagine if Russia funded a coup in Mexico and was building a big military in Mexico and was trying to set up a naval base in cancun. You think your government would stand for it? Doubt it 

Yea but that would be suicide. Plus there are questions as to the readiness of said nuclear weapons.

[Rod]

3 minutes ago, Carlos Danger said:

Yea but that would be suicide. Plus there are questions as to the readiness of said nuclear weapons.

Wonder what your government would do if someone was setting up shop on their doorstep 

 

[akvanden]

30 minutes ago, Highmark said:

You sound like Spin with your military expertise

It’s just a conversation we’re having, and it’s the same thing you said - intelligence was wrong, pick your reason as to why. Western intelligence thought the “special military operation” would be over in weeks. Right? And then Finland and Sweden joined NATO in response to Russia’s invasion, even though Russia is weak.

 

36 minutes ago, Highmark said:

Low on soldiers according to whom?

Russia. They mobilized 300k additional troops to send to Ukraine specifically. Certainly wouldn’t have needed to do that if it was over in mere weeks as initially planned.

On September 21, President Putin declared a partial mobilization in Russia. Defense Minister Sergey Shoigu clarified that 300,000 reservists primarily with combat experience would be called up, who would undergo training before being sent to the special military operation zone.

https://tass.com/defense/1530835/amp

 

38 minutes ago, Highmark said:

Which annexed region have they lost?

Never said they lost any, said they’re unable to control them as Ukrainian troops are still in those regions.

40 minutes ago, Highmark said:

Its not a surprise they would buy weapons from other countries.   There can be many reasons other than just their inability to keep up.

But that’s why they’re buy shells from North Korea - their inability to produce what they’re using.

 

42 minutes ago, Highmark said:

As far as shortages keep in mind our govt is telling us that we are way low on certain weapons.   What's that say about us and we aren't even fighting

Do you think we’d be using as much artillery if we had air superiority? Naval? Or any other tools at our disposal that we’re not giving to Ukraine? I can’t imagine a war where our soldiers are only using artillery and javelins.

[akvanden]

18 minutes ago, Carlos Danger said:

Putin either pursues the war or he will end up in jail or dead. Russians are not kind to leaders who loose wars.

He has to play the long game now. It’s a war of attrition and politics. Putin doesn’t have to worry nearly as much about politics or public opinion so he holds the advantage.

Edited November 29, 2023 by akvanden

[ArcticCrusher]

12 minutes ago, Rod said:

Wonder what your government would do if someone was setting up shop on their doorstep 

 

They can't compile that.

[akvanden]

26 minutes ago, ArcticCrusher said:

They can't compile that.

We’re not aggressive with our neighbors, so yeah, no compiling needed. 

[Rod]

Apparently fagden has zero knowledge of history 

[akvanden]

33 minutes ago, Rod said:

Apparently fagden has zero knowledge of history 

Tell us some more about how Russian nukes are part of the equation  in their invasion of Ukraine. 

[Highmark]

1 hour ago, akvanden said:

It’s just a conversation we’re having, and it’s the same thing you said - intelligence was wrong, pick your reason as to why. Western intelligence thought the “special military operation” would be over in weeks. Right? And then Finland and Sweden joined NATO in response to Russia’s invasion, even though Russia is weak.

 

Russia. They mobilized 300k additional troops to send to Ukraine specifically. Certainly wouldn’t have needed to do that if it was over in mere weeks as initially planned.

On September 21, President Putin declared a partial mobilization in Russia. Defense Minister Sergey Shoigu clarified that 300,000 reservists primarily with combat experience would be called up, who would undergo training before being sent to the special military operation zone.

https://tass.com/defense/1530835/amp

 

Never said they lost any, said they’re unable to control them as Ukrainian troops are still in those regions.

But that’s why they’re buy shells from North Korea - their inability to produce what they’re using.

 

Do you think we’d be using as much artillery if we had air superiority? Naval? Or any other tools at our disposal that we’re not giving to Ukraine? I can’t imagine a war where our soldiers are only using artillery and javelins.

Didn't say it would be the only thing we would be using just saying our govt openly said we are low for our own stockpiles.   I think announcing that was foolish.

Getting shells from NK could be a financial decision.   Weapons for oil/gas.   Possibly cheaper than making them.   Likely a combination they can't keep up and cheaper.

Not sure where you are getting Russia only planned for this to take a few weeks.  

Fact is its a cluster fuck we should have done everything to avoid getting involved in except stating Ukraine should not be in NATO. 

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by Highmark

[Carlos Danger]

44 minutes ago, Highmark said:

Didn't say it would be the only thing we would be using just saying our govt openly said we are low for our own stockpiles.   I think announcing that was foolish.

Getting shells from NK could be a financial decision.   Weapons for oil/gas.   Possibly cheaper than making them.   Likely a combination they can't keep up and cheaper.

Not sure where you are getting Russia only planned for this to take a few weeks.  

Fact is its a cluster fuck we should have done everything to avoid getting involved in except stating Ukraine should not be in NATO. 

 

Ukraine has done something that NATO could never do which is limiting the power of the Russian military. There at a point now where in many places on the front line they just send troops on foot as they have burnt up much of their tanks and armored trans port. They keep their airpower far from the front lines as well.

[ArcticCrusher]

7 minutes ago, Carlos Danger said:

Ukraine has done something that NATO could never do which is limiting the power of the Russian military. There at a point now where in many places on the front line they just send troops on foot as they have burnt up much of their tanks and armored trans port. They keep their airpower far from the front lines as well.

The average age of the Ukraine military soldier is over 50, a few weeks ago it was 43.

Russia is doing what they set out to do, that's rid the nazi scum from Ukraine.

 

[steve from amherst]

2 hours ago, Rod said:

Wonder what your government would do if someone was setting up shop on their doorstep 

 

We would remove our weapons from turkey 

[Carlos Danger]

3 minutes ago, ArcticCrusher said:

The average age of the Ukraine military soldier is over 50, a few weeks ago it was 43.

Russia is doing what they set out to do, that's rid the nazi scum from Ukraine.

 

Right but Russia has been burning through 800 to 900 troops a day in November. Standard military doctrine says you need 3 to 1 if you are the invading force and I think Russia is slipping below those numbers. In a half a year the Russians have not been able to move the lines. The Ukrainians on the other hand have crossed the Dinipro river and established a foot hold. 

[akvanden]

1 hour ago, Highmark said:

Not sure where you are getting Russia only planned for this to take a few weeks.  

“Russia planned to invade Ukraine over a 10-day period and thereafter occupy the country..”

https://www.rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/special-resources/preliminary-lessons-conventional-warfighting-russias-invasion-ukraine-february-july-2022?ssp=1&darkschemeovr=1&setlang=en-US&safesearch=moderate

 

“Putin thought Russia's military could capture Kyiv in 2 days, but it still hasn't in 20”

https://www.businessinsider.com/vladimir-putin-russian-forces-could-take-kyiv-ukraine-two-days-2022-3
 

“US intelligence officials are concerned that Kyiv could fall under Russian control within days, according to two sources familiar with the latest intelligence.

The sources said that the initial US assessment from before the invasion -- which anticipated that the Ukrainian capital would be overrun within one to four days of a Russian attack -- remains the current expectation.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/02/25/politics/kyiv-russia-ukraine-us-intelligence/index.html