akvanden Posted December 16, 2021 Share Posted December 16, 2021 1 hour ago, snoughnut said: What a load of BS. Unfortunate outcome? The exploitation of slave labor is intentional, it has nothing to do with luck. Slave labor still exists today, plenty of American corps. exploit foreign labor. I have a question, when American corps. exploit foreign slave labor does that qualify as them pulling up their bootstraps? I figured we were talking about these ideas in their purest form? If not, I guess we'll just say Stalin's USSR defines all communism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted December 16, 2021 Share Posted December 16, 2021 3 hours ago, akvanden said: Two parties, freely at their own will, negotiating an exchange of labor is exploitation? Good luck trying to convince everyone who has a job that they’re a slave being exploited. That will really get them to understand where you’re coming from. That sounds good, but that's not how it actually works. Capital has a monopsony on labor, which creates a coercive arrangement between labor and capital, not a cooperative one. How many times do I need to say this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Rigid1 Posted December 16, 2021 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted December 16, 2021 16 minutes ago, motonoggin said: That sounds good, but that's not how it actually works. Capital has a monopsony on labor, which creates a coercive arrangement between labor and capital, not a cooperative one. How many times do I need to say this? But not every business or company in the us is a monopsonistic company/business, Everyone in the world isn't working for Google, Walmart, or the coal mine in the small town that controls everything in that town.. Everything you say really seems like jealously, like you're bent that some people have prospered better than you and they should not be allowed to make more than you. Money doesn't buy happiness or respect bud.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted December 16, 2021 Share Posted December 16, 2021 9 minutes ago, Rigid1 said: But not every business or company in the us is a monopsonistic company/business, Everyone in the world isn't working for Google, Walmart, or the coal mine in the small town that controls everything in that town.. Everything you say really seems like jealously, like you're bent that some people have prospered better than you and they should not be allowed to make more than you. Money doesn't buy happiness or respect bud.. Individual businesses are largely irrelevant, capital holds the monopsony as part of the way the system is structured Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Rigid1 Posted December 16, 2021 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted December 16, 2021 @motonoggin don't you t you operate a monopsony? Very little competition, very few are able to be allowed to do what you do, and buyers of your products have very few options of who they can buy from?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akvanden Posted December 16, 2021 Share Posted December 16, 2021 35 minutes ago, motonoggin said: That sounds good, but that's not how it actually works. Capital has a monopsony on labor, which creates a coercive arrangement between labor and capital, not a cooperative one. How many times do I need to say this? You can say it as many times as you'd like. What's the alternative? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted December 16, 2021 Share Posted December 16, 2021 I think Moto is also under the false impression that people are actually equal 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Rigid1 Posted December 16, 2021 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted December 16, 2021 8 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Individual businesses are largely irrelevant, capital holds the monopsony as part of the way the system is structured Not really as even defined by monopsony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted December 16, 2021 Share Posted December 16, 2021 2 hours ago, Rigid1 said: But not every business or company in the us is a monopsonistic company/business, Everyone in the world isn't working for Google, Walmart, or the coal mine in the small town that controls everything in that town.. Everything you say really seems like jealously, like you're bent that some people have prospered better than you and they should not be allowed to make more than you. Money doesn't buy happiness or respect bud.. Everyone has to work for a capitalist, therefore capital itself as a whole holds the monopsony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted December 16, 2021 Share Posted December 16, 2021 1 hour ago, akvanden said: You can say it as many times as you'd like. What's the alternative? A system where workers own and control the means of production and have actual control of the value of their labor is what socialism prescribes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted December 16, 2021 Share Posted December 16, 2021 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Rigid1 Posted December 16, 2021 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted December 16, 2021 5 minutes ago, motonoggin said: A system where workers own and control the means of production and have actual control of the value of their labor is what socialism prescribes. Sounds like my business Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted December 16, 2021 Share Posted December 16, 2021 11 minutes ago, motonoggin said: A system where workers own and control the means of production and have actual control of the value of their labor is what socialism prescribes. The complete lack of economic understanding with you is amazing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcticCrusher Posted December 16, 2021 Share Posted December 16, 2021 10 minutes ago, motonoggin said: A system where workers own and control the means of production and have actual control of the value of their labor is what socialism prescribes. Unfortunately, most either don't want to or more likely can't commit to the responsibility. It would be equivalent to a business run 100% by family members. Dead on arrival. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted December 16, 2021 Share Posted December 16, 2021 2 minutes ago, ArcticCrusher said: Unfortunately, most either don't want to or more likely can't commit to the responsibility. It would be equivalent to a business run 100% by family members. Dead on arrival. Plus how do you control prices without totalitarianism Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akvanden Posted December 16, 2021 Share Posted December 16, 2021 23 minutes ago, motonoggin said: A system where workers own and control the means of production and have actual control of the value of their labor is what socialism prescribes. That sounds lovely, in theory. What happens if I value my labor at a higher level then the guy standing next to me on the widget line? Do I then turn into slave labor? Or is that just the contract that I signed when I agreed to work in the socialist factory, x amount of labor for x price? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zambroski Posted December 16, 2021 Share Posted December 16, 2021 1 minute ago, akvanden said: That sounds lovely, in theory. What happens if I value my labor at a higher level then the guy standing next to me on the widget line? Do I then turn into slave labor? Or is that just the contract that I signed when I agreed to work in the socialist factory, x amount of labor for x price? Yes and yes. In these ways, our current system of capitalism is similar. But, in our system, your "contract" is a voluntary endeavor and can be terminated which also includes your "higher value" gets moved up to a more appropriate position and paid more accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zambroski Posted December 16, 2021 Share Posted December 16, 2021 30 minutes ago, ACE said: He should have never been charged for this at all. But now, he'd be on death row for killing the man who just wanted to express his sexual feelings for a small boy. My, how fucked up we've all become. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted December 16, 2021 Share Posted December 16, 2021 14 minutes ago, akvanden said: That sounds lovely, in theory. What happens if I value my labor at a higher level then the guy standing next to me on the widget line? Do I then turn into slave labor? Or is that just the contract that I signed when I agreed to work in the socialist factory, x amount of labor for x price? The workplace would be a democracy, and structural details would be decided by voting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zambroski Posted December 16, 2021 Share Posted December 16, 2021 7 minutes ago, motonoggin said: The workplace would be a democracy, and structural details would be decided by voting. So, if like he questioned, he clearly feels his work is more valuable than the guy standing next to him. Maybe it's even clear to see. The floor would vote for......wut exactly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcticCrusher Posted December 17, 2021 Share Posted December 17, 2021 18 hours ago, Zambroski said: So, if like he questioned, he clearly feels his work is more valuable than the guy standing next to him. Maybe it's even clear to see. The floor would vote for......wut exactly? It might just work, "In the Metaverse". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zambroski Posted December 17, 2021 Share Posted December 17, 2021 13 minutes ago, ArcticCrusher said: It might just work, "In the Metaverse". Make believe utopias that have never been proven to work are fun! Dedicating your life to try and make them real is insane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted December 17, 2021 Share Posted December 17, 2021 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zambroski Posted December 17, 2021 Share Posted December 17, 2021 23 hours ago, ACE said: I think Moto is also under the false impression that people are actually equal This is the common denominator with many that start to illogically argue profusely about “equality”. 21 hours ago, ACE said: Plus how do you control prices without totalitarianism Well, you can’t. What happens in communism (after socialism has failed) is, as the costs rise as a direct result in reduced supply, larger and larger portions start being taken from the masses so the ones in power can maintain their lives as they say they are “figuring things out”. It’s only. A matter of time before it crumbles. This has been proven over and over…and over…and over and over and over….and over… 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkisNH Posted December 18, 2021 Share Posted December 18, 2021 On 12/16/2021 at 11:44 AM, motonoggin said: That sounds good, but that's not how it actually works. Capital has a monopsony on labor, which creates a coercive arrangement between labor and capital, not a cooperative one. How many times do I need to say this? Until you get it right.. Don't like your job quit...if you find yourself without skills look in the fucking mirror. Heck you make 100k+ growing a weed that will literally grow outside by itself once sexed properly. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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