Gold Member BOHICA Posted March 25, 2023 Gold Member Share Posted March 25, 2023 (edited) Tesla is going to force the legacy automakers into another bailout. They are already driving Chinese automakers out of business or into consolidation schemes with just one factory in China. https://www.gurufocus.com/news/1963828/tesla-and-debt-a-masterclass-for-the-auto-industry https://cleantechnica.com/2023/03/24/how-tesla-became-debt-free-in-just-two-decades/ Tesla has become nearly debt-free in just two decades, a feat that’s unheard of in the auto industry’s more-than-century-old history. Guru Focus writer Matthew Cobb breaks down how Tesla’s debt compares to those of the two largest U.S. automakers, GM and Ford, showing that both of the legacy manufacturers are swimming in debt. Meanwhile, Tesla could pay off its remaining debt tomorrow if it wanted to. Currently, Ford has a total long-term debt of $140 billion, while GM is right behind with $115 billion in the same category. Tesla, on the other hand, has just $5 billion in long-term debt, and plenty of cash to show for. In fact, the company has $22 billion in free cash flow, meaning that its cash minus debt gives it a $17 billion surplus. Ford GM Tesla Total Long Term Debt $140 Billion $115 Billion $5 Billion Market Cap $48.23 Billion $50.93 Billion $548 Billion Total Sales $158 Billion $156 Billion $81 Billion Cash Available $44 Billion $31 Billion $22 Billion Debt Minus Cash $94 Billion $84 Billion $17 Billion SURPLUS in Cash Edited March 25, 2023 by BOHICA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Member 800renegaderider Posted March 25, 2023 Gold Member Share Posted March 25, 2023 Tesla is massively subsidized by the government Tesla has received more than $3.2 billion worth of direct and indirect California subsidies and market mechanisms since 2009 The White House on Wednesday announced that Tesla, with the support of $7.5 billion in government subsidies, will open a portion of its U.S. Supercharger and Destination Charger network to non-Tesla EVs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Danger Posted March 25, 2023 Share Posted March 25, 2023 I remember one of the GM CEO's back in the 90s talking about when he took over he thought he was going to be running a car company but instead ran a retirement investment firm that made cars on the side. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Member BOHICA Posted March 25, 2023 Author Gold Member Share Posted March 25, 2023 2 hours ago, 800renegaderider said: Tesla is massively subsidized by the government Tesla has received more than $3.2 billion worth of direct and indirect California subsidies and market mechanisms since 2009 The White House on Wednesday announced that Tesla, with the support of $7.5 billion in government subsidies, will open a portion of its U.S. Supercharger and Destination Charger network to non-Tesla EVs Massive debt even after being bailout at taxpayers expense a few times now. Tesla would be 100 percent debt free with a 5 billion dollar check. GM and Ford are going defunct…. That debt is not sustainable that they both carry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Danger Posted March 25, 2023 Share Posted March 25, 2023 5 minutes ago, BOHICA said: Massive debt even after being bailout at taxpayers expense a few times now. Tesla would be 100 percent debt free with a 5 billion dollar check. GM and Ford are going defunct…. That debt is not sustainable that they both carry. Tesla's plant in California is the old Toyota/GM joint venture that Tesla got for pennies on the dollar. Tesla would not be in such great shakes if it did not have the bones of the US car business to pick over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainecat Posted March 25, 2023 Share Posted March 25, 2023 Cash for clunkers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Member 800renegaderider Posted March 26, 2023 Gold Member Share Posted March 26, 2023 3 hours ago, BOHICA said: Massive debt even after being bailout at taxpayers expense a few times now. Tesla would be 100 percent debt free with a 5 billion dollar check. GM and Ford are going defunct…. That debt is not sustainable that they both carry. “Without taxpayer support, however, neither Tesla nor SpaceX would have survived this long” thanks tax payers for keeping Tesla alive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Vandelay Posted March 26, 2023 Share Posted March 26, 2023 Yep, Elon has played the handout game better than anyone. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deephaven Posted March 26, 2023 Share Posted March 26, 2023 And still cuts corners like crazy to save. Too bad, really makes the cars pieces of shit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkisNH Posted March 26, 2023 Share Posted March 26, 2023 I remember when the auto bailouts were getting debated why the big 3 couldn't compete with the Japanese. At the time there was something like 2500.00 in legacy costs per car that Japan didn't have. That's why the quality was so much better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkisNH Posted March 26, 2023 Share Posted March 26, 2023 8 hours ago, Art Vandelay said: Yep, Elon has played the handout game better than anyone. Did Elon play the handout game or did our Govt through tax policy create the vacuum. Chicken or the Egg? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayward Posted March 26, 2023 Share Posted March 26, 2023 13 hours ago, Mainecat said: Cash for clunkers Cheap used cars for the lower middle class have basically been non-existant since the Obama administration's little shirade years ago. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Member BOHICA Posted March 26, 2023 Author Gold Member Share Posted March 26, 2023 (edited) 10 hours ago, 800renegaderider said: “Without taxpayer support, however, neither Tesla nor SpaceX would have survived this long” thanks tax payers for keeping Tesla alive Looks like Ford and GM can thank the taxpayer as well by looking at that chart. Those 2 make 10 times less EV combined then Tesla does and combine tax payer help looks to be as much if not more combined then Tesla. Throw in the bailouts of BushObama and they get a lot of coin from the gov. Neither GM,Ford,or Stellantis USA would exist with out the 2008-2012 tax payer gift Edited March 26, 2023 by BOHICA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member steve from amherst Posted March 26, 2023 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted March 26, 2023 (edited) 41 minutes ago, SkisNH said: I remember when the auto bailouts were getting debated why the big 3 couldn't compete with the Japanese. At the time there was something like 2500.00 in legacy costs per car that Japan didn't have. That's why the quality was so much better. At tghe time of the bailout, for every 2 workers, GM had 3.7 retirees on the books Edited March 26, 2023 by steve from amherst Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayward Posted March 26, 2023 Share Posted March 26, 2023 7 minutes ago, steve from amherst said: At tghe time of the bailout, for every 2 workers, GM had 3.7 retirees on the books Sounds just like our local school district. Taxes through the roof and the young teachers starting out cry they make peanuts. Well, look down the road after you retire and see what you'll be working for someday. Not today, but someday. Wonder what a retired auto worker's pension amounts to? It's gotta look pretty sweet, and starting out at the age of what, 52? 55? 58? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkisNH Posted March 26, 2023 Share Posted March 26, 2023 Govt pensions...state cops, fire fighters and administrators will earn more in retirement than while working. I'm 100% positive that this is not sustainable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spin_dry Posted March 26, 2023 Share Posted March 26, 2023 GM pulled the plug on pick up truck production. They currently have 100 days of inventory sitting on the lots with no buyers. The goal of companies in post pandemic times is to supply only 40-50 days of product. Most people can't afford new vehicles. It's going to get really ugly out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Member BOHICA Posted March 26, 2023 Author Gold Member Share Posted March 26, 2023 5 minutes ago, spin_dry said: GM pulled the plug on pick up truck production. They currently have 100 days of inventory sitting on the lots with no buyers. The goal of companies in post pandemic times is to supply only 40-50 days of product. Most people can't afford new vehicles. It's going to get really ugly out there. Pile of inventory in my area…. Ram has some good size discounts going. Ford and GM seem to be holding off the large discounts. Those that got bent over by dealers with dealer markups the past few years are in a pretty tough spot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spin_dry Posted March 26, 2023 Share Posted March 26, 2023 2 minutes ago, BOHICA said: Pile of inventory in my area…. Ram has some good size discounts going. Ford and GM seem to be holding off the large discounts. Those that got bent over by dealers with dealer markups the past few years are in a pretty tough spot. Demographics of the Tesla buyer is what's keeping their sales higher. High income and older. That's getting stretched by the day. It's one of the reasons the price of a used Tesla has collapsed. High income buyers want new. The prices have somewhat stabilized for now, but it's something that no doubt is concerning to Musk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Member BOHICA Posted March 26, 2023 Author Gold Member Share Posted March 26, 2023 5 minutes ago, spin_dry said: Demographics of the Tesla buyer is what's keeping their sales higher. High income and older. That's getting stretched by the day. It's one of the reasons the price of a used Tesla has collapsed. High income buyers want new. The prices have somewhat stabilized for now, but it's something that no doubt is concerning to Musk. Biggest reason Tesla used have come down is 3 parts. Biggest is price drop, 2 is tax credit and 3 is softening market. I think last data that the back log for tesla on orders has increased since the beginning of the year….. up over 100,000 backlog orders The Tesla dealership in my town late last year had about 20-25 new cars in inventory to sell. Now they have zero model 3’s, one new Y, 1 demo S and 2 X’s which one is a demo The 3 is an extreme bargain if you have at least $7500 in income tax liability. The Y also is a bargain currently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spin_dry Posted March 26, 2023 Share Posted March 26, 2023 1 minute ago, BOHICA said: Biggest reason Tesla used have come down is 3 parts. Biggest is price drop, 2 is tax credit and 3 is softening market. I think last data that the back log for tesla on orders has increased since the beginning of the year….. up over 100,000 backlog orders The Tesla dealership in my town late last year had about 20-25 new cars in inventory to sell. Now they have zero model 3’s, one new Y, 1 demo S and 2 X’s which one is a demo The 3 is an extreme bargain if you have at least $7500 in income tax liability. The Y also is a bargain currently. That $7500 means nothing to most middle class buyers. Teslas remain a vehicle for upper middle to upper economic class. Repair costs on the used models out of warranty is frightening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Member BOHICA Posted March 26, 2023 Author Gold Member Share Posted March 26, 2023 (edited) 7 minutes ago, spin_dry said: That $7500 means nothing to most middle class buyers. Teslas remain a vehicle for upper middle to upper economic class. Repair costs on the used models out of warranty is frightening. About $67,000 on a single filer doing standard deduction to have $7500 in tax liability. Well under 40k and they are in a model 3 after tax credit. Model 3 is the middle class preferred luxury car Millenials and younger prefer Tesla over any other car brand. Tesla market share and sales will increase this year. Compared to previous years. Edited March 26, 2023 by BOHICA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spin_dry Posted March 26, 2023 Share Posted March 26, 2023 4 minutes ago, BOHICA said: About $67,000 on a single filer doing standard deduction to have $7500 in tax liability. Well under 40k and they are in a model 3 after tax credit. Model 3 is the middle class preferred luxury car Millenials and younger prefer Tesla over any other car brand. Tesla market share and sales will increase this year. Compared to previous years. A single filer making $67k ought not be purchasing a vehicle carrying that type of loan. Couple that with the current interest rates. That’s totally ridiculous. Here’s Tesla buyer demographics https://hedgescompany.com/blog/2019/03/tesla-model-3-demographics-income/#demographics_of_tesla_model_3_owners_average_income 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Member BOHICA Posted March 26, 2023 Author Gold Member Share Posted March 26, 2023 (edited) 10 minutes ago, spin_dry said: A single filer making $67k ought not be purchasing a vehicle carrying that type of loan. Couple that with the current interest rates. That’s totally ridiculous. Here’s Tesla buyer demographics https://hedgescompany.com/blog/2019/03/tesla-model-3-demographics-income/#demographics_of_tesla_model_3_owners_average_income Yep. 2 school teachers in a house worth of income is a model 3 buyer. but a $67k filer shouldnt be in any car… gas, oil, and combustion car maintenance is a huge expense https://www.businessinsider.com/typical-tesla-driver-owner-income-age-careers-demographics-2022-10?amp Edited March 26, 2023 by BOHICA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Member Stephen Hawking Posted March 26, 2023 Gold Member Share Posted March 26, 2023 7 hours ago, BOHICA said: Yep. 2 school teachers in a house worth of income is a model 3 buyer. but a $67k filer shouldnt be in any car… gas, oil, and combustion car maintenance is a huge expense https://www.businessinsider.com/typical-tesla-driver-owner-income-age-careers-demographics-2022-10?amp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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