would a small bore engine in a modern chassis sled sell today?

[Crnr2Crnr 2,182]

800 this, 850 that... Turbo's and Turbo 4's are the norm and electric is coming.

I'm not talking about a 550 fan or a detuned 600, but a true quick revving 440 or 500 F.I. power valve EPA friendly 90-100hp twin in a modern chassis.  The last of the Mohicans in this class to my knowledge was the ZR 4000 RR or LXR (500 Zuke), which did not sell well, did not meet EPA and was killed by Textron.  I'm not sold on the b-Last as it is as a performance chassis or engine, others may and likely will argue this perspective. 

Looking for something else I ran across this old article which takes me back  https://snowgoer.com/snowmobiles/1999-500-class-shoot-out/2466/    

Edit: Anyone know how many Indy 500's were sold in their prime years?  I still see some out there on occasion.

Edited November 17, 2021 by Crnr2Crnr

[Jimmy Snacks 22,916]

Yes...IMO something like that would sell and sell well. 

[800renegaderider 2,546]

Be nice if the companies had a full line up like in the old days 340s up to turbos. I think a 440 would sell well. What’s not to like good hp, geared low, clutched right, light weight equals fun. 

[Crnr2Crnr 2,182]

2 minutes ago, 800renegaderider said:

Be nice if the companies had a full line up like in the old days 340s up to turbos. I think a 440 would sell well. What’s not to like good hp, geared low, clutched right, light weight equals fun. 

idk about multiple small engines, but a fast revving twin under 500cc in a decent 128/129 chassis with modern suspension and 'good' shocks, yes.

the b-Last in the bare bones 13/16ths chassis.... meh.  same goes for the 85hp Doo econo-box or the Polaris Evo

for me that is, others might find these sleds to be adequately awesome and claim to see them everywhere being ridden by renters or children.    

[Zambroski 24,069]

I think the industry and all it’s players have tried to go that direction and it hasn’t worked.  Those days, like the triples, are over. Bigger, faster, and more expensive is where it has gone and continue to go.  I see sleds reaching a consistent 20k average within 10 years.

[Sled_Hed 1,359]

3 minutes ago, Crnr2Crnr said:

idk about multiple small engines, but a fast revving twin under 500cc in a decent 128/129 chassis with modern suspension and 'good' shocks, yes.

the b-Last in the bare bones 13/16ths chassis.... meh.  same goes for the 85hp Doo econo-box or the Polaris Evo

for me that is, others might find these sleds to be adequately awesome and claim to see them everywhere being ridden by renters or children.    

@ZR6000RR 

[Crnr2Crnr 2,182]

6 minutes ago, Sled_Hed said:

@ZR6000RR 

[Crnr2Crnr 2,182]

11 minutes ago, Zambroski said:

I think the industry and all it’s players have tried to go that direction and it hasn’t worked.  Those days, like the triples, are over. Bigger, faster, and more expensive is where it has gone and continue to go.  I see sleds reaching a consistent 20k average within 10 years.

agree, and that's where I wonder if there is a potential niche to fill.  something a high school or college kid could afford payments on and beat the piss out of it without breaking the sled or the bank.  fwiw I don't foresee todays youth jumping right into the hypersled category unless they've been brought up in the sport, and if it can run 90mph and take a beating like a Tijuana hooker... even better.

maybe that could be their marketing point...    our new 500 XCR/ZR/MXZ can run 90mph and take a beating like a Tijuana hooker   

 

[Zambroski 24,069]

6 minutes ago, Crnr2Crnr said:

agree, and that's where I wonder if there is a potential niche to fill.  something a high school or college kid could afford payments on and beat the piss out of it without breaking the sled or the bank.  fwiw I don't foresee todays youth jumping right into the hypersled category unless they've been brought up in the sport, and if it can run 90mph and take a beating like a Tijuana hooker... even better.

maybe that could be their marketing point...    our new 500 XCR/ZR/MXZ can run 90mph and take a beating like a Tijuana hooker   

 

Kids are just different these days.  Literally, if they can’t get the biggest and best, they’d rather not play at all.  It’s weird to me.  My sleds are obviously way beyond my younger year sleds but, the fun and adrenaline of it is the same.  Well, I can die faster now but still, I’d ride clapped out shit all day when I was young rather than choose nothing.  That’s just idiotic to me.

[Deephaven 3,053]

The Polaris 600 and 800 weigh the same.  What is their benefit of making another variation to sell 3k of them a year?  If you want less power just detune a 600.

Funny as well since the 6&8 cost the same, but if they built another motor it would have to cover the tooling changes making it more expensive.

[Crnr2Crnr 2,182]

2 minutes ago, Zambroski said:

Kids are just different these days.  Literally, if they can’t get the biggest and best, they’d rather not play at all.  It’s weird to me.  My sleds are obviously way beyond my younger year sleds but, the fun and adrenaline of it is the same.  Well, I can die faster now but still, I’d ride clapped out shit all day when I was young rather than choose nothing.  That’s just idiotic to me.

idk, if there's one 'good' thing the pandemic brought about it was people rediscovering being outside.  be it on mountain bikes, motorcycles, atv's, sxs's, sleds, snowshoes, rollerblades, kayaks or a unicycle... people got outdoors for 'fun'.  on the FB group I frequent (& mock) there seems to be some younger guys fixing up or fucking up older sleds that aren't out of the price point they can afford to purchase.  this is a good thing and I try to be helpful when they aren't asking about a can or some other complete waste of $ that has nothing to do with keeping them on the trail.  it's pretty easy to pick out the one's that have some mechanical inclination, and the 'dad wrote a check' types.  

idk about the other brands but the F-chassis sleds and SnoPro's are still within reach and seem to be popular amongst that crowd so maybe there's some hope for the future... 

 

3 minutes ago, Deephaven said:

The Polaris 600 and 800 weigh the same.  What is their benefit of making another variation to sell 3k of them a year?  If you want less power just detune a 600.

Funny as well since the 6&8 cost the same, but if they built another motor it would have to cover the tooling changes making it more expensive.

right, but do you recall me trying to help you find a SP500 or ZR4000 like... two seasons ago when you were in the market for one?  to Doo's credit, they have different keys or something to idiot-child proof the 600/800's to an extent.  personally I'd rather wring out every ounce of juice you can squeeze out of a 440/500 than a 'limited' 600.   so if they offered a decent chassis, with decent suspension/shocks/hardware, a no BS gauge or 'gadgetry', a 500cc or under 87 octane burning mill and kept the price point around $10K msrp... win?

[Deephaven 3,053]

Hey I owned a 4000 and will again once the price drops.  My comment was different.  No economy of scale in making the motor unless it is a premium offering as it will just add cost.  

[Crnr2Crnr 2,182]

13 minutes ago, Deephaven said:

Hey I owned a 4000 and will again once the price drops.  My comment was different.  No economy of scale in making the motor unless it is a premium offering as it will just add cost.  

 

for what, 15 minutes   did your kids get to ride it?  I keep looking for a decent itm RR but it looks like Iowa got cleaned out.   

to the contrary and to their credit, Polaris built the 650 off the 850 case... and it's probably going to be their most popular selling engine as some have realized for trail riding, 650 is enough.  so if it's as simple (tongue in cheek) as tossing new jugs and slugs on an existing proven case slinging a lighter crank/rods/slugs, how much R&D and tooling is realistically required?  granted neither of us is an OEM trying to financially scale this...  

 

Edited November 17, 2021 by Crnr2Crnr

[Deephaven 3,053]

Almost 3 weeks and no....to be fair I thought there would be more and the timing would have been good but the Covid price war fucked that up.

Even just slugs has engineering cost for no cost reduction in manufacturing netting a cost gain.  Sort of the opposite direction that share holders want 

[Crnr2Crnr 2,182]

8 minutes ago, Deephaven said:

Almost 3 weeks and no....to be fair I thought there would be more and the timing would have been good but the Covid price war fucked that up.

Even just slugs has engineering cost for no cost reduction in manufacturing netting a cost gain.  Sort of the opposite direction that share holders want 

so Cat using half an 800 case makes more sense than putting different pistons and cylinders on a 600 to give them a 440?

nah... people would buy a 440 

[Not greg b 501]

Two words for you. B Last 

[Doomxz600 3,013]

Be nice if a small cc sled WITH a smaller price point could be had but those two points don't go together. Ski-Doo tried it but put the price tag right up with the 550f so why bother. Polaris kept the 340 in the line up longer than anyone and the is still 550f around but a detuned EVO is 6200$. Not to sure bout the little Cat but dealer have them on hand from what I can see. 
 

I had fun on my 292, 340, 380 and 550's but haven't ridden out of my house since the sl292 thirty years ago.

[Deephaven 3,053]

Is it just a price point question?  Or is the smaller engine desirable even if built off a larger engine (ie same weight)?

[mnstang 957]

It all sounds good until you realize it would cost the same as an 800.  You still have all the same components and they're all going to cost the same.

Even like the Blast, it's considerably less money and all you guys still hate on the price.  It's one less cylinder, how much less can it really be from the bigger two strokes?

It sounds like the op just wants a modern day zr440, at a discounted price.  I hate to break it to you but neither will happen.

A snappy racey high output small bore won't meet emissions and won't cost any less to make.  Granted I know that the small bores aren't just "enough" as you put it, but better.. but that's a tiny minority of sledders who appreciate that.  The demographic for new sled buyers is a fat lazy boomer.  They want to look and feel racey but in reality they can't even pull start their fucking machine.

The guys that really want what you're saying is few and they aren't looking to spend 10-12k when they can buy a used machine and get what you're talking about.. and really the machines of the past do what you're describing better than modern machines.  I don't think you've thought it through to think of what that actually looks like as a sellable, finished product with a realistic price tag from the manufacturer.  These sled companies can't even sell a sled without estart and you want a full on boy-racer sled for adults.  It's just not going to happen.

The 600rxc is the modern equivalent to the old zr440.  It's the current race sled.  It's maybe not as raw as what you want but that's the way the manufacturing has gone, the boomers cried long enough for fit and finish and nvh and has swayed the entire market along with the price tags.

[mnstang 957]

10 hours ago, Crnr2Crnr said:

so Cat using half an 800 case makes more sense than putting different pistons and cylinders on a 600 to give them a 440?

nah... people would buy a 440 

At least with the blast you do have one less cylinder, piston, head, injector, and a smaller crank.  So there is some real $$ savings there.  A smaller bore 600 would have all the same parts and would cost the same as a 600, or 800.  I know cost is only half the equation for your little pipe dream, but try pitching this to any manufacturer... Hey you should make a slower sled that costs the same to build but you'll sell it for less.  Yeah they'll be chomping at that bit.  You're the only guy really advocating for this sled and I'd have serious doubts you'd even buy one if they did make it.  You seemed pretty smitten with that 128 600 Polaris a year or two ago but I don't think you ever bought one..

[Crnr2Crnr 2,182]

predictable as the sun rising

[mnstang 957]

And just as factual as predicting the sun to rise.

[p51mstg 281]

I think my favorite snowmobile of all time was our 2004 XC 500 SP.  My wife loved that sled, because it was a looker.  She didn’t particularly care to ride it, because it could get a little gnarly at higher speeds until I studded it.  But, by then it was “mine”. That had plenty of power and was a lot of fun.  70 felt like 100.

I think almost all experienced snowmobilers fall into the trap of thinking that new snowmobilers will love what we love and nothing could be further from the truth.  There will come a time when the price and quality of used 500cc liquids fall to the point that new riders won’t be climbing over each other to buy one and they’ll look for new.  

There are too many kids and new riders who should be introduced to snowmobiling on something that won’t try to kill them if they accidentally grab too much throttle when they should be braking.  The market may not be there now, but if we, WE, can keep all those new people interested in this great winter activity, then the demand will increase over time.

[zr800m10 59]

"Once upon a time" most machines fitted into a racingclass, can´t this discussion be traced back to that? Now there are mostly 600s racing, and no mod-class.

I believe it was the mod-sleds that drove the evolution of the sleds forward a lot, what wins on Sunday sells on Monday. And when the next generation of racers 440s, 600s came along the manufacturers could detune previous generation of racers and sell them to the public.

Does this make sense or am I just rambling here?

BRING BACK THE MODS ;-)

[jdsky 613]

 

 

85HP on the spec sheet but after taking a quick spin on one last season it definitely feels stronger so my guess is at least 90HP.  EFI, simple straightforward design.  The blast is a hunk of shit sitting next to this for the same money.....