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would a small bore engine in a modern chassis sled sell today?


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19 hours ago, Not greg b said:

Two words for you. B Last 

I'm surprised no one picked up on that in this discussion.

I know a few hard core guys that bought a pile of those things just to play. 

It's almost ironic.  They have plenty of big boy sleds and a bunch of goodies nailed on them.  We're talking air adders, belt drives, and composite frames etc.  Big bucks. . .  and proto products to beat on all day.

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agree, and that's where I wonder if there is a potential niche to fill.  something a high school or college kid could afford payments on and beat the piss out of it without breaking the sled or the ba

WOW!!  Spending ~$5000 on my 12,000 mile 2018 XCR Switchback 800 for a new track, motor, clutches and other misc things isn't looking so bad after all.

have one stock engine 500 and one with moar powa stock engine unit works great for 96% of the trails I frequent  

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1 hour ago, jdsky said:

Rotax 600 EFI engine

 

 

85HP on the spec sheet but after taking a quick spin on one last season it definitely feels stronger so my guess is at least 90HP.  EFI, simple straightforward design.  The blast is a hunk of shit sitting next to this for the same money.....

 

MXZ Sport

The B-last is a hunk of shit coming from any direction, but at least it isn't as ugly as that MXZ.  Holy fucking bad.

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57 minutes ago, Deephaven said:

The B-last is a hunk of shit coming from any direction, but at least it isn't as ugly as that MXZ.  Holy fucking bad.

Well, it’s sounds like a solid machine…it’s just a bad idea from a marketing price point to the beating it will take on resale. It’s clear a stay at home mom marketing team came up with this idea for their kids.

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By hunk of shit I meant pointless to build, bad choice of words as I've done zero reading nor do I give one rats ass about it.  If they would have put a detuned 600 in that chassis perhaps that could be different.

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35 minutes ago, Deephaven said:

By hunk of shit I meant pointless to build, bad choice of words as I've done zero reading nor do I give one rats ass about it.  If they would have put a detuned 600 in that chassis perhaps that could be different.

I’ve never been a proponent of the blast or any budget that was pilfered for it.  It’s a complete waste of time.  Who fucking pitched this shit?  Who authorized it?  

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I thought the Blast was fun, but couldn’t see an application for it (for me).  I’m withholding judgment for others, that’s up to them.  

The MXZ is ugly, definitely.  Reminds me of cars like Scion, and that asymmetric SUV thing from Honda - it’s like there’s an ugly contest that these designers are desperate to win.

When it comes to bad ideas, those people have the ability to pitch an idea in such a way that people who can sniff out the tiniest amount of bullshit are convinced it isn’t.  Those people manage to start things they can’t finish and leave the organization before they need to.  They’re not usually fired, in my observation, they just leave before anyone figures it out.  The exception would be whatsherface from Theranos, but that’s an extreme case, anyway.

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11 hours ago, Zambroski said:

I’ve never been a proponent of the blast or any budget that was pilfered for it.  It’s a complete waste of time.  Who fucking pitched this shit?  Who authorized it?  

They could have spent that development $ on a 500cc top end and sold it in the SX chassis with basic IFP shocks. 

Or, a new chassis and a 900:lol: 

 

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33 minutes ago, Crnr2Crnr said:

They could have spent that development $ on a 500cc top end and sold it in the SX chassis with basic IFP shocks. 

Or, a new chassis and a 900:lol: 

 

Or, now that they have already spend the development $ sell the Blast at a price point that makes sense like $6K and at least dominate the entry level sled market all the way to full size.  Cat has always had great options for kids rides now the 200 and Blast just seem like stupid money for what they are and the Blast is beginner but unlike Doo and Poo there is no way to control the throttle or top speed for a new rider or smaller rider just getting going. 

Both of my kids started out on a Kitty Cat ($500 used) to a 120 ($1700 new) to a 550F ($3K barely used) or in my daughters case a 370F ($3700 new). 

Agree, Cat would have been better off just bypassing the Bust completely for what it is and bring on the chassis and motor the last of their faithful have been desperately waiting forever for.

 

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1 hour ago, jdsky said:

Or, now that they have already spend the development $ sell the Blast at a price point that makes sense like $6K and at least dominate the entry level sled market all the way to full size.  Cat has always had great options for kids rides now the 200 and Blast just seem like stupid money for what they are and the Blast is beginner but unlike Doo and Poo there is no way to control the throttle or top speed for a new rider or smaller rider just getting going. 

Both of my kids started out on a Kitty Cat ($500 used) to a 120 ($1700 new) to a 550F ($3K barely used) or in my daughters case a 370F ($3700 new). 

Agree, Cat would have been better off just bypassing the Bust completely for what it is and bring on the chassis and motor the last of their faithful have been desperately waiting forever for. 

 

 

 

From the 1999 article if anyone actually perused it. 

In that dream sequence of events, you need the perfect machine — one that can take the punishment, has enough power, has handling that turns you into an expert rider and is light enough so you can control its every move. You need a true ditch-banger. 

Whether you see yourself in that exact scenario or not, many people will be drawn to the 500 class Performance Specials. 

 

So, the Evo, Cheap MXZ nor the bLast fits this category.  The 600 XCR, XRS or RR sorta do but look at the price tags on those sleds, from the perspective of a young person without the financial means of your average middle aged adult.  Now consider as others have mentioned that sleds seem to be rapidly approaching $20k... for a machine your lucky to get 90 days of use from.

The 'economy' sleds make sense but does the bang for the buck?  Also, in the FB groups I peruse the young guys seem interested in doing wheelies, brapping and ditch banging.  There's also the crowd buying old race sleds and trying to trail convert them @Zambroski as an example.  The pickle with the newer race sleds is that it seems to be a gigantic pain in the ass to get a 91 octane trail tune.  So what are these youngins to do? 

 

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35 minutes ago, Crnr2Crnr said:

So what are these youngins to do? 

I guess I was never really young enough in this sport to crave a true performance oriented ditch banger.  When I used to actually enjoy ditch riding it was at a time when my ZR600 was already a few seasons old and I really did not care if it came into accidental contact with a hidden rock, post or buried culvert.  It also had decent enough shocks to make it fun.  It was my son at the age of 13 that did finally kill the sled by landing it on a rock hard frozen mogul and completely destroyed the bulk head and heat exchanger.

Today's youngin's are totally fucked at the moment but when the used market eventually gets back to something that resembles normal there should be some fairly decent "higher end" 600 class sleds around that they can pick up for a decent price, rebuild or replace the shocks and bang ditches, tail stand and freestyle to their hearts content.

One of the biggest let downs with the Bust for some was that Cat did not put a 600 in it.  Maybe they will, that price tag will look a little better, and it may become a platform for the younger generation to modify.  I just don't see a time now in the sport where the manufacturer's will cannibalize the higher end models with a cheaper priced high performance entry level sled with a motor that is unique to it.

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2 hours ago, Crnr2Crnr said:

They could have spent that development $ on a 500cc top end and sold it in the SX chassis with basic IFP shocks. 

Or, a new chassis and a 900:lol: 

 

It could have been spent ANYWHERE better.

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54 minutes ago, Crnr2Crnr said:

From the 1999 article if anyone actually perused it. 

In that dream sequence of events, you need the perfect machine — one that can take the punishment, has enough power, has handling that turns you into an expert rider and is light enough so you can control its every move. You need a true ditch-banger. 

Whether you see yourself in that exact scenario or not, many people will be drawn to the 500 class Performance Specials. 

 

So, the Evo, Cheap MXZ nor the bLast fits this category.  The 600 XCR, XRS or RR sorta do but look at the price tags on those sleds, from the perspective of a young person without the financial means of your average middle aged adult.  Now consider as others have mentioned that sleds seem to be rapidly approaching $20k... for a machine your lucky to get 90 days of use from.

The 'economy' sleds make sense but does the bang for the buck?  Also, in the FB groups I peruse the young guys seem interested in doing wheelies, brapping and ditch banging.  There's also the crowd buying old race sleds and trying to trail convert them @Zambroski as an example.  The pickle with the newer race sleds is that it seems to be a gigantic pain in the ass to get a 91 octane trail tune.  So what are these youngins to do? 

 

It’s simple, Cat could have dropped the skid, high end shocks, all the extras and got close to that price point.  Re-engineering a mid size sled is a waste.

Also, and FTR, I don’t advocate cheap parents trying to get their kids involved by buying a race sled that is cheaper than the rest.  There is a reason it is cheaper and IT IS NOT because of structure or components.  It’s because many know what you are getting and it’s not a forgiving machine especially for inexperienced riders.

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23 minutes ago, Zambroski said:

It could have been spent ANYWHERE better.

Like... the graphics department?  I heard Textron gave them a $60 budget for the 60th anniversary badge concept. 

 

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12 minutes ago, Crnr2Crnr said:

Like... the graphics department?  I heard Textron gave them a $60 budget for the 60th anniversary badge concept. 

 

Personally, I don’t give two fucks about anniversary models.  I’ve been unimpressed with what Textron has done so far BUT, what they have done is bail some water, got rid of old inventory and introduced a good and efficient way to buy a new sled.  Where they go from here is anybody’s guess.  They seem to want to slowly start ramping it up but, are hesitant…and maybe rightfully so.

Now, they still make the toughest sled out there for those that want that.  If they didn’t, I wouldn’t be on one.  These are facts.

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5 minutes ago, Zambroski said:

Personally, I don’t give two fucks about anniversary models.  I’ve been unimpressed with what Textron has done so far BUT, what they have done is bail some water, got rid of old inventory and introduced a good and efficient way to buy a new sled.  Where they go from here is anybody’s guess.  They seem to want to slowly start ramping it up but, are hesitant…and maybe rightfully so.

Now, they still make the toughest sled out there for those that want that.  If they didn’t, I wouldn’t be on one.  These are facts.

pricing-sheet.jpg&v=1552985201198?v=2019

Clearly what they did for the 60th irritated some.  @Ziemann just as one comes to mind along with the people that went berzerk on the AI article.  

The original snowmageddon pricing was smart and a step in the right direction.  The RXC pricing then was a bargain compared to the 2022 6000 RR which doesn't have all the good RXC components and sticks you with estart. 

That said, Poo & Doo (Yamaha too) just keep increasing and for 2022 Cat followed suit. 

Getting back to an affordable, bare bones basic, light and fun ditchbanger, there isn't one.  There could be though... 

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12 minutes ago, Crnr2Crnr said:

pricing-sheet.jpg&v=1552985201198?v=2019

Clearly what they did for the 60th irritated some.  @Ziemann just as one comes to mind along with the people that went berzerk on the AI article.  

The original snowmageddon pricing was smart and a step in the right direction.  The RXC pricing then was a bargain compared to the 2022 6000 RR which doesn't have all the good RXC components and sticks you with estart. 

That said, Poo & Doo (Yamaha too) just keep increasing and for 2022 Cat followed suit. 

Getting back to an affordable, bare bones basic, light and fun ditchbanger, there isn't one.  There could be though... 

We need to stick in the 11-13k range.  But, like anything, it’s worth what you can get for it.  Adding a four year warranty to these fucking toys and stocking another $3k on the price is bad for the industry for multiple reasons.

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1 hour ago, Zambroski said:

We need to stick in the 11-13k range.  But, like anything, it’s worth what you can get for it.  Adding a four year warranty to these fucking toys and stocking another $3k on the price is bad for the industry for multiple reasons.

I could live without a fancy gauge, fit and finish, estart, led lights, mid-level shocks with nice decals, a ball sack warmer or a four year warranty if the price is right and if I'm not buying a soda can that will crumple if you hit a bump the wrong way.  If I want primo shocks, a heated shield plug or a GPS,  I can add that myself thank you.  

Clearly you and I could do a better job of running Cat into the ground than the lady from Atlanta with the snickerdoodleapso on her lap. 

:lol:

Oh well... Polaris and SkiDoo aren't selling these sleds either.

 

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41 minutes ago, Crnr2Crnr said:

I could live without a fancy gauge, fit and finish, estart, led lights, mid-level shocks with nice decals, a ball sack warmer or a four year warranty if the price is right and if I'm not buying a soda can that will crumple if you hit a bump the wrong way.  If I want primo shocks, a heated shield plug or a GPS,  I can add that myself thank you.  

Clearly you and I could do a better job of running Cat into the ground than the lady from Atlanta with the snickerdoodleapso on her lap. 

:lol:

Oh well... Polaris and SkiDoo aren't selling these sleds either.

 

Exactly.  We sound like more of the “traditionalist” type sledder.  I want strength, reliability and performance.  I need an rpm and temp gauge.  I don’t need or want a bunch of bullshit, I don’t need shiny beads, pretty lights or handlebars full of buttons and switches, much less running boards and skis clogged with “convenient” adjust knobs.  I don’t need a dealer to fix every fucking thing.  I could care less about a warranty on a fit machine.  The destination IS THE TRAIL/TRACK/SNOW.  I’ve got a heated, comfortable vehicle for destination trips.

Strip it down to almost race level the make all this available aftermarket…and dealers would be happy to sell and install it if they need to do so.

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6 minutes ago, Zambroski said:

Exactly.  We sound like more of the “traditionalist” type sledder.  I want strength, reliability and performance.  I need an rpm and temp gauge.  I don’t need or want a bunch of bullshit, I don’t need shiny beads, pretty lights or handlebars full of buttons and switches, much less running boards and skis clogged with “convenient” adjust knobs.  I don’t need a dealer to fix every fucking thing.  I could care less about a warranty on a fit machine.  The destination IS THE TRAIL/TRACK/SNOW.  I’ve got a heated, comfortable vehicle for destination trips.

Strip it down to almost race level the make all this available aftermarket…and dealers would be happy to sell and install it if they need to do so.

all that, with a simple 90-120hp pump fuel twin 

hell, skip the tunnel paint, matching seat cover, painted skid and graphics as well in place of stout bracing/hardware and bungee straps on the plastics.  if someone wants to upgrade the shocks (being a parts bin sled) they could.  no need to reinvent the wheel, use what you already have that you know won't break.

form and function or fit and finish?

at times to move forwards, you have to look backwards.  that's what I found appealing in the article, they're speaking of simple, fun, fast-enough, functional sleds that people could and did beat on for a reasonable price.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Zambroski said:

Exactly.  We sound like more of the “traditionalist” type sledder.  I want strength, reliability and performance.  I need an rpm and temp gauge.  I don’t need or want a bunch of bullshit, I don’t need shiny beads, pretty lights or handlebars full of buttons and switches, much less running boards and skis clogged with “convenient” adjust knobs.  I don’t need a dealer to fix every fucking thing.  I could care less about a warranty on a fit machine.  The destination IS THE TRAIL/TRACK/SNOW.  I’ve got a heated, comfortable vehicle for destination trips.

Strip it down to almost race level the make all this available aftermarket…and dealers would be happy to sell and install it if they need to do so.

The days of something like this being more affordable than what's in any current lineup are gone.  These type of products do exist, albeit not on snow, but if a manufacturer produces a low volume stripped down race ready consumer product it costs MORE not less unfortunately.

As for warranty it's just Poo and Yam playing that long warranty included game.  Cat and Doo only offer 3 months as standard and if you want more you pay additional for it.

 

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It sounds like what you guys are describing is more like the SnoPro 500. In my mind, that was the last of the entry level boy racers. Primitive yet functional. Brilliantly fun. If it would have had just a few more HP.....

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