Platinum Contributing Member Rigid1 Posted September 7, 2020 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted September 7, 2020 Just now, XCR1250 said: Dozens of articles on how well it works, easy to find them, but you believe everyone's lying..seriously if I thought it was junk do you believe I would use it in my 860 hp Hydro, my 314 hp $11,000 engine drag sled, my 225 HP Ranger boat? No I would buy whatever works best no matter the price..this stuff has been amazing, I have had gas which is 3 years old and it still smelled and burned like new.. Put water in it and let us know when the Enzymes eat it. It's fucking garbage and does absolutely nothing to prevent phase separation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XCR1250 Posted September 7, 2020 Share Posted September 7, 2020 6 minutes ago, Rigid1 said: Put water in it and let us know when the Enzymes eat it. It's fucking garbage and does absolutely nothing to prevent phase separation They have never claimed it gets rid of water in the fuel, they state it reduces water to "Sub-Micron sized droplets which can safely eliminated as the engine operates" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Rigid1 Posted September 7, 2020 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted September 7, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, XCR1250 said: They have never claimed it gets rid of water in the fuel, they state it reduces water to "Sub-Micron sized droplets which can safely eliminated as the engine operates" Put water in it, it doesn't do that at all..It's 100% petroleum based, here is their sds sheet off of their website.. Your a smart guy, Ask yourself this, do you know of any petroleum product that bonds with water?? Startron Enzyme Fuel Treatment – Small Engine Formula - Gas Safety Data Sheet According To Federal Register / Vol. 77, No. 58 / Monday, March 26, 2012 / Rules And Regulations And According To The Hazardous Products Regulation (February 11, 2015). Unknown Acute Toxicity (GHS-US/CA) No data available SECTION 3: COMPOSITION/INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS Mixture � Name Product Identifier % * GHS Ingredient Classification Petroleum distillates, hydrotreated light (CAS-No.) 64742-47-8 90 - 95 Asp. Tox. 1, H304 Petroleum distillates, hydrotreated light (CAS-No.) 64742-47-8 < 10 Flam. Liq. 3, H226 Skin Irrit. 2, H315 STOT SE 3, H336 Asp. Tox. 1, H304 Aquatic Acute 2, H401 Aquatic Chronic 2, H411 Edited September 7, 2020 by Rigid1 Bold % of petroleum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XCR1250 Posted September 7, 2020 Share Posted September 7, 2020 If it didn't worked as claimed do you really believe I would use it myself, it has worked as advertised..I sold Stabil, StarTron, Sea Foam and Heet..StarTron has been flawless to the point I always sold out year after year, guys would always come back asking for it as it worked good for them as a fuel storage additive. I don't care what anyone uses, I have always said use what works best for you and stick with it..I did not start using StarTron at first, I always used Stabil or Sea Foam, that is until I tried StarTron and was impressed with the results I had as well as many customers I had back when I ran my 2 shops. I would switch in a second if I thought is was bogus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zambroski Posted September 7, 2020 Share Posted September 7, 2020 I’ve been a husky consumer for a decade. Good stuff and I just purchased a second Husky rancher saw. No regrets but, I hear the same great stuff about Stijl. Echo is a “pro-Sumer” grade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Rigid1 Posted September 7, 2020 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted September 7, 2020 24 minutes ago, XCR1250 said: If it didn't worked as claimed do you really believe I would use it myself, it has worked as advertised..I sold Stabil, StarTron, Sea Foam and Heet..StarTron has been flawless to the point I always sold out year after year, guys would always come back asking for it as it worked good for them as a fuel storage additive. I don't care what anyone uses, I have always said use what works best for you and stick with it..I did not start using StarTron at first, I always used Stabil or Sea Foam, that is until I tried StarTron and was impressed with the results I had as well as many customers I had back when I ran my 2 shops. I would switch in a second if I thought is was bogus. Its over priced kerosene.. LOGIN FOR EPA & PARTNERS CONTACT US Hydrotreated light distillates (petroleum) Substance Details Internal Tracking Number: 341743 Substance Type: Chemical Substance Systematic Name: Distillates (petroleum), hydrotreated light CAS Number: 64742-47-8 EPA Registry Name: Hydrotreated light distillates (petroleum) Molecular Formula: Unspecified Definition: A complex combination of hydrocarbons obtained by treating a petroleum fraction with hydrogen in the presence of a catalyst. It consists of hydrocarbons having carbon numbers predominantly in the range of C9 through C16 and boiling in the range of approximately 150.degree.C to 290.degree.C (302.degree.F to 554.degree.F). The above is what startron has registered with the epa as on their own sds sheet it says this is 90-95 and the other 5-10% is another hydro treated light distillate.. Below is the chemical composition of Kerosene.. Shocker they are the fucking same!! The distribution of hydrocarbon length in the mixture making up kerosene ranges from a number of carbon atoms of C6 to C20, although typically kerosene predominantly contains C9 to C16 range hydrocarbons. [9] For fuck sake, it gets good reviews in magazines, you should do some research Yeah Don, keep putting kerosene in your motors, fact.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Rigid1 Posted September 7, 2020 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted September 7, 2020 2 minutes ago, Zambroski said: I’ve been a husky consumer for a decade. Good stuff and I just purchased a second Husky rancher saw. No regrets but, I hear the same great stuff about Stijl. Echo is a “pro-Sumer” grade. Who the fuck are you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XCR1250 Posted September 7, 2020 Share Posted September 7, 2020 StarTron Enzyme (Ethanol Fighter) Gas Additive...Anyone tried this? Jump to LatestFollow 1 - 8 of 8 Posts P pingzing2 Premium Member Joined Sep 29, 2011 188 Posts Discussion Starter • #1 • Feb 23, 2013 (Edited) I have some boating friends that love Star Tron. Here's a quote from the product's propaganda. "In a boat, motorcycle, outdoor power equipment or other gas-powered equipment that is being used regularly, Star Tron® can help prevent phase separation that occurs from daily condensation. By neutralizing the electrical charges between water molecules in a process called de-ionization, Star Tron® prevents the water molecules from forming huge clusters large enough to form drops and settle, taking the ethanol with it to the bottom of the fuel tank. The octane rating and the combustion characteristics of the gas are protected, and the suspended water molecules are harmlessly eliminated along with the fuel." Later in the material, it says the bonded water/ethanol in the bottom of the tank causes our bikes to run lean and reduces performance. I use Sta-bil Red in every tank because my Vol hates ethanol. VRA members helped me adjust my carb and the bike runs MUCH better now. However, some places I ride have questionable E10 and another place only has E85 (Or that's what they say it is). Thanks in advance for your input ! Because 2 wheels & a motor are a life long addiction ! 2003 Volusia 81,000 Miles 73,000 Engine 1 8,000 Engine 2 Vol Tours: 2004-->13 Key West 2003-6 Daytona Beach 2003 Mexico Beach, Tampa 2004 Amelia Island 2006 Blueridge Pkwy 2006,13 Chicago 2012 Dallas 2006 Nomad 1600 SaveShare Reply Capt Cruiser Administrator Joined Mar 19, 2006 16,367 Posts #2 • Feb 23, 2013 Stuff works phenomenal....use it in all my boats. Makes a huge difference. "Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave in a well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting...Holy Crap - What a ride!" 2005 Suzuki C50 - 2003 HD Heritage Softail - 2010 Victory Cross Country Reactions:pingzing2 SaveShare Reply Skrapiron Registered Joined Jul 18, 2008 19,735 Posts #3 • Feb 23, 2013 It is one of the few 'miracle cure' additives out there that I WILL use. It not only does a great job of stabilizing blended fuel, it also goes a long way towards cleaning carbon out of the combustion chamber. A lot of 'tight' valves are the result of too much carbon, caused by ethanol blended fuels... Current Bikes --> -1969 Indian MX125 -10-2009 to Present -2014 Honda CTX1300 - 05-2015 to Present Past Bikes -----> -1973 Yamaha RD350 -1991 Harley Sportster 883 XL -2000 Yamaha XV125 -2003 Piaggio Fly -2004 Suzuki LS650 - 04-2005 to 07-2008 -2005 Boulevard C50 - 07-2008 to 5-2012 -2012 Vulcan 900 - 05-2012 to 05-2015 -2008 Yamaha FZ6 - 11-2008 to 04-2017 -2006 Star Virago - 05-2011 to 06-2017 Reactions:pingzing2 SaveShare Reply Vol4Life Registered Joined Aug 23, 2012 397 Posts #4 • Feb 23, 2013 i just had a indie bike mechanic service my Vol and he said he adds it to all bikes brought in. He said it was one of the best additives on the market if you use blended gas. I advised I only used E-0 gas but he rattled off 2-3 other benefits. It was only $3 so no big deal. I guess my point is that he was REALLY high on this stuff and he has a good rep. TIFWIW 2001 Volusia (sold) 2009 V-Star 1300 (current) Reactions:pingzing2 SaveShare Reply P pingzing2 Premium Member Joined Sep 29, 2011 188 Posts Discussion Starter • #5 • Feb 23, 2013 Thanks everyone ! Looks like Walmart has it. Picking up a bottle today. Because 2 wheels & a motor are a life long addiction ! 2003 Volusia 81,000 Miles 73,000 Engine 1 8,000 Engine 2 Vol Tours: 2004-->13 Key West 2003-6 Daytona Beach 2003 Mexico Beach, Tampa 2004 Amelia Island 2006 Blueridge Pkwy 2006,13 Chicago 2012 Dallas 2006 Nomad 1600 SaveShare Reply C Cooteboy Registered Joined Jul 9, 2012 104 Posts #6 • Feb 23, 2013 It is really good stuff! I work at NAPA, and we sell a crap ton of it. Keep an eye out though when you buy the stuff - not every store is selling the same concentrate. I noticed that a hardware store across the street from us was selling it at 2/3 my price and was kinds embarrassed till I saw it treated 1/2 as much gasoline (same sized bottle too) The ones I sell treat 128 gallons. Reactions:pingzing2 SaveShare Reply Renfield54 Registered Joined Nov 9, 2009 951 Posts #7 • Feb 24, 2013 I've been using this for the entire time I've owned my bike. I add a bit to every fill-up........and Wally World by me has the 128 gal. treatment bottles.......LOVE the stuff!! I even started adding it to my mower/snowblower gas.......can't say enuff good about it!! 2001 Volusia 800 "Skunk" Reactions:pingzing2 SaveShare Reply Counter Steer Registered Joined Mar 24, 2006 2,352 Posts #8 • Feb 25, 2013 Many owners of vintage motorcycles switch to Startron as it reduces carbon buildup on the valves from stored gasoline, especially with E10. My vintage club has been using it for several year as the preferred additive. Stabil is okay, as an emulsifier it traps water into like bucky balls, Startron interacts with the water to keep them from forming balls so that it passes through the combustion chamber as vapor, thereby not as much residue on the valves. The best thing you can do when storing a gasoline powered device is fill the tank before you store it. A full tank has reduced surface area and will not absorb as much water. A partially filled tank invites water. ie rust. If you are storing a bike for over 3 weeks, fill the tank and add Startron. I am a believer that it is a superior product to emulsifiers like Stabil, but that with a full tank, both probably work okay. Since I have vintage bikes, I have chosen to use the slightly more expensive Startron. Here are my notes from when I was researching it vs Stabil. Star Tron contains a blend of enzymes vs emulsifiers. The enzymes allow more oxygen to attach to fuel hydrocarbons so that they burn more completely. This translates into more power and better fuel economy. Engines start more easily and run more smoothly. Carbon deposits (unburnt fuel) are prevented. Harmful emissions (unburnt fuel) are significantly reduced. The enzymes disperse moisture so that it can be removed while the engine operates; by breaking water molecules into tiny sub-micron-sized particles, they can be vaporized during the combustion process. You cannot ‘burn’ water nor can you magically make it disappear. Alcohol-based emulsifiers make this claim, but they’re false. Emulsified fuel leads to carbon deposits that harm performance. The enzymes also disperse debris such as varnish and gum into tiny particulates so that they too can be eliminated as the engine operates. They will remove existing carbon deposits. Star Tron will stabilize fuel chemistry for up to 2 years, which is critical with ethanol-blended fuel that can begin to degrade in as little as 2 weeks. Ethanol and gasoline do not & cannot chemically bond. Ethanol and water do chemically bond. If more than .5% water (by volume) enters the fuel, the water/ethanol mixture weighs more than the gas. So it drops to the bottom of the fuel tank, forming a distinct layer. This is phase separation. You can help prevent it by keeping the water content below .5%. Star Tron will improve the octane of old, substandard or off-spec fuel. It can be used in any 2-cycle or 4-cycle engine fueled by gasoline. There is also a diesel fuel formula. For best results, it is to be used year-round, added at every fillup. 1. Naphtha is not an active ingredient in StarTron, it's the carrier to spread the active ingredients throughout the fuel. Comparing StarTron to any other fuel additive because they both contain mostly naphtha is like comparing beer to coffee because they both contain mostly water. 2. There a lot of problems with E10 that StarTron fixes. I will just address the most notable ones here. First, and of most concern is water control. Enzymes affect electrical surface charges of various target molecules. These are the bonds that hold water molecules together, the bonds that hold hydrocarbons together, and affect how the two coexist. Interfacial surface tension between water and hydrocarbons is the main concern and the culprit in water-related phase separation. Ethanol does not like gasoline, and it's not electrically bonded to it. It's just close enough to hydrocarbon's physical characteristics to stay dispersed. That means ethanol molecules are free-floating in the fuel. Gas is electrically neutral. On the other hand, ethanol and water are charged (the term is "polar") and they love each other. That's why ethanol will suck water right out of the air. The water bonds permanently to the ethanol, and being heavier than gas, it settles, taking the octane from the ethanol with it. When it comes to water in the fuel, it is "how much and how large" that determines potential harm. Water does not exist in its textbook H2O formula. It’s several to even hundreds of molecules form "clusters". StarTron reduces the water molecule's cluster size by accelerating the rate of proton exchange between water molecules, which lowers the cluster's surface tension and its repulsion from hydrocarbons. (Water and oil don't mix due to the electrical charge of water). Emulsifiers or detergents also work by altering the surface charge of their target molecules. The difference is the detergent (Stabil and other similar chemicals) bond water to the emulsifier, which typically forms a “micelle", which is a where the water rolls into a large drop and is surrounded by hundreds of detergent molecules that also bond to the hydrocarbon. Think about dish soap. The detergent releases the electrical charge of the food (protein) molecules from the dish and then because it wants to crawl away from the charged water, it rolls into a ball, and the detergent holds the ball in the water to be flushed away. That is an "oil-in-water" emulsion, also known as a micelle. It works the other way as well, where the water is repulsed and rolls up into a ball, and the emulsifier holds the water in suspension in the oil, known as the "Water-in -Oil" emulsion, or a "reverse micelle". The reaction is over at that point, and the result is a much larger combination molecule. Water, when too high in quantity, or too large in molecular size, displaces fuel as a boundary layer lubricant between metal surfaces, which causes wear on pumps and close tolerance fuel system components. StarTron's impact on the water molecule is to reduce the cluster size to a size known as a colloid. That's so small it will stay in suspension without an emulsifier's chemical bond, at least for a while. This is why, during operation where there is some fuel movement, StarTron will act just like a detergent and move microscopic drops of water up into the fuel column where it is harmlessly burned off. However, the molecule size is not large enough to reduce lubricity, and it's really a very small amount of water being suspended. Once shut down, after a few minutes, the water will fall out of suspension, as it’s not electrically bound to the gas. Here's another huge difference between enzymes and detergents. Enzymes never become part of the reaction. They are "catalysts". They initiate or accelerate chemical reactions, but release themselves from the reaction and start a new one, millions of times per second. Its takes only a few molecules to do what untold numbers of detergent molecules do. That's why Startron is over 99% carrier solvent. Enzymes can also reduce surface tension in hydrocarbons, which allows finer atomization which allows faster reactions with oxygen, i.e. better combustion. That's what really puts StarTron head and shoulders over detergents. It's not just cleaning the fuel system, it's also catalyzing combustion. That prevents carbon deposits, too. Storage stability is greatly improved and has been well documented in independent lab tests. However, the function has been extremely difficult to pinpoint the exact biochemical pathway. Best theory right now is that by reducing the electrical oxidation potential the absorption of atmospheric oxygen (polymerization) is retarded. Unlike with conventional chemical stabilizers, where they believe it works to stabilize fuel by terminating end chain radicals by donating a nitrogen atom, the enzymatic process is not fully understood here. There is no nitrogen atom, so StarTron does not add any "outside" atom or molecule to the radical hydrocarbon. It's done by altering the hydrocarbon's tendency to like oxygen. Startron also reduces existent gums, which may be involved in precipitation of solids in stored gas. This is also notable in reducing combustion chamber deposits and gums on fuel system parts. 3. Please don't be offended, but I don't know what research led you to believe that enzymes can't be suspended in petroleum, although it sounds very familiar to the laments of a conventional chemical based competitor that has made the same statement. The fact is, the first use of biocatalysts (enzymes) in fuel dates back to 1959, by Phillips Petroleum. There are many patents and literally, I have read at least 200 scientific (out of thousands) research papers on enzymes in petroleum for various applications. The entire soil reclamation industry (cleaning up fuel spills at gas stations) is built on enzymes suspended in petroleum carriers, and I personally was selling these in the early 1980's. Also, diesel fuel is famous for growing fungi and mold, which is why all the additive companies sell fuel biocides. The organisms secrete enzymes to break down the petroleum for food. Fact is, enzymes are easily suspended in petroleum and nature has been doing it for hundreds of millions of years. Its enzymes that broke down organic matter to form petroleum in the first place. 4. You are adding a few drops of Naphtha per gallon. It won't affect the flash point either way. 5. The restoration of phase-separated fuel is a tough subject to address. To most people it's when water and some alcohol drop to the bottom. To the fuel pros, it's when there is enough water to trigger an instantaneous and near complete fallout of ALL the alcohol, ruining the fuel completely. Given that water will separate from fuel, even e-10, you can have water pooled on the bottom with some ethanol, but the fuel can still have ethanol in it as well. And this is readily restored by adding Startron and operating the vehicle. However, if there is a large amount of water and it's been really well shaken through the entire fuel tank, and all the alcohol has tripped out, then no, you can't put that water and alcohol back into suspension just by adding Startron. However, the engine companies say "dump" the fuel. That's not practical, and generally not necessary. Add fresh gasoline along with Startron. That will soak up .5% water by volume of the new fuel, and the Startron will restore the combustion characteristics of the old fuel. It generally takes a couple of fill ups to get all the water out, and requires some agitation. We have been successful at this for several years because most fuel is not completely ruined. If total phase separation occurred often, we would have every vehicle and vessel in the southeast dead (in the water) from pumping water and ethanol into their engines. It's a legitimate problem, but not that common in its extreme. 6. Initial fuel quality plays a huge role in how long treated fuel will last. Refinery samples we have tested from California were found to have two to three times the stability of fuel made in the Gulf. The oxidation tests with Startron show much larger percentages of increases in stability with Gulf fuel, which is to be expected. If the fuel is initially so stable that it doesn't oxidize on its own, an anti-oxidant isn't of much use. So what you start with determines how long it can go after treatment. With straight gas, you could get two years out of stored fuel. However, E-10 is not as stable. We have seen excellent numbers in the lab, ranging from 60% increases to as high as 300%. However, there is a caveat. The ASTM test for gas oxidation is NOT approved for Ethanol fuels, so the numbers may not be as precise as they would be in conventional gas. We are satisfied with one year of storage in a properly sealed fuel system, when treating dry, fresh gas. Always store the tank full to reduce oxygen contact space, and if you know it's going to be a winter-long storage, use a double dose of StarTron in E-10 for extra security. Startron has reduced rust caused by water in fuel in lab tests, and has a great history in the marine industry preventing corrosion. Ethanol, when sitting with water for long periods of time can attack metals, so we improve that aspect of the fuel. Startron reduces existent gums in the gas, which reduces gum deposit formation, another problem with E10. StarTron improves combustion, which restores lost fuel economy due to E10's 3% lower BTU value. StarTron is effective in helping fight the cold-start problem caused by vaporization issues of ethanol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fireball 440 Posted September 7, 2020 Author Share Posted September 7, 2020 I usually just funnel in a few oz. of sugar for storage. It's worked great for me for years. Due to the civil unrest I've decided to use brown sugar this year, petroleum free of course. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Rigid1 Posted September 7, 2020 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted September 7, 2020 Just now, XCR1250 said: StarTron Enzyme (Ethanol Fighter) Gas Additive...Anyone tried this? Jump to LatestFollow 1 - 8 of 8 Posts P pingzing2 Premium Member Joined Sep 29, 2011 188 Posts Discussion Starter • #1 • Feb 23, 2013 (Edited) I have some boating friends that love Star Tron. Here's a quote from the product's propaganda. "In a boat, motorcycle, outdoor power equipment or other gas-powered equipment that is being used regularly, Star Tron® can help prevent phase separation that occurs from daily condensation. By neutralizing the electrical charges between water molecules in a process called de-ionization, Star Tron® prevents the water molecules from forming huge clusters large enough to form drops and settle, taking the ethanol with it to the bottom of the fuel tank. The octane rating and the combustion characteristics of the gas are protected, and the suspended water molecules are harmlessly eliminated along with the fuel." Later in the material, it says the bonded water/ethanol in the bottom of the tank causes our bikes to run lean and reduces performance. I use Sta-bil Red in every tank because my Vol hates ethanol. VRA members helped me adjust my carb and the bike runs MUCH better now. However, some places I ride have questionable E10 and another place only has E85 (Or that's what they say it is). Thanks in advance for your input ! Because 2 wheels & a motor are a life long addiction ! 2003 Volusia 81,000 Miles 73,000 Engine 1 8,000 Engine 2 Vol Tours: 2004-->13 Key West 2003-6 Daytona Beach 2003 Mexico Beach, Tampa 2004 Amelia Island 2006 Blueridge Pkwy 2006,13 Chicago 2012 Dallas 2006 Nomad 1600 SaveShare Reply Capt Cruiser Administrator Joined Mar 19, 2006 16,367 Posts #2 • Feb 23, 2013 Stuff works phenomenal....use it in all my boats. Makes a huge difference. "Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave in a well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting...Holy Crap - What a ride!" 2005 Suzuki C50 - 2003 HD Heritage Softail - 2010 Victory Cross Country Reactions:pingzing2 SaveShare Reply Skrapiron Registered Joined Jul 18, 2008 19,735 Posts #3 • Feb 23, 2013 It is one of the few 'miracle cure' additives out there that I WILL use. It not only does a great job of stabilizing blended fuel, it also goes a long way towards cleaning carbon out of the combustion chamber. A lot of 'tight' valves are the result of too much carbon, caused by ethanol blended fuels... Current Bikes --> -1969 Indian MX125 -10-2009 to Present -2014 Honda CTX1300 - 05-2015 to Present Past Bikes -----> -1973 Yamaha RD350 -1991 Harley Sportster 883 XL -2000 Yamaha XV125 -2003 Piaggio Fly -2004 Suzuki LS650 - 04-2005 to 07-2008 -2005 Boulevard C50 - 07-2008 to 5-2012 -2012 Vulcan 900 - 05-2012 to 05-2015 -2008 Yamaha FZ6 - 11-2008 to 04-2017 -2006 Star Virago - 05-2011 to 06-2017 Reactions:pingzing2 SaveShare Reply Vol4Life Registered Joined Aug 23, 2012 397 Posts #4 • Feb 23, 2013 i just had a indie bike mechanic service my Vol and he said he adds it to all bikes brought in. He said it was one of the best additives on the market if you use blended gas. I advised I only used E-0 gas but he rattled off 2-3 other benefits. It was only $3 so no big deal. I guess my point is that he was REALLY high on this stuff and he has a good rep. TIFWIW 2001 Volusia (sold) 2009 V-Star 1300 (current) Reactions:pingzing2 SaveShare Reply P pingzing2 Premium Member Joined Sep 29, 2011 188 Posts Discussion Starter • #5 • Feb 23, 2013 Thanks everyone ! Looks like Walmart has it. Picking up a bottle today. Because 2 wheels & a motor are a life long addiction ! 2003 Volusia 81,000 Miles 73,000 Engine 1 8,000 Engine 2 Vol Tours: 2004-->13 Key West 2003-6 Daytona Beach 2003 Mexico Beach, Tampa 2004 Amelia Island 2006 Blueridge Pkwy 2006,13 Chicago 2012 Dallas 2006 Nomad 1600 SaveShare Reply C Cooteboy Registered Joined Jul 9, 2012 104 Posts #6 • Feb 23, 2013 It is really good stuff! I work at NAPA, and we sell a crap ton of it. Keep an eye out though when you buy the stuff - not every store is selling the same concentrate. I noticed that a hardware store across the street from us was selling it at 2/3 my price and was kinds embarrassed till I saw it treated 1/2 as much gasoline (same sized bottle too) The ones I sell treat 128 gallons. Reactions:pingzing2 SaveShare Reply Renfield54 Registered Joined Nov 9, 2009 951 Posts #7 • Feb 24, 2013 I've been using this for the entire time I've owned my bike. I add a bit to every fill-up........and Wally World by me has the 128 gal. treatment bottles.......LOVE the stuff!! I even started adding it to my mower/snowblower gas.......can't say enuff good about it!! 2001 Volusia 800 "Skunk" Reactions:pingzing2 SaveShare Reply Counter Steer Registered Joined Mar 24, 2006 2,352 Posts #8 • Feb 25, 2013 Many owners of vintage motorcycles switch to Startron as it reduces carbon buildup on the valves from stored gasoline, especially with E10. My vintage club has been using it for several year as the preferred additive. Stabil is okay, as an emulsifier it traps water into like bucky balls, Startron interacts with the water to keep them from forming balls so that it passes through the combustion chamber as vapor, thereby not as much residue on the valves. The best thing you can do when storing a gasoline powered device is fill the tank before you store it. A full tank has reduced surface area and will not absorb as much water. A partially filled tank invites water. ie rust. If you are storing a bike for over 3 weeks, fill the tank and add Startron. I am a believer that it is a superior product to emulsifiers like Stabil, but that with a full tank, both probably work okay. Since I have vintage bikes, I have chosen to use the slightly more expensive Startron. Here are my notes from when I was researching it vs Stabil. Star Tron contains a blend of enzymes vs emulsifiers. The enzymes allow more oxygen to attach to fuel hydrocarbons so that they burn more completely. This translates into more power and better fuel economy. Engines start more easily and run more smoothly. Carbon deposits (unburnt fuel) are prevented. Harmful emissions (unburnt fuel) are significantly reduced. The enzymes disperse moisture so that it can be removed while the engine operates; by breaking water molecules into tiny sub-micron-sized particles, they can be vaporized during the combustion process. You cannot ‘burn’ water nor can you magically make it disappear. Alcohol-based emulsifiers make this claim, but they’re false. Emulsified fuel leads to carbon deposits that harm performance. The enzymes also disperse debris such as varnish and gum into tiny particulates so that they too can be eliminated as the engine operates. They will remove existing carbon deposits. Star Tron will stabilize fuel chemistry for up to 2 years, which is critical with ethanol-blended fuel that can begin to degrade in as little as 2 weeks. Ethanol and gasoline do not & cannot chemically bond. Ethanol and water do chemically bond. If more than .5% water (by volume) enters the fuel, the water/ethanol mixture weighs more than the gas. So it drops to the bottom of the fuel tank, forming a distinct layer. This is phase separation. You can help prevent it by keeping the water content below .5%. Star Tron will improve the octane of old, substandard or off-spec fuel. It can be used in any 2-cycle or 4-cycle engine fueled by gasoline. There is also a diesel fuel formula. For best results, it is to be used year-round, added at every fillup. 1. Naphtha is not an active ingredient in StarTron, it's the carrier to spread the active ingredients throughout the fuel. Comparing StarTron to any other fuel additive because they both contain mostly naphtha is like comparing beer to coffee because they both contain mostly water. 2. There a lot of problems with E10 that StarTron fixes. I will just address the most notable ones here. First, and of most concern is water control. Enzymes affect electrical surface charges of various target molecules. These are the bonds that hold water molecules together, the bonds that hold hydrocarbons together, and affect how the two coexist. Interfacial surface tension between water and hydrocarbons is the main concern and the culprit in water-related phase separation. Ethanol does not like gasoline, and it's not electrically bonded to it. It's just close enough to hydrocarbon's physical characteristics to stay dispersed. That means ethanol molecules are free-floating in the fuel. Gas is electrically neutral. On the other hand, ethanol and water are charged (the term is "polar") and they love each other. That's why ethanol will suck water right out of the air. The water bonds permanently to the ethanol, and being heavier than gas, it settles, taking the octane from the ethanol with it. When it comes to water in the fuel, it is "how much and how large" that determines potential harm. Water does not exist in its textbook H2O formula. It’s several to even hundreds of molecules form "clusters". StarTron reduces the water molecule's cluster size by accelerating the rate of proton exchange between water molecules, which lowers the cluster's surface tension and its repulsion from hydrocarbons. (Water and oil don't mix due to the electrical charge of water). Emulsifiers or detergents also work by altering the surface charge of their target molecules. The difference is the detergent (Stabil and other similar chemicals) bond water to the emulsifier, which typically forms a “micelle", which is a where the water rolls into a large drop and is surrounded by hundreds of detergent molecules that also bond to the hydrocarbon. Think about dish soap. The detergent releases the electrical charge of the food (protein) molecules from the dish and then because it wants to crawl away from the charged water, it rolls into a ball, and the detergent holds the ball in the water to be flushed away. That is an "oil-in-water" emulsion, also known as a micelle. It works the other way as well, where the water is repulsed and rolls up into a ball, and the emulsifier holds the water in suspension in the oil, known as the "Water-in -Oil" emulsion, or a "reverse micelle". The reaction is over at that point, and the result is a much larger combination molecule. Water, when too high in quantity, or too large in molecular size, displaces fuel as a boundary layer lubricant between metal surfaces, which causes wear on pumps and close tolerance fuel system components. StarTron's impact on the water molecule is to reduce the cluster size to a size known as a colloid. That's so small it will stay in suspension without an emulsifier's chemical bond, at least for a while. This is why, during operation where there is some fuel movement, StarTron will act just like a detergent and move microscopic drops of water up into the fuel column where it is harmlessly burned off. However, the molecule size is not large enough to reduce lubricity, and it's really a very small amount of water being suspended. Once shut down, after a few minutes, the water will fall out of suspension, as it’s not electrically bound to the gas. Here's another huge difference between enzymes and detergents. Enzymes never become part of the reaction. They are "catalysts". They initiate or accelerate chemical reactions, but release themselves from the reaction and start a new one, millions of times per second. Its takes only a few molecules to do what untold numbers of detergent molecules do. That's why Startron is over 99% carrier solvent. Enzymes can also reduce surface tension in hydrocarbons, which allows finer atomization which allows faster reactions with oxygen, i.e. better combustion. That's what really puts StarTron head and shoulders over detergents. It's not just cleaning the fuel system, it's also catalyzing combustion. That prevents carbon deposits, too. Storage stability is greatly improved and has been well documented in independent lab tests. However, the function has been extremely difficult to pinpoint the exact biochemical pathway. Best theory right now is that by reducing the electrical oxidation potential the absorption of atmospheric oxygen (polymerization) is retarded. Unlike with conventional chemical stabilizers, where they believe it works to stabilize fuel by terminating end chain radicals by donating a nitrogen atom, the enzymatic process is not fully understood here. There is no nitrogen atom, so StarTron does not add any "outside" atom or molecule to the radical hydrocarbon. It's done by altering the hydrocarbon's tendency to like oxygen. Startron also reduces existent gums, which may be involved in precipitation of solids in stored gas. This is also notable in reducing combustion chamber deposits and gums on fuel system parts. 3. Please don't be offended, but I don't know what research led you to believe that enzymes can't be suspended in petroleum, although it sounds very familiar to the laments of a conventional chemical based competitor that has made the same statement. The fact is, the first use of biocatalysts (enzymes) in fuel dates back to 1959, by Phillips Petroleum. There are many patents and literally, I have read at least 200 scientific (out of thousands) research papers on enzymes in petroleum for various applications. The entire soil reclamation industry (cleaning up fuel spills at gas stations) is built on enzymes suspended in petroleum carriers, and I personally was selling these in the early 1980's. Also, diesel fuel is famous for growing fungi and mold, which is why all the additive companies sell fuel biocides. The organisms secrete enzymes to break down the petroleum for food. Fact is, enzymes are easily suspended in petroleum and nature has been doing it for hundreds of millions of years. Its enzymes that broke down organic matter to form petroleum in the first place. 4. You are adding a few drops of Naphtha per gallon. It won't affect the flash point either way. 5. The restoration of phase-separated fuel is a tough subject to address. To most people it's when water and some alcohol drop to the bottom. To the fuel pros, it's when there is enough water to trigger an instantaneous and near complete fallout of ALL the alcohol, ruining the fuel completely. Given that water will separate from fuel, even e-10, you can have water pooled on the bottom with some ethanol, but the fuel can still have ethanol in it as well. And this is readily restored by adding Startron and operating the vehicle. However, if there is a large amount of water and it's been really well shaken through the entire fuel tank, and all the alcohol has tripped out, then no, you can't put that water and alcohol back into suspension just by adding Startron. However, the engine companies say "dump" the fuel. That's not practical, and generally not necessary. Add fresh gasoline along with Startron. That will soak up .5% water by volume of the new fuel, and the Startron will restore the combustion characteristics of the old fuel. It generally takes a couple of fill ups to get all the water out, and requires some agitation. We have been successful at this for several years because most fuel is not completely ruined. If total phase separation occurred often, we would have every vehicle and vessel in the southeast dead (in the water) from pumping water and ethanol into their engines. It's a legitimate problem, but not that common in its extreme. 6. Initial fuel quality plays a huge role in how long treated fuel will last. Refinery samples we have tested from California were found to have two to three times the stability of fuel made in the Gulf. The oxidation tests with Startron show much larger percentages of increases in stability with Gulf fuel, which is to be expected. If the fuel is initially so stable that it doesn't oxidize on its own, an anti-oxidant isn't of much use. So what you start with determines how long it can go after treatment. With straight gas, you could get two years out of stored fuel. However, E-10 is not as stable. We have seen excellent numbers in the lab, ranging from 60% increases to as high as 300%. However, there is a caveat. The ASTM test for gas oxidation is NOT approved for Ethanol fuels, so the numbers may not be as precise as they would be in conventional gas. We are satisfied with one year of storage in a properly sealed fuel system, when treating dry, fresh gas. Always store the tank full to reduce oxygen contact space, and if you know it's going to be a winter-long storage, use a double dose of StarTron in E-10 for extra security. Startron has reduced rust caused by water in fuel in lab tests, and has a great history in the marine industry preventing corrosion. Ethanol, when sitting with water for long periods of time can attack metals, so we improve that aspect of the fuel. Startron reduces existent gums in the gas, which reduces gum deposit formation, another problem with E10. StarTron improves combustion, which restores lost fuel economy due to E10's 3% lower BTU value. StarTron is effective in helping fight the cold-start problem caused by vaporization issues of ethanol. It's kerosene,see above, posted the chemical composition of both listed with the epa.. Cooteboys opinion really doesn't hold much water with me, but the registered chemical composition they have with the EPA does..I mean Don, it's right on Startrons website, they have to tell you by law..FFS..just go to the gas station and get a gallon of kero for $4 and dump some in all your engines, save some money too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zambroski Posted September 7, 2020 Share Posted September 7, 2020 13 minutes ago, Rigid1 said: Who the fuck are you? Just another nobody that can type shit. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 7, 2020 Share Posted September 7, 2020 After reading all this, I'm convinced my gas might have deteriorated over the summer, 'cause they were all running great earlier this year. I have a couple of ECHO products, both run great. My ECHO brush-cutter is a 2007, and has been used very hard. The engines are strong. I would not hesitate to buy another one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XCR1250 Posted September 7, 2020 Share Posted September 7, 2020 2 minutes ago, Rigid1 said: It's kerosene,see above, posted the chemical composition of both listed with the epa.. Cooteboys opinion really doesn't hold much water with me, but the registered chemical composition they have with the EPA does..I mean Don, it's right on Startrons website, they have to tell you by law..FFS..just go to the gas station and get a gallon of kero for $4 and dump some in all your engines, save some money too... Again, it works perfect for me and countless others or we all would use something else.. This explains below pretty well on how it works.. Here are my notes from when I was researching it vs Stabil. Star Tron contains a blend of enzymes vs emulsifiers. The enzymes allow more oxygen to attach to fuel hydrocarbons so that they burn more completely. This translates into more power and better fuel economy. Engines start more easily and run more smoothly. Carbon deposits (unburnt fuel) are prevented. Harmful emissions (unburnt fuel) are significantly reduced. The enzymes disperse moisture so that it can be removed while the engine operates; by breaking water molecules into tiny sub-micron-sized particles, they can be vaporized during the combustion process. You cannot ‘burn’ water nor can you magically make it disappear. Alcohol-based emulsifiers make this claim, but they’re false. Emulsified fuel leads to carbon deposits that harm performance. The enzymes also disperse debris such as varnish and gum into tiny particulates so that they too can be eliminated as the engine operates. They will remove existing carbon deposits. Star Tron will stabilize fuel chemistry for up to 2 years, which is critical with ethanol-blended fuel that can begin to degrade in as little as 2 weeks. Ethanol and gasoline do not & cannot chemically bond. Ethanol and water do chemically bond. If more than .5% water (by volume) enters the fuel, the water/ethanol mixture weighs more than the gas. So it drops to the bottom of the fuel tank, forming a distinct layer. This is phase separation. You can help prevent it by keeping the water content below .5%. Star Tron will improve the octane of old, substandard or off-spec fuel. It can be used in any 2-cycle or 4-cycle engine fueled by gasoline. There is also a diesel fuel formula. For best results, it is to be used year-round, added at every fillup. 1. Naphtha is not an active ingredient in StarTron, it's the carrier to spread the active ingredients throughout the fuel. Comparing StarTron to any other fuel additive because they both contain mostly naphtha is like comparing beer to coffee because they both contain mostly water. 2. There a lot of problems with E10 that StarTron fixes. I will just address the most notable ones here. First, and of most concern is water control. Enzymes affect electrical surface charges of various target molecules. These are the bonds that hold water molecules together, the bonds that hold hydrocarbons together, and affect how the two coexist. Interfacial surface tension between water and hydrocarbons is the main concern and the culprit in water-related phase separation. Ethanol does not like gasoline, and it's not electrically bonded to it. It's just close enough to hydrocarbon's physical characteristics to stay dispersed. That means ethanol molecules are free-floating in the fuel. Gas is electrically neutral. On the other hand, ethanol and water are charged (the term is "polar") and they love each other. That's why ethanol will suck water right out of the air. The water bonds permanently to the ethanol, and being heavier than gas, it settles, taking the octane from the ethanol with it. When it comes to water in the fuel, it is "how much and how large" that determines potential harm. Water does not exist in its textbook H2O formula. It’s several to even hundreds of molecules form "clusters". StarTron reduces the water molecule's cluster size by accelerating the rate of proton exchange between water molecules, which lowers the cluster's surface tension and its repulsion from hydrocarbons. (Water and oil don't mix due to the electrical charge of water). Emulsifiers or detergents also work by altering the surface charge of their target molecules. The difference is the detergent (Stabil and other similar chemicals) bond water to the emulsifier, which typically forms a “micelle", which is a where the water rolls into a large drop and is surrounded by hundreds of detergent molecules that also bond to the hydrocarbon. Think about dish soap. The detergent releases the electrical charge of the food (protein) molecules from the dish and then because it wants to crawl away from the charged water, it rolls into a ball, and the detergent holds the ball in the water to be flushed away. That is an "oil-in-water" emulsion, also known as a micelle. It works the other way as well, where the water is repulsed and rolls up into a ball, and the emulsifier holds the water in suspension in the oil, known as the "Water-in -Oil" emulsion, or a "reverse micelle". The reaction is over at that point, and the result is a much larger combination molecule. Water, when too high in quantity, or too large in molecular size, displaces fuel as a boundary layer lubricant between metal surfaces, which causes wear on pumps and close tolerance fuel system components. StarTron's impact on the water molecule is to reduce the cluster size to a size known as a colloid. That's so small it will stay in suspension without an emulsifier's chemical bond, at least for a while. This is why, during operation where there is some fuel movement, StarTron will act just like a detergent and move microscopic drops of water up into the fuel column where it is harmlessly burned off. However, the molecule size is not large enough to reduce lubricity, and it's really a very small amount of water being suspended. Once shut down, after a few minutes, the water will fall out of suspension, as it’s not electrically bound to the gas. Here's another huge difference between enzymes and detergents. Enzymes never become part of the reaction. They are "catalysts". They initiate or accelerate chemical reactions, but release themselves from the reaction and start a new one, millions of times per second. Its takes only a few molecules to do what untold numbers of detergent molecules do. That's why Startron is over 99% carrier solvent. Enzymes can also reduce surface tension in hydrocarbons, which allows finer atomization which allows faster reactions with oxygen, i.e. better combustion. That's what really puts StarTron head and shoulders over detergents. It's not just cleaning the fuel system, it's also catalyzing combustion. That prevents carbon deposits, too. Storage stability is greatly improved and has been well documented in independent lab tests. However, the function has been extremely difficult to pinpoint the exact biochemical pathway. Best theory right now is that by reducing the electrical oxidation potential the absorption of atmospheric oxygen (polymerization) is retarded. Unlike with conventional chemical stabilizers, where they believe it works to stabilize fuel by terminating end chain radicals by donating a nitrogen atom, the enzymatic process is not fully understood here. There is no nitrogen atom, so StarTron does not add any "outside" atom or molecule to the radical hydrocarbon. It's done by altering the hydrocarbon's tendency to like oxygen. Startron also reduces existent gums, which may be involved in precipitation of solids in stored gas. This is also notable in reducing combustion chamber deposits and gums on fuel system parts. 3. Please don't be offended, but I don't know what research led you to believe that enzymes can't be suspended in petroleum, although it sounds very familiar to the laments of a conventional chemical based competitor that has made the same statement. The fact is, the first use of biocatalysts (enzymes) in fuel dates back to 1959, by Phillips Petroleum. There are many patents and literally, I have read at least 200 scientific (out of thousands) research papers on enzymes in petroleum for various applications. The entire soil reclamation industry (cleaning up fuel spills at gas stations) is built on enzymes suspended in petroleum carriers, and I personally was selling these in the early 1980's. Also, diesel fuel is famous for growing fungi and mold, which is why all the additive companies sell fuel biocides. The organisms secrete enzymes to break down the petroleum for food. Fact is, enzymes are easily suspended in petroleum and nature has been doing it for hundreds of millions of years. Its enzymes that broke down organic matter to form petroleum in the first place. 4. You are adding a few drops of Naphtha per gallon. It won't affect the flash point either way. 5. The restoration of phase-separated fuel is a tough subject to address. To most people it's when water and some alcohol drop to the bottom. To the fuel pros, it's when there is enough water to trigger an instantaneous and near complete fallout of ALL the alcohol, ruining the fuel completely. Given that water will separate from fuel, even e-10, you can have water pooled on the bottom with some ethanol, but the fuel can still have ethanol in it as well. And this is readily restored by adding Startron and operating the vehicle. However, if there is a large amount of water and it's been really well shaken through the entire fuel tank, and all the alcohol has tripped out, then no, you can't put that water and alcohol back into suspension just by adding Startron. However, the engine companies say "dump" the fuel. That's not practical, and generally not necessary. Add fresh gasoline along with Startron. That will soak up .5% water by volume of the new fuel, and the Startron will restore the combustion characteristics of the old fuel. It generally takes a couple of fill ups to get all the water out, and requires some agitation. We have been successful at this for several years because most fuel is not completely ruined. If total phase separation occurred often, we would have every vehicle and vessel in the southeast dead (in the water) from pumping water and ethanol into their engines. It's a legitimate problem, but not that common in its extreme. 6. Initial fuel quality plays a huge role in how long treated fuel will last. Refinery samples we have tested from California were found to have two to three times the stability of fuel made in the Gulf. The oxidation tests with Startron show much larger percentages of increases in stability with Gulf fuel, which is to be expected. If the fuel is initially so stable that it doesn't oxidize on its own, an anti-oxidant isn't of much use. So what you start with determines how long it can go after treatment. With straight gas, you could get two years out of stored fuel. However, E-10 is not as stable. We have seen excellent numbers in the lab, ranging from 60% increases to as high as 300%. However, there is a caveat. The ASTM test for gas oxidation is NOT approved for Ethanol fuels, so the numbers may not be as precise as they would be in conventional gas. We are satisfied with one year of storage in a properly sealed fuel system, when treating dry, fresh gas. Always store the tank full to reduce oxygen contact space, and if you know it's going to be a winter-long storage, use a double dose of StarTron in E-10 for extra security. Startron has reduced rust caused by water in fuel in lab tests, and has a great history in the marine industry preventing corrosion. Ethanol, when sitting with water for long periods of time can attack metals, so we improve that aspect of the fuel. Startron reduces existent gums in the gas, which reduces gum deposit formation, another problem with E10. StarTron improves combustion, which restores lost fuel economy due to E10's 3% lower BTU value. StarTron is effective in helping fight the cold-start problem caused by vaporization issues of ethanol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Member Stephen Hawking Posted September 7, 2020 Gold Member Share Posted September 7, 2020 For the amount I use in a year I just buy a gallon of premix at the beginning of spring, much easier and I don't have to drain the equipment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 7, 2020 Share Posted September 7, 2020 On most of the major chainsaw manufacturers..................they have THREE grades: Consumer...........least expensive, you might find these at a big box store Occasional use.................better grade, good for most users Professional Grade..............best saws, most expensive, most powerful, for pros or hard long users. PRICE IS THE BEST GUIDE........more expensive, better saw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Rigid1 Posted September 7, 2020 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted September 7, 2020 11 minutes ago, XCR1250 said: Again, it works perfect for me and countless others or we all would use something else.. This explains below pretty well on how it works.. Here are my notes from when I was researching it vs Stabil. Star Tron contains a blend of enzymes vs emulsifiers. The enzymes allow more oxygen to attach to fuel hydrocarbons so that they burn more completely. This translates into more power and better fuel economy. Engines start more easily and run more smoothly. Carbon deposits (unburnt fuel) are prevented. Harmful emissions (unburnt fuel) are significantly reduced. The enzymes disperse moisture so that it can be removed while the engine operates; by breaking water molecules into tiny sub-micron-sized particles, they can be vaporized during the combustion process. You cannot ‘burn’ water nor can you magically make it disappear. Alcohol-based emulsifiers make this claim, but they’re false. Emulsified fuel leads to carbon deposits that harm performance. The enzymes also disperse debris such as varnish and gum into tiny particulates so that they too can be eliminated as the engine operates. They will remove existing carbon deposits. Star Tron will stabilize fuel chemistry for up to 2 years, which is critical with ethanol-blended fuel that can begin to degrade in as little as 2 weeks. Ethanol and gasoline do not & cannot chemically bond. Ethanol and water do chemically bond. If more than .5% water (by volume) enters the fuel, the water/ethanol mixture weighs more than the gas. So it drops to the bottom of the fuel tank, forming a distinct layer. This is phase separation. You can help prevent it by keeping the water content below .5%. Star Tron will improve the octane of old, substandard or off-spec fuel. It can be used in any 2-cycle or 4-cycle engine fueled by gasoline. There is also a diesel fuel formula. For best results, it is to be used year-round, added at every fillup. 1. Naphtha is not an active ingredient in StarTron, it's the carrier to spread the active ingredients throughout the fuel. Comparing StarTron to any other fuel additive because they both contain mostly naphtha is like comparing beer to coffee because they both contain mostly water. 2. There a lot of problems with E10 that StarTron fixes. I will just address the most notable ones here. First, and of most concern is water control. Enzymes affect electrical surface charges of various target molecules. These are the bonds that hold water molecules together, the bonds that hold hydrocarbons together, and affect how the two coexist. Interfacial surface tension between water and hydrocarbons is the main concern and the culprit in water-related phase separation. Ethanol does not like gasoline, and it's not electrically bonded to it. It's just close enough to hydrocarbon's physical characteristics to stay dispersed. That means ethanol molecules are free-floating in the fuel. Gas is electrically neutral. On the other hand, ethanol and water are charged (the term is "polar") and they love each other. That's why ethanol will suck water right out of the air. The water bonds permanently to the ethanol, and being heavier than gas, it settles, taking the octane from the ethanol with it. When it comes to water in the fuel, it is "how much and how large" that determines potential harm. Water does not exist in its textbook H2O formula. It’s several to even hundreds of molecules form "clusters". StarTron reduces the water molecule's cluster size by accelerating the rate of proton exchange between water molecules, which lowers the cluster's surface tension and its repulsion from hydrocarbons. (Water and oil don't mix due to the electrical charge of water). Emulsifiers or detergents also work by altering the surface charge of their target molecules. The difference is the detergent (Stabil and other similar chemicals) bond water to the emulsifier, which typically forms a “micelle", which is a where the water rolls into a large drop and is surrounded by hundreds of detergent molecules that also bond to the hydrocarbon. Think about dish soap. The detergent releases the electrical charge of the food (protein) molecules from the dish and then because it wants to crawl away from the charged water, it rolls into a ball, and the detergent holds the ball in the water to be flushed away. That is an "oil-in-water" emulsion, also known as a micelle. It works the other way as well, where the water is repulsed and rolls up into a ball, and the emulsifier holds the water in suspension in the oil, known as the "Water-in -Oil" emulsion, or a "reverse micelle". The reaction is over at that point, and the result is a much larger combination molecule. Water, when too high in quantity, or too large in molecular size, displaces fuel as a boundary layer lubricant between metal surfaces, which causes wear on pumps and close tolerance fuel system components. StarTron's impact on the water molecule is to reduce the cluster size to a size known as a colloid. That's so small it will stay in suspension without an emulsifier's chemical bond, at least for a while. This is why, during operation where there is some fuel movement, StarTron will act just like a detergent and move microscopic drops of water up into the fuel column where it is harmlessly burned off. However, the molecule size is not large enough to reduce lubricity, and it's really a very small amount of water being suspended. Once shut down, after a few minutes, the water will fall out of suspension, as it’s not electrically bound to the gas. Here's another huge difference between enzymes and detergents. Enzymes never become part of the reaction. They are "catalysts". They initiate or accelerate chemical reactions, but release themselves from the reaction and start a new one, millions of times per second. Its takes only a few molecules to do what untold numbers of detergent molecules do. That's why Startron is over 99% carrier solvent. Enzymes can also reduce surface tension in hydrocarbons, which allows finer atomization which allows faster reactions with oxygen, i.e. better combustion. That's what really puts StarTron head and shoulders over detergents. It's not just cleaning the fuel system, it's also catalyzing combustion. That prevents carbon deposits, too. Storage stability is greatly improved and has been well documented in independent lab tests. However, the function has been extremely difficult to pinpoint the exact biochemical pathway. Best theory right now is that by reducing the electrical oxidation potential the absorption of atmospheric oxygen (polymerization) is retarded. Unlike with conventional chemical stabilizers, where they believe it works to stabilize fuel by terminating end chain radicals by donating a nitrogen atom, the enzymatic process is not fully understood here. There is no nitrogen atom, so StarTron does not add any "outside" atom or molecule to the radical hydrocarbon. It's done by altering the hydrocarbon's tendency to like oxygen. Startron also reduces existent gums, which may be involved in precipitation of solids in stored gas. This is also notable in reducing combustion chamber deposits and gums on fuel system parts. 3. Please don't be offended, but I don't know what research led you to believe that enzymes can't be suspended in petroleum, although it sounds very familiar to the laments of a conventional chemical based competitor that has made the same statement. The fact is, the first use of biocatalysts (enzymes) in fuel dates back to 1959, by Phillips Petroleum. There are many patents and literally, I have read at least 200 scientific (out of thousands) research papers on enzymes in petroleum for various applications. The entire soil reclamation industry (cleaning up fuel spills at gas stations) is built on enzymes suspended in petroleum carriers, and I personally was selling these in the early 1980's. Also, diesel fuel is famous for growing fungi and mold, which is why all the additive companies sell fuel biocides. The organisms secrete enzymes to break down the petroleum for food. Fact is, enzymes are easily suspended in petroleum and nature has been doing it for hundreds of millions of years. Its enzymes that broke down organic matter to form petroleum in the first place. 4. You are adding a few drops of Naphtha per gallon. It won't affect the flash point either way. 5. The restoration of phase-separated fuel is a tough subject to address. To most people it's when water and some alcohol drop to the bottom. To the fuel pros, it's when there is enough water to trigger an instantaneous and near complete fallout of ALL the alcohol, ruining the fuel completely. Given that water will separate from fuel, even e-10, you can have water pooled on the bottom with some ethanol, but the fuel can still have ethanol in it as well. And this is readily restored by adding Startron and operating the vehicle. However, if there is a large amount of water and it's been really well shaken through the entire fuel tank, and all the alcohol has tripped out, then no, you can't put that water and alcohol back into suspension just by adding Startron. However, the engine companies say "dump" the fuel. That's not practical, and generally not necessary. Add fresh gasoline along with Startron. That will soak up .5% water by volume of the new fuel, and the Startron will restore the combustion characteristics of the old fuel. It generally takes a couple of fill ups to get all the water out, and requires some agitation. We have been successful at this for several years because most fuel is not completely ruined. If total phase separation occurred often, we would have every vehicle and vessel in the southeast dead (in the water) from pumping water and ethanol into their engines. It's a legitimate problem, but not that common in its extreme. 6. Initial fuel quality plays a huge role in how long treated fuel will last. Refinery samples we have tested from California were found to have two to three times the stability of fuel made in the Gulf. The oxidation tests with Startron show much larger percentages of increases in stability with Gulf fuel, which is to be expected. If the fuel is initially so stable that it doesn't oxidize on its own, an anti-oxidant isn't of much use. So what you start with determines how long it can go after treatment. With straight gas, you could get two years out of stored fuel. However, E-10 is not as stable. We have seen excellent numbers in the lab, ranging from 60% increases to as high as 300%. However, there is a caveat. The ASTM test for gas oxidation is NOT approved for Ethanol fuels, so the numbers may not be as precise as they would be in conventional gas. We are satisfied with one year of storage in a properly sealed fuel system, when treating dry, fresh gas. Always store the tank full to reduce oxygen contact space, and if you know it's going to be a winter-long storage, use a double dose of StarTron in E-10 for extra security. Startron has reduced rust caused by water in fuel in lab tests, and has a great history in the marine industry preventing corrosion. Ethanol, when sitting with water for long periods of time can attack metals, so we improve that aspect of the fuel. Startron reduces existent gums in the gas, which reduces gum deposit formation, another problem with E10. StarTron improves combustion, which restores lost fuel economy due to E10's 3% lower BTU value. StarTron is effective in helping fight the cold-start problem caused by vaporization issues of ethanol. Yeah man cool, you can get a gallon of Kero at the gas station for $4, save you some money since the both have the exact same chemical make up and kero works good in your gas motors.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fireball 440 Posted September 7, 2020 Author Share Posted September 7, 2020 1250, can you just make a 8 minute documentary about this? Nobody's reading any of that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XCR1250 Posted September 7, 2020 Share Posted September 7, 2020 3 minutes ago, Fireball 440 said: 1250, can you just make a 8 minute documentary about this? Nobody's reading any of that. Sorry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s pump Posted September 7, 2020 Share Posted September 7, 2020 2 hours ago, XCR1250 said: FUEL ADDITIVES Star Tron Fuel Treatment Review JANUARY 23, 2019 Star Tron makes a great fuel additive that is enzyme based. The Star Tron Enzyme Fuel Treatment comes in a concentrated formula. A 32 oz bottle will treat over 500 gallons. The Star Tron additive helps eliminate problems created by ethanol. It will prevent the fuel separating brought on by the alcohol content in ethanol. It can help keep fuel fresh for up to 24 months and even has the capability to enhance or rejuvenate old fuel. This is very important, especially with motorcycles, boats, or vehicle which are not driven often. Star Tron Fuel Treatment Star Tron Enzyme Fuel Treatment has an amazing ability to clean fuel components and improve emissions. It will dissolve carbon deposits on carburetors, injectors, and valves. Star Tron is safe to use on all engines. Whether you have a small engine, large engine, or even if it is a 2-stroke or 4-stroke, Star Tron fuel additive is right for you. 5 Best Boat Engine Fuel Additives (Reviews Updated 2020) April 11, 2020 Table of Contents Maintenance of a boat engine is an important part of keeping a boat running smoothly. Regular checks and services prevent the engine from seizing up or breaking, resulting in potentially expensive and time consuming repairs. Boat engine fuel additives help to keep an engine healthy and running smoothly by providing certain chemicals which the engine requires. BEST BOAT ENGINE FUEL ADDITIVES Here are our Boat Engine Fuel Additives reviews. 1. FUEL OX COMPLETE FUEL TREATMENT AND COMBUSTION CATALYST The Fuel Ox Complete Fuel Treatment and Combustion Catalyst is a high quality boat engine fuel additive designed to improve the health of an engine. This product cuts regenerations and emissions. It provides an earlier ignition and through burn of fuel. Lubricates & cleans engine Protects against ethanol Increases fuel economy by 10% Check Price on Amazon 2. STAR TRON ENZYME FUEL TREATMENT The Star Tron Enzyme Fuel Treatment is a protective additive for boat engine fuel. This additive is composed of a formula which promises to stabilize gasoline for up to 2 years. It promotes smooth running of a boats engine. Prevents phase separation Promotes easy engine starting Cures & prevents ethanol problems Check Price on Amazon 3. MERCURY MARINE QUICKLEEN ENGINE AND FUEL SYSTEM CLEANER The Mercury Marine Quickleen Engine and Fuel System Cleaner is a deep cleaning boat engine fuel additive. This formula is usable throughout the boating season. 1 Ounce of this additive treats 5 gallons of fuel. Aggressive cleaning thoroughly removes carbon deposits Extends spark plug life Prevents engine knocking Check Price on Amazon 4. YAMAHA OUTBOARD RING FREE PLUS FUEL ADDITIVE The Yamaha Outboard Ring Free Plus Fuel Additive is a thoroughly cleaning boat engine fuel additive from a reputable company. This additive provides superior deposit control. It therefore promotes performance of the boats engine. Contains metal filmers for extra protection Cleans fuel injectors Supports intake valves Check Price on Amazon 5. STA-BIL 360 MARINE FUEL STABILIZER The STA-BIL 360 Marine Fuel Stabilizer is a high quality additive for boat engine fuel. This product is available in a variety of sizes. It is also compatible with a range of engine types making it a versatile additive. Top water removing properties Prevents corrosion 1 oz teats 10 gallons of fuel I used the Mercury stuff in my 4 stroke outboard. Made a huge improvement. Still was a hunk of shit but ran and started much better. Sold it and bought a 20 yr old 9.9 2 smoker. Thing is scary fast on an 11 ft Zodiac. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Rigid1 Posted September 7, 2020 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted September 7, 2020 Well since 1250 won't put water in it, test to see if it removes carbon, or see how much carbon it produces when burned R1 is going to..I have some MIB at home, will do the same thing side by side 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awful knawful Posted September 7, 2020 Share Posted September 7, 2020 1 hour ago, Zambroski said: I’ve been a husky consumer for a decade. Good stuff and I just purchased a second Husky rancher saw. No regrets but, I hear the same great stuff about Stijl. Echo is a “pro-Sumer” grade. Rancher is not a pro saw. My father has one, decent homeowner saw, maybe 5-10 cords a year. It will last a lifetime. He also has a 363 special and I have 268xp. Those are pro saws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awful knawful Posted September 7, 2020 Share Posted September 7, 2020 5 minutes ago, Rigid1 said: Well since 1250 won't put water in it, test to see if it removes carbon, or see how much carbon it produces when burned R1 is going to..I have some MIB at home, will do the same thing side by side Waiting on results. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XCR1250 Posted September 7, 2020 Share Posted September 7, 2020 13 minutes ago, Rigid1 said: Well since 1250 won't put water in it, test to see if it removes carbon, or see how much carbon it produces when burned R1 is going to..I have some MIB at home, will do the same thing side by side Never said I wouldn't try it, just a waste of time for me, like I stated, it works as advertised for myself and many others whom I sold it to.. there are countless positive reviews and comments on-line from those who tried it and continue to use it, of course you believe they are all wrong or lying for some reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fireball 440 Posted September 7, 2020 Author Share Posted September 7, 2020 I did a water seperation test on hcs with 87,91, seafoam, and stabil years ago around 2006. Results were not what I expected. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irv Posted September 7, 2020 Share Posted September 7, 2020 3 minutes ago, Fireball 440 said: I did a water seperation test on hcs with 87,91, seafoam, and stabil years ago around 2006. Results were not what I expected. I exclusively use Sea Foam and have for years. Not saying it works for phase separation but I normally try to use high test/non ethanol fuels (Costco) when I can, especially in my boat. I also believe, for the most part, we have better fuels/gas up here than state side but I could be wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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