frenchy Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, f7ben said: I see you quickly and quietly retreated from the article I posted Heres a 100% irrefutable fact If the US immediately employed reciprocal tariffs with Germany on all goods the german economy would collapse. I never even opened it. And while that may be true (although I highly doubt it) I still don't know what relevance it has to this discussion. Edited December 9, 2019 by frenchy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f7ben Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 1 minute ago, frenchy said: I never even opened it. And while that may be true (although I highly doubt it) I still don't know what relevance it has to this discussion. Its relevant because Germany is far more "socialist" than the US. If they didnt restrict access to their market they would be in a perpetual state of recession like most other EU member states Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted December 9, 2019 Author Share Posted December 9, 2019 5 minutes ago, frenchy said: oh, so they are doing it the way it was supposed to be done and everyone else is doing it wrong? Define "wrong". Using the apparatus of the state to protect profits is end stage capitalism: "These corporations, whether in the banking sector, the agricultural and food industries, the arms industries or the communications industries, would use their power, usually by seizing the mechanisms of state, to prevent anyone from challenging their monopoly. They would fix prices to maximize profit. They would, as they [have been doing], push through trade deals such as the TPP and CAFTA to further weaken the nation-state’s ability to impede exploitation by imposing environmental regulations or monitoring working conditions. And in the end these corporate monopolies would obliterate free market competition." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenchy Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, f7ben said: Its relevant because Germany is far more "socialist" than the US. If they didnt restrict access to their market they would be in a perpetual state of recession like most other EU member states It has a social safety net but it is still very much a capitalist country. Which was my point from the start. It also speaks to a bigger issue - the quest for shareholder profit that really defies traditional economic logic, is purely an American construct. And has done more to 'destabilize' capitalism in America through short sighted profit targets. Edited December 9, 2019 by frenchy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f7ben Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 1 minute ago, frenchy said: It has a social safety net but it is still very much a capitalist country. Which was my point from the start. It also speaks to a bigger issue - the quest for shareholder profit that really defies traditional economic logic, is purely an American construct. And has done more to 'destabilize' capitalism in America through short sighted profit targets. Capitalism is defined by the insatiable quest for profit and efficiency. That's the whole point of calitalism Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted December 9, 2019 Author Share Posted December 9, 2019 Government expenditure accounts for 41 percent of GDP. Corporate capitalists intend to seize this money, hence the privatization of whole parts of the military, the push to privatize Social Security, the contracting of corporations to collect 70 percent of intelligence for our 16 intelligence agencies, as well as the privatization of prisons, schools and our disastrous for-profit health care service. None of these seizures of basic services make them more efficient or reduce costs. That is not the point. It is about feeding off the carcass of the state. And it ensures the disintegration of the structures that sustain capitalism itself. All this Marx got. Marx illuminated these contradictions within capitalism. He understood that the idea of capitalism—free trade, free markets, individualism, innovation, self-development—works only in the utopian mind of a true believer such as Alan Greenspan, never in reality. The hoarding of wealth by a tiny capitalist elite, Marx foresaw, along with the exploitation of the workers, meant that the masses could no longer buy the products that propelled capitalism forward. Wealth becomes concentrated in the hands of a tiny elite—the world’s richest 1 percent will own more than half of the world’s wealth by next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted December 9, 2019 Author Share Posted December 9, 2019 2 minutes ago, f7ben said: Capitalism is defined by the insatiable quest for profit and efficiency. That's the whole point of calitalism Efficiency in creating profit, not efficient use of resources. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anler Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 1 hour ago, XCR1250 said: Let me know when that affects you somehow, I have heard about the debt every year as long as I've been alive and yet it has never affected me at all. You can say the same thing about Canada. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted December 9, 2019 Author Share Posted December 9, 2019 1 hour ago, XCR1250 said: Let me know when that affects you somehow, I have heard about the debt every year as long as I've been alive and yet it has never affected me at all. Ok boomer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f7ben Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 4 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Efficiency in creating profit, not efficient use of resources. It depends on how you view the term efficient. If the use of those resources creates more profit then it is indeed more efficient Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted December 9, 2019 Author Share Posted December 9, 2019 Just now, f7ben said: It depends on how you view the term efficient. If the use of those resources creates more profit then it is indeed more efficient Yeah but it usually isn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 1 hour ago, f7ben said: There isnt one single socialist state in the world as Marx defined it. Authoritarian dictatorships are not socialism In your la la land, the only socialism that ever existed isn’t real socialism, and the fairy tale socialism that can never exist is “real” socialism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anler Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 1 minute ago, motonoggin said: Ok boomer Right? He'll be dead when it goes boom. "Well it was fine when I was around" 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f7ben Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 Just now, Tickle Shits said: In your la la land, the only socialism that ever existed isn’t real socialism, and the fairy tale socialism that can never exist is “real” socialism. Derp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f7ben Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 Just now, Anler said: Right? He'll be dead when it goes boom. "Well it was fine when I was around" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XCR1250 Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 2 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Ok boomer Thanks for the compliment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XCR1250 Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 1 minute ago, Anler said: Right? He'll be dead when it goes boom. "Well it was fine when I was around" What 200 years from now? Listen I've heard about the "boom" for more than 72 years, still hasn't happened..the sky is falling..LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 3 minutes ago, f7ben said: Derp That’s how you sound ya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anler Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 Just now, XCR1250 said: What 200 years from now? Listen I've heard about the "boom" for more than 72 years, still hasn't happened..the sky is falling..LOL Maybe, maybe not. The largest hedge funds are buying puts and shorts that the market is going to implode by March of 2020. Like billions of dollars worth. Why would they do that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XCR1250 Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 2 minutes ago, Anler said: Maybe, maybe not. The largest hedge funds are buying puts and shorts that the market is going to implode by March of 2020. Like billions of dollars worth. Why would they do that? Happened before..ask your Broker.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member steve from amherst Posted December 9, 2019 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted December 9, 2019 3 minutes ago, Anler said: Maybe, maybe not. The largest hedge funds are buying puts and shorts that the market is going to implode by March of 2020. Like billions of dollars worth. Why would they do that? Because they are planning on causing a correction by dumping all of their holdings at once. The repurchasing them for a lot less money. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anler Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 Listen I am a capitalist, i run more than one company and I like profits. But if I ran those companies like our govt runs I would have been out of business a long time ago. If you dont understand basic math then I'm sure everything seems fine to you. But the numbers dont add up and the fed is dumping a trillion dollars into the repo markets to keep something from going pop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcticCrusher Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 5 minutes ago, Anler said: Maybe, maybe not. The largest hedge funds are buying puts and shorts that the market is going to implode by March of 2020. Like billions of dollars worth. Why would they do that? Cause they have no idea what they are doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcticCrusher Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 2 minutes ago, steve from amherst said: Because they are planning on causing a correction by dumping all of their holdings at once. The repurchasing them for a lot less money. Yah sure, but show me those doing it for a couple of decades that I would want to follow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 3 minutes ago, steve from amherst said: Because they are planning on causing a correction by dumping all of their holdings at once. The repurchasing them for a lot less money. Yup it’s happened before and if you can weather the storm, there’s so much opportunity after a crash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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