motonoggin Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 (edited) 10 minutes ago, revkev6 said: not at all where did I put words in your mouth?? ok, thats fine. but why are you going off all unhinged on this guy then?? his point has nothing to do with any "type of" or reasoning for a hierarchy. he says, human biology is wired to be in them, and the higher we are in them the happier we generally are. the last bit I will slightly disagree with, as my personal experience has shown that some people have a roll or level that they are comfortable filling. put them above that level and their happiness decreases. regardless, that argument is not part of our discussion. so lets get back to debate. society can exist without hierarchies yes or no? Your last question implies that you're still operating under the assumption that I've said society doesn't need hierarchy to exist. I haven't said that. However, if I agree that society does need hierarchy, of the justified sort, to exist, you'll falsely claim victory because you're still pretending. If I disagree, then I'd be foolish. Either way you can claim some sort of false victory. Edited January 23, 2018 by motonoggin 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 3 minutes ago, Cold War said: Good lord. The only thing that changes is who Motto is arguing with. These guys can't get enough of being impaled upon their own spear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cold War Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 3 minutes ago, motonoggin said: These guys can't get enough of being impaled upon their own spear. I don't understand why it so important for everyone to get your blessing on not being a racist. Personally, I'm fine with it. I know my biases and I know what kind of person I am. I sleep well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Just now, Cold War said: I don't understand why it so important for everyone to get your blessing on not being a racist. Personally, I'm fine with it. I know my biases and I know what kind of person I am. I sleep well. Take this to the racist thread, please. Seriously, I want to address this, just not here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revkev6 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 3 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Your last question implies that you're still operating under the assumption that I've said society doesn't need hierarchy to exist. I haven't said that. However, if I agree that society does need hierarchy, of the justified sort, to exist, you'll falsely claim victory because you're still pretending. If I disagree, then I'd be foolish. Either way you can claim some sort of false victory. no, I'd say your last 8 pages of arguing are all for not... because the guy said nothing about any specific types of hierarchy in the blip of interview shown there. you put words and arguments in that were not relevant to the conversation then we can agree that hierarchy and social interaction are a human requirement one way or another. pack animals with a pack mentality. just look at this place. whats your anarchists solution for this society where all are equal yet not equal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, Cold War said: I don't understand why it so important for everyone to get your blessing on not being a racist. Personally, I'm fine with it. I know my biases and I know what kind of person I am. I sleep well. That’s the odd thing about liberals. For some odd reason, they think the stronger members of society need to strive for the social approval of the weaker members. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Just now, revkev6 said: no, I'd say your last 8 pages of arguing are all for not... because the guy said nothing about any specific types of hierarchy in the blip of interview shown there. you put words and arguments in that were not relevant to the conversation then we can agree that hierarchy and social interaction are a human requirement one way or another. pack animals with a pack mentality. just look at this place. whats your anarchists solution for this society where all are equal yet not equal He absolutely did mention specifically the patriarchal western capitalist hierarchy we live under today, then attempted to justify it by presenting a strawman, and then used the lobster hierarchy to justify all hierarchies. Start at 26:20 in the OP vid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 3 minutes ago, revkev6 said: no, I'd say your last 8 pages of arguing are all for not... because the guy said nothing about any specific types of hierarchy in the blip of interview shown there. you put words and arguments in that were not relevant to the conversation then we can agree that hierarchy and social interaction are a human requirement one way or another. pack animals with a pack mentality. just look at this place. whats your anarchists solution for this society where all are equal yet not equal The solution is to dismantle all unjustified hierarchy and authority Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skidude600 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Just for arguments sake, do all existing hierarchies consist of differing levels of power? Is that not in and of itself a form of oppression therefore making them unjustified? IMO there will always be a need for leadership. In saying so, I also believe there will be those that will abuse and take advantage of their position in life. It is inherent in natures dna and part of its survival instinct. Until that aspect can be weeded out, IF it can be weeded out, nothing will change. Just my thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revkev6 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 1 minute ago, motonoggin said: He absolutely did mention specifically the patriarchal western capitalist hierarchy we live under today, then attempted to justify it by presenting a strawman, and then used the lobster hierarchy to justify all hierarchies. Start at 26:20 in the OP vid. yes, he mentions it specifically because he disagrees with it. Just now, motonoggin said: The solution is to dismantle all unjustified hierarchy and authority obviously, this would have to happen. i'm talking what checks and balances in this society stop one from taking advantage of a system. your arguments always make me want to call you piggy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 27 minutes ago, revkev6 said: yes, he mentions it specifically because he disagrees with it. obviously, this would have to happen. i'm talking what checks and balances in this society stop one from taking advantage of a system. your arguments always make me want to call you piggy He's not 'disagreeing'. He's attempting, albeit poorly, to justify the current hierarchy. Which is what you were attempting to do until now. So can we all agree that unjustified hierarchy and authority is bad, and that doesn't mean that all hierarchy is bad? Can we all also agree that the existence of one hierarchy doesn't justify all hierarchies? If yes to both, then we can move on to figuring out how we'd dismantle unjustified hierarchy and authority and prevent it from rising again. If no to either, then GTFO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revkev6 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Just now, motonoggin said: He's not 'disagreeing'. He's attempting, albeit poorly, to justify the current hierarchy. Which is what you were attempting to do until now. So can we all agree that unjustified hierarchy and authority is bad, and that doesn't mean that all hierarchy is bad? Can we all also agree that the existence of one hierarchy doesn't justify all hierarchies? If yes to both, then we can move on to figuring out how we'd dismantle unjustified hierarchy and authority and prevent it from rising again. If no to either, then GTFO. that's your opinion of what he said. All I said from the beginning is Humans are biologically predisposed to be part of a hierarchy. nothing more or less. you are the one putting terms and words in my mouth. I think you are stretching point number two a little. unjustified is a little broad and authority is not necessarily bad. three also, oversimplified. it's on the level of a 1st grader. but lets say that's a yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 (edited) 12 minutes ago, revkev6 said: that's your opinion of what he said. All I said from the beginning is Humans are biologically predisposed to be part of a hierarchy. nothing more or less. ^^^^^ no one disagrees with this. The problem is that it's being used as a pretense to justify any hierarchy^^^^^ you are the one putting terms and words in my mouth. I think you are stretching point number two a little. unjustified is a little broad and authority is not necessarily bad. ^^^ this is the kind of shit I'm talking about. I meant 'unjustified authority' and you goddamn well know that but you have to pretend that you don't so it seems like you're winning the debate here. You're also asserting that the term 'unjustified' is 'too broad' without defining what it means in this context. More bullshit flim flam from someone who is more interested in pretense than debate ^^^^ three also, oversimplified. it's on the level of a 1st grader. but lets say that's a yes. ^^^ you just posed a loaded assed question a couple posts back, you don't get to lecture me about oversimplification ^^^^ I mean, how can I even engage with you in good faith when you won't do the same? Edited January 23, 2018 by motonoggin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledderj Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 5 hours ago, revkev6 said: He's not at all if you listen to what he said... She brought that up and he scoffed at the idea. He's going back to the dawn of man. white europeans aren't part of his theory. I've had this conversation with you before and you couldn't answer me then. show me ONE group of humans that did not have a social hierarchy. It does not exist. Humans naturally fall into a hierarchy. even then they make up bigger things to be bigger leaders! one does need to actually listen to what is said though. You seem to think that humans can exist without a hierarchy. if that is the case please show me where it has happened. actually, this part I highly dislike. he has flopped on his take on the pronouns. watch another interview where he would not use any pronouns. this one he said he would if asked. as with about half the professors I've dealt with, his classroom is his domain. if you piss in their Cheerio bowl they will fail you. obviously somewhere along the line he was told to change his tune. You are correct, he has walked back his staunch opposition to the existence of all these new gender specific pronouns. Not sure why, possibly because he knows he's going to lose the public opinion battle on them. That and maybe the fact that language is a fluid thing. Any one person can't really influence it much. Of course, Government forcing speech is another story. That part he's focusing on, and I guessing it's because he knows his argument is on solid ground there. Personally I think it's ridiculous, but given time, the chronically aggrieved of the world will eat their own. Moto's other ramblings I have to save for when I have more time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildboer Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 6 hours ago, revkev6 said: He's not at all if you listen to what he said... She brought that up and he scoffed at the idea. He's going back to the dawn of man. white europeans aren't part of his theory. I've had this conversation with you before and you couldn't answer me then. show me ONE group of humans that did not have a social hierarchy. It does not exist. Humans naturally fall into a hierarchy. even then they make up bigger things to be bigger leaders! one does need to actually listen to what is said though. You seem to think that humans can exist without a hierarchy. if that is the case please show me where it has happened. actually, this part I highly dislike. he has flopped on his take on the pronouns. watch another interview where he would not use any pronouns. this one he said he would if asked. as with about half the professors I've dealt with, his classroom is his domain. if you piss in their Cheerio bowl they will fail you. obviously somewhere along the line he was told to change his tune. He was wrong with his original stance on pronouns, his statements in this video are nearly spot on though. Use they/them when asked by an individual, but do not legislate what are or are not appropriate words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revkev6 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 4 hours ago, motonoggin said: I mean, how can I even engage with you in good faith when you won't do the same? Missed half your mods in my post earlier sucks when work gets on the way of reading a post thoroughly. :bh: I'm not getting the justification for our current situation that you keep pointing out. .maybe it's in a context you have looked at in other locations You have beat hierarchies and authority to death so much I can't tell where you stand right now. Hell a year or two ago you were not even an anarchist. How do you expect me to know exactly where your are when your opinions change like the shifting sands. You won't pin your own idealism down beyond everyone should be equal and you don't know anarchism. You make up terms like unjustified hierarchies like they have a meaning or definition then expect the world to take them as law when we question them. You want things questioned no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildboer Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 1 minute ago, revkev6 said: Missed half your mods in my post earlier sucks when work gets on the way of reading a post thoroughly. :bh: I'm not getting the justification for our current situation that you keep pointing out. .maybe it's in a context you have looked at in other locations You have beat hierarchies and authority to death so much I can't tell where you stand right now. Hell a year or two ago you were not even an anarchist. How do you expect me to know exactly where your are when your opinions change like the shifting sands. You won't pin your own idealism down beyond everyone should be equal and you don't know anarchism. You make up terms like unjustified hierarchies like they have a meaning or definition then expect the world to take them as law when we question them. You want things questioned no? Moto makes perfect sense and those terms aren't made up, they do mean something. An unjustified hierarchy is one created by people. Lobsters aren't creating these hierarchies, they just happen. Anarchy doesn't mean a lack of hierarchy, it means not creating arbitrary hierarchies because natural ones already exist without us having to do anything. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zambroski Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 8 minutes ago, Wildboer said: Moto makes perfect sense and those terms aren't made up, they do mean something. An unjustified hierarchy is one created by people. Lobsters aren't creating these hierarchies, they just happen. Anarchy doesn't mean a lack of hierarchy, it means not creating arbitrary hierarchies because natural ones already exist without us having to do anything. That's a trigger word to be used in societal debates. It has no place in the animal kingdom. And yep...we're animals. SO....if we stripped everything away from eachother...you don't think there will be a hierachy that naturally happens? The weaker will instinctively follow the strong out of the desire for self preservation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f7ben Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 1 minute ago, Zambroski said: That's a trigger word to be used in societal debates. It has no place in the animal kingdom. And yep...we're animals. SO....if we stripped everything away from eachother...you don't think there will be a hierachy that naturally happens? The weaker will instinctly follow the strong. so dumb Go rape a chick and then try the "I'm just an animal bro" defense at your trial Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zambroski Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Just now, f7ben said: so dumb Go rape a chick and then try the "I'm just an animal bro" defense at your trial Back to the societal debate for the MN simple. I thought this was about lobsters tho? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 So the odd retarded animal being gay is no longer a valid excuse for buggery Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revkev6 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 1 minute ago, f7ben said: so dumb Go rape a chick and then try the "I'm just an animal bro" defense at your trial Yes because that's the same. Your lower on the intellect level than a lobster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildboer Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 1 minute ago, Zambroski said: That's a trigger word to be used in societal debates. It has no place in the animal kingdom. And yep...we're animals. SO....if we stripped everything away from eachother...you don't think there will be a hierachy that naturally happens? The weaker will instinctly follow the strong. Nah, it's a word, created by animals for use by animals. It describes a lack of justification. Shall I teach you the definition of justification and justified too? Nah, the smart will exploit the Zambroskis. Humans hierarchies are much more complicated than strength vs. weakness. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f7ben Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Just now, Zambroski said: Back to the societal debate for the MN simple. I thought this was about lobsters tho? You're the lowest common denominator Bro and dont forget it. There is literally nothing that is below your level of understanding Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f7ben Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, revkev6 said: Yes because that's the same. Your lower on the intellect level than a lobster Defending poor behavior because "we're just animals" is whats going on here.......you're a fucking retard and so is Transzam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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