motonoggin Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, revkev6 said: he's saying humans have always had heirarchies and always will. end point. no social darwinism or other labels. he's braking it down to a biological reasoning. if he is wrong there would be a society of humans that did not have one. point it out to the class and prove him and I wrong. your superior intellect should have no problem. Again, you and Peterson are arguing against something no one has ever said. As an anarchist, I am extremely skeptical regarding formation of hierarchies. They have been proven to be a tool of oppression. They are also an important tool of survival for humanity. I will support justified hierarchy because I thoroughly understand the need for them in certain situations. But that in no way means that our current oppressive hierarchy is justified, which is exactly what he's trying to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry ginger Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Moto wants to ingore the fact that end of the day we are just animals and we are going to follow heirarchies just like the rest of the animal kingdom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 There will always be hierarchy. There will always be stronger people, weaker people, smarter people, dumber people. Also where’s there’s people there’s politics and where there’s liberals there’s weaklings that need to be taken care of by others. The current general social construct of hierarchy’s will always exist in some form because it has to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Just now, Angry ginger said: Moto wants to ingore the fact that end of the day we are just animals and we are going to follow heirarchies just like the rest of the animal kingdom Holy fuck you guys can't make a fucking post without a logical fallacy. I've said time and time again, unjustified authority and hierarchy is what I oppose. No one is saying all hierarchy is bad. Please fucking stop pretending so you can feel like you scored some sort of points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry ginger Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Again, you and Peterson are arguing against something no one has ever said. As an anarchist, I am extremely skeptical regarding formation of hierarchies. They have been proven to be a tool of oppression. They are also an important tool of survival for humanity. I will support justified hierarchy because I thoroughly understand the need for them in certain situations. But that in no way means that our current oppressive hierarchy is justified, which is exactly what he's trying to say. OK now we can have hierarchical leaders but your going to have some magical way to make sure those don't become oppressive in your Utopian society, SMH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry ginger Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 1 minute ago, motonoggin said: Holy fuck you guys can't make a fucking post without a logical fallacy. I've said time and time again, unjustified authority and hierarchy is what I oppose. No one is saying all hierarchy is bad. Please fucking stop pretending so you can feel like you scored some sort of points. please stop pretending your the smartest guy in the room because your not- you ignore everything that occurs in societies that are not capitalistic both within nature as well as the history of human evolution where at no time has there ever been a situation where there was not have and have nots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Just now, Angry ginger said: OK now we can have hierarchical leaders but your going to have some magical way to make sure those don't become oppressive in your Utopian society, SMH Yes, there is a way to do that, and I'd love to explain it, but no one here seems capable of even distinguishing the differences between a justified and unjustified hierarchy. And you all love your logical fallacies so much it'd be like trying to teach kindergartners trigonometry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zambroski Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 10 hours ago, XC.Morrison said: Jordan: I like pizza. Cathy: So you’re saying pizza tastes good? Jordan: I didn’t say that. I’m just saying the data shows that I ate pizza 4 times last week. Cathy: Umm, okay.... Jordan: gotchya!!! And also you’ve offended me. I see there is some good brain activity in here with some solid rational and reasoning posts. This one above isn't one but...meh. "Lobsters". Unreal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Just now, Angry ginger said: please stop pretending your the smartest guy in the room because your not- you ignore everything that occurs in societies that are not capitalistic both within nature as well as the history of human evolution where at no time has there ever been a situation where there was not have and have nots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revkev6 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 3 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Again, you and Peterson are arguing against something no one has ever said. As an anarchist, I am extremely skeptical regarding formation of hierarchies. They have been proven to be a tool of oppression. They are also an important tool of survival for humanity. I will support justified hierarchy because I thoroughly understand the need for them in certain situations. But that in no way means that our current oppressive hierarchy is justified, which is exactly what he's trying to say. now you are flip flopping... you just said he's arguing for a reasoning for the patriarchal hierarchy... which he adamantly says is false btw. now you say we are arguing something no one said?? You are the one who doesn't understand what his point is. I know your points... anarchy good! government bad! etc. if that all ended today and you only had a bunch of kids left who knew nothing, you would end up with lord of the flies. not only do humans have a desire to have this hierarchy but certain people have predefined desires as to where they should fit in. some are leaders, some are followers. you know this, but cannot admit it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 1 minute ago, Angry ginger said: please stop pretending your the smartest guy in the room because your not- you ignore everything that occurs in societies that are not capitalistic both within nature as well as the history of human evolution where at no time has there ever been a situation where there was not have and have nots. Apparently I'm one of a handful who recognizes strawman arguments when I see them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XC.Morrison Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 1 minute ago, Zambroski said: I see there is some good brain activity in here with some solid rational and reasoning posts. This one above isn't one but...meh. "Lobsters". Unreal. Not bad for a squid, or is it lobster brained librul though right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 1 minute ago, revkev6 said: now you are flip flopping... you just said he's arguing for a reasoning for the patriarchal hierarchy... which he adamantly says is false btw. now you say we are arguing something no one said?? You are the one who doesn't understand what his point is. I know your points... anarchy good! government bad! etc. if that all ended today and you only had a bunch of kids left who knew nothing, you would end up with lord of the flies. not only do humans have a desire to have this hierarchy but certain people have predefined desires as to where they should fit in. some are leaders, some are followers. you know this, but cannot admit it. Holy fucking shit. This is some fascist horseshit right here. Twist yourself into more knots in a feeble attempt to justify oppression, go ahead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zambroski Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 3 minutes ago, XC.Morrison said: Not bad for a squid, or is it lobster brained librul though right? It has some humor to it for sure. Credit. And it's squid brain...emotionally bound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revkev6 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Just now, motonoggin said: Holy fucking shit. This is some fascist horseshit right here. Twist yourself into more knots in a feeble attempt to justify oppression, go ahead. I'm still waiting for you to prove me wrong. show me this society. there is nothing new under the sun. the truth does not support your ideals. this is why you get so wound and use this odd anarchist lingo. It has been proven that Humans cannot deal with isolation.. have you ever thought why that is exactly?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Anarchists who have studied the subject: Anarchy is order Reactionary fucks who don't know shit about anarchy: no, anarchy is chaos!!! We must oppress people to survive, and we're going to find a superior pseudoscientific justification for it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 9 hours ago, sledderj said: Dude, he's a Phd in clinical psychology. He taught at Harvard and has written on the subject, as have others. It's not some obscure idea he pulled out of the air. They study lobsters because of their simple nervous system. His assertion is if you unpack the human brain down to basic components, there are distinct similarities. The basic components are the ones that kick in when shit hits the fan and the rest of our brains become unable to cope or process what's going on and thus can and will influence behavior at a very basic level. The hierarchy lobsters naturally fall into could very well be an indicator on one part of a multifaceted explanation as to why humans have done the same. The fact that he was so adamant about it tells me he could go on for hours as to why. Like every other subject in that interview, it's complicated and there's no simple, singular answer to anything. His lobster spiel is but one small sound bite of his overall opinion on the subject. She asked, he answered and you and Moto et al bite into it hook, line and sinker. I give her a little lee way being that she was thinking on her feet on live TV. You actually had time to think about it. Well that shot moto and WillyBlower all to hell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Just now, revkev6 said: I'm still waiting for you to prove me wrong. show me this society. there is nothing new under the sun. the truth does not support your ideals. this is why you get so wound and use this odd anarchist lingo. It has been proven that Humans cannot deal with isolation.. have you ever thought why that is exactly?? Reactionary fuckwad: anarchists say all hierarchies are bad Anarchists: actually, no. We say all unjustified hierarchies are bad, there's a huge difference. Reactionary fuckwad: I'm going to pretend I didn't hear that so I can continue to argue against something you never said and hope people don't notice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revkev6 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Just now, motonoggin said: Reactionary fuckwad: anarchists say all hierarchies are bad Anarchists: actually, no. We say all unjustified hierarchies are bad, there's a huge difference. Reactionary fuckwad: I'm going to pretend I didn't hear that so I can continue to argue against something you never said and hope people don't notice. I skipped it because the sentence before and after put words in my mouth even though I refuted them the previous 3 posts. so stop ignoring what I say please. I never said anything about patriarchal hierarchies good bad or indifferent. I only said that hierarchies are human nature and this is what this guy is saying. you keep going on about unjustified hierarchies... not me. my entire point is simple and irrefutable by anyone. PERIOD. humans are biologically predisposed to be part of a society that involves hierarchies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Let's be honest, guys. What you're attempting to do here is justify oppression, not hierarchy. And Dr. Zoidberg just attempted to give you an argument that supports this notion. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Just now, revkev6 said: I skipped it because the sentence before and after put words in my mouth even though I refuted them the previous 3 posts. so stop ignoring what I say please. I never said anything about patriarchal hierarchies good bad or indifferent. I only said that hierarchies are human nature and this is what this guy is saying. you keep going on about unjustified hierarchies... not me. my entire point is simple and irrefutable by anyone. PERIOD. humans are biologically predisposed to be part of a society that involves hierarchies. Oh, so you can put words in my mouth but I can't do the same with you? Let's be crystal clear on my position: Hierarchies, as long as they are justified and not oppressive, aren't bad. Full stop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 C'mon, let's pretend I didn't say that and play more fuck fuck fallacy games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revkev6 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Just now, motonoggin said: Let's be honest, guys. What you're attempting to do here is justify oppression, not hierarchy. And Dr. Zoidberg just attempted to give you an argument that supports this notion. not at all Just now, motonoggin said: Oh, so you can put words in my mouth but I can't do the same with you? Let's be crystal clear on my position: Hierarchies, as long as they are justified and not oppressive, aren't bad. Full stop. where did I put words in your mouth?? ok, thats fine. but why are you going off all unhinged on this guy then?? his point has nothing to do with any "type of" or reasoning for a hierarchy. he says, human biology is wired to be in them, and the higher we are in them the happier we generally are. the last bit I will slightly disagree with, as my personal experience has shown that some people have a roll or level that they are comfortable filling. put them above that level and their happiness decreases. regardless, that argument is not part of our discussion. so lets get back to debate. society can exist without hierarchies yes or no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, revkev6 said: not at all where did I put words in your mouth?? ok, thats fine. but why are you going off all unhinged on this guy then?? his point has nothing to do with any "type of" or reasoning for a hierarchy. he says, human biology is wired to be in them, and the higher we are in them the happier we generally are. the last bit I will slightly disagree with, as my personal experience has shown that some people have a roll or level that they are comfortable filling. put them above that level and their happiness decreases. regardless, that argument is not part of our discussion. so lets get back to debate. society can exist without hierarchies yes or no? You put words in my mouth by pretending I said all hierarchies are bad. I'm going off on the guy because he's using the existence of any hierarchy to justify them all, in particular the oppressive form. And you're buying it. I won't engage in any further civil discussion until you acknowledge that that is exactly what he's attempting to do. Edited January 23, 2018 by motonoggin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cold War Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Good lord. The only thing that changes is who Motto is arguing with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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