Ooni pizza ovens

[joe_zrt]

https://www.nytimes.com/video/dining/100000002808008/roberta8217s-pizza-dough.html

Hopefully the video works

Edited July 16, 2023 by joe_zrt

[Rigid1]

4 hours ago, Deephaven said:

It adds zero flavor.  Everything is combusted at that temp.

What about wood do you prefer?  The work?  The cleanup?  The fact you have to constantly load it?

Glad to post one if you want.  How much playing with dough experience do you have?  Don't want to put something up that will just make you swear...

Maybe they cook at a different temp than you? Like I do, to get the flavor and the crisp that I prefer on my crust.

Odd what you stated, almost as if it's the only way and the bestest and anyone elses is sub par........

 

[Jimmy Snacks]

1 minute ago, Rigid1 said:

Maybe they cook at a different temp than you? Like I do, to get the flavor and the crisp that I prefer on my crust.

Odd what you stated, almost as if it's the only way and the bestest and anyone elses is sub par........

 

Yep…he is definitely that guy.

[Deephaven]

12 hours ago, Rigid1 said:

Maybe they cook at a different temp than you?

Perhaps, but then not sure why an Ooni would be something you'd look at.  Either way, here is some history and things I've discovered about cooking on a pizza oven.

The whole wood thing is interesting.  The reason it exists is mostly historical based on the crazy regulations the italians put on what they call neopolitan pizza.  ie, the dough is to be made from fine ground medium protein wheat flour, natural yeast, salt and water  and must be formed by hand.  The tomatoes must be from from San Marzano or Vesuvio.  The cheese from free range water buffalo raised in campagnia or lazio or a fior de latte.  The pizza must then be baked in a wood fired oven at over 900F.  So why wood fire?  At the time, commercial bread ovens could reach into the 6’s so not hot enough to make an actual pizza the way that neopolitan is specified.  Specified for heat, not flavor although an Italian pizza oven is drastically different from a cheap back yard one as they are very insulated allowing lower temp cooks as well. 

Either way, looking at that, I don’t think the OP gives a shit about making a true neopolitan pizza so then it comes down to just performance of the pizza oven and which to buy.

A classic argument for wood could be the "smoke“ flavor from the wood.  Over the years BBQ has evolved to be done typically at around 225F +/-50F for optimal smoke.  This can easily be seen looking at the chimney of the smoker.  To get thick smoke you need a fire that is almost smoldering and not burning hotly.  This smoke flavor comes from many compounds but are primarily phenol based.  Phenol combusts into smoke best at lower temps.  At higher temps it is mostly burned.  Obviously being a benzene ring it won’t completely combust, but the higher temps squelch much of the smoke production.   

In a pizza oven, to get to temps above 600F you need a rather aggressive fire which will have nearly none of this smoke production.  Add to that the smoke all goes to the roof of the oven where you are not cooking and fundamentally nearly none of these flavor compounds get near your pizza.  When you also factor in that you are cooking these for a whopping 45-90 seconds the amount of time that "smoke“ can flavor your food is pretty inconsequential.  And yes, if you are doing a classic NY style pizza at 600-700F it will cook a bit longer, but it is still just a few minutes.  NY is also rather hard in a small backyard pizza oven as the crust to topping ratio require a large pie and cooking at 16" pizza in a 16" oven is really tough leaving you with more likely 10" in 12" ovens and 14" in 16". 

The other aspect to this is usability.  Using a cheap backyard pizza oven at lower temp is nearly impossible with wood.  While you can have a lower temp fire, the temperature stability of an Ooni or other similar pizza ovens is not conducive to doing this with a heat source that is variable.  Outside of the pizza stone on the bottom there is fundamental no insulation.  If you are interested in a 600F cook, you would be wildly better off using your oven at 550F and preheating your pizza steel under a broiler to get it to 600 than to try this with wood in a cheap outdoor pizza oven.  Of course if you build a full on italian stone oven you can definitely do this or of course if you use gas you can control the temperature. 

So how does a cook look like on an Ooni/Gozney or such when making neopolitan style pizzas?  My firebox burns best with 3 „logs“ in it.  For logs I take 16“ red oak  logs, cut them in half with my chainsaw and then split them into 2“x2“x8“ or so pieces.  To get it to 850+ the logs need to be in peak burning otherwise the temp drops.  This means for every pizza about 5 min before it goes in I need to add 3 logs and wait for them to fully ignite and get ripping.  This makes it take forever to cook lots of pizzas as you are constantly trying to have fully combusted wood and heat.  If I cook 2 pizzas on one set of logs they have to go in rapid fire and then of course the extra cooling on the stone isn’t ideal.  This basically makes dinner take a long time.  On gas of course this isn’t a problem.

 After cooking with the wood there is a ton of nonsense to clean up as well.  The stones need to be pulled out and the whole firebox vacuumed/cleaned out.  With gas you do nothing as everything is pretty much burnt off.  Of course if you spill cheese or such on the stones you may want to flip them and let the stuff burn off the bottom in the next cook. 

So yes, wood is fun.  I’ve made at least 100 pizzas with it....but it is also somewhat pointless.  In back to back tests I found zero taste difference and just a whole lot of extra work.  The OP is wondering what to buy and who has used what.  Personally I'd buy and use gas and wouldn't do the dual fuel.  Mine came with both so I experimented as it was fun, but did not make a better pizza in fact they were generally worse as it was one more variable and bit of dicking around to make it harder.

[Deephaven]

On 7/16/2023 at 5:19 PM, joe_zrt said:

https://www.nytimes.com/video/dining/100000002808008/roberta8217s-pizza-dough.html

Hopefully the video works

This should be easier.  His stretching is a bit odd, but depending on your dough experience that may be easier.

4 pizzas

450 milliliters of 73F water

1/8 tsp of instant yeast

665 grams 00 Flour

18 grams of salt

Add the yeast and salt to the water and stir, then add the flour and mix with a strong spoon.  Once combined get your hand REALLY wet and squeeze it until the dough is cohesive. 

Cover in the bowl and let sit 30min.

Uncover and do a strength building fold.  Recover and let sit for 30 min.

Uncover and do a strength building fold.  Recover and let sit for 12 hours at room temp.  

Divide into 4 dough balls and put them into a couple quart tupperware containers and put in the fridge for at least overnight, but 4-5 days is ideal.  

Take out of the fridge 2-4 hours before using (depending on the temp of your kitchen).  With the way that video stretched the dough longer is probably better.

This dough will take the 900 degrees brilliantly and requires almost no work on your end.  The folds build enough gluten structure and the longer fermentation time with nearly no yeast builds great flavor.  It is not a super salty dough so don't forget to salt your pizza.

 

 

[DriftBusta]

11 hours ago, Deephaven said:

 

Perhaps, but then not sure why an Ooni would be something you'd look at.  Either way, here is some history and things I've discovered about cooking on a pizza oven.

The whole wood thing is interesting.  The reason it exists is mostly historical based on the crazy regulations the italians put on what they call neopolitan pizza.  ie, the dough is to be made from fine ground medium protein wheat flour, natural yeast, salt and water  and must be formed by hand.  The tomatoes must be from from San Marzano or Vesuvio.  The cheese from free range water buffalo raised in campagnia or lazio or a fior de latte.  The pizza must then be baked in a wood fired oven at over 900F.  So why wood fire?  At the time, commercial bread ovens could reach into the 6’s so not hot enough to make an actual pizza the way that neopolitan is specified.  Specified for heat, not flavor although an Italian pizza oven is drastically different from a cheap back yard one as they are very insulated allowing lower temp cooks as well. 

Either way, looking at that, I don’t think the OP gives a shit about making a true neopolitan pizza so then it comes down to just performance of the pizza oven and which to buy.

A classic argument for wood could be the "smoke“ flavor from the wood.  Over the years BBQ has evolved to be done typically at around 225F +/-50F for optimal smoke.  This can easily be seen looking at the chimney of the smoker.  To get thick smoke you need a fire that is almost smoldering and not burning hotly.  This smoke flavor comes from many compounds but are primarily phenol based.  Phenol combusts into smoke best at lower temps.  At higher temps it is mostly burned.  Obviously being a benzene ring it won’t completely combust, but the higher temps squelch much of the smoke production.   

In a pizza oven, to get to temps above 600F you need a rather aggressive fire which will have nearly none of this smoke production.  Add to that the smoke all goes to the roof of the oven where you are not cooking and fundamentally nearly none of these flavor compounds get near your pizza.  When you also factor in that you are cooking these for a whopping 45-90 seconds the amount of time that "smoke“ can flavor your food is pretty inconsequential.  And yes, if you are doing a classic NY style pizza at 600-700F it will cook a bit longer, but it is still just a few minutes.  NY is also rather hard in a small backyard pizza oven as the crust to topping ratio require a large pie and cooking at 16" pizza in a 16" oven is really tough leaving you with more likely 10" in 12" ovens and 14" in 16". 

The other aspect to this is usability.  Using a cheap backyard pizza oven at lower temp is nearly impossible with wood.  While you can have a lower temp fire, the temperature stability of an Ooni or other similar pizza ovens is not conducive to doing this with a heat source that is variable.  Outside of the pizza stone on the bottom there is fundamental no insulation.  If you are interested in a 600F cook, you would be wildly better off using your oven at 550F and preheating your pizza steel under a broiler to get it to 600 than to try this with wood in a cheap outdoor pizza oven.  Of course if you build a full on italian stone oven you can definitely do this or of course if you use gas you can control the temperature. 

So how does a cook look like on an Ooni/Gozney or such when making neopolitan style pizzas?  My firebox burns best with 3 „logs“ in it.  For logs I take 16“ red oak  logs, cut them in half with my chainsaw and then split them into 2“x2“x8“ or so pieces.  To get it to 850+ the logs need to be in peak burning otherwise the temp drops.  This means for every pizza about 5 min before it goes in I need to add 3 logs and wait for them to fully ignite and get ripping.  This makes it take forever to cook lots of pizzas as you are constantly trying to have fully combusted wood and heat.  If I cook 2 pizzas on one set of logs they have to go in rapid fire and then of course the extra cooling on the stone isn’t ideal.  This basically makes dinner take a long time.  On gas of course this isn’t a problem.

 After cooking with the wood there is a ton of nonsense to clean up as well.  The stones need to be pulled out and the whole firebox vacuumed/cleaned out.  With gas you do nothing as everything is pretty much burnt off.  Of course if you spill cheese or such on the stones you may want to flip them and let the stuff burn off the bottom in the next cook. 

So yes, wood is fun.  I’ve made at least 100 pizzas with it....but it is also somewhat pointless.  In back to back tests I found zero taste difference and just a whole lot of extra work.  The OP is wondering what to buy and who has used what.  Personally I'd buy and use gas and wouldn't do the dual fuel.  Mine came with both so I experimented as it was fun, but did not make a better pizza in fact they were generally worse as it was one more variable and bit of dicking around to make it harder.

 

1 hour ago, Deephaven said:

This should be easier.  His stretching is a bit odd, but depending on your dough experience that may be easier.

4 pizzas

450 milliliters of 73F water

1/8 tsp of instant yeast

665 grams 00 Flour

18 grams of salt

Add the yeast and salt to the water and stir, then add the flour and mix with a strong spoon.  Once combined get your hand REALLY wet and squeeze it until the dough is cohesive. 

Cover in the bowl and let sit 30min.

Uncover and do a strength building fold.  Recover and let sit for 30 min.

Uncover and do a strength building fold.  Recover and let sit for 12 hours at room temp.  

Divide into 4 dough balls and put them into a couple quart tupperware containers and put in the fridge for at least overnight, but 4-5 days is ideal.  

Take out of the fridge 2-4 hours before using (depending on the temp of your kitchen).  With the way that video stretched the dough longer is probably better.

This dough will take the 900 degrees brilliantly and requires almost no work on your end.  The folds build enough gluten structure and the longer fermentation time with nearly no yeast builds great flavor.  It is not a super salty dough so don't forget to salt your pizza.

 

 

Jesus guy.  Its just pizza.   

 

[Big Crappie]

How is this any different from the pizza oven I bought at fleet farm 20 years ago? Serious question because it bakes awesome pizzas and sandwiches. 

[EvilBird]

 

3 hours ago, DriftBusta said:

 

Jesus guy.  Its just pizza.   

 

wtf ! 

[Deephaven]

7 hours ago, Big Crappie said:

How is this any different from the pizza oven I bought at fleet farm 20 years ago? Serious question because it bakes awesome pizzas and sandwiches. 

Temperature.  Those things maybe can hut 500 and I can get my ooni over 950.  Doesn't work for heating a frozen pizza at that temp....

[ArcticCrusher]

Only one person could gay up a pizza thread.