what riding discipline contributed the most to advancing the sport

[Crnr2Crnr]

1 minute ago, HSR said:

You're closer to me than that idiot is. If he came within 100 miles of here he'd stick oot like a sore thumb

ok... but this is a very serious thread, let's stick to opinions and speculation.

 

[Guest]

Just now, Crnr2Crnr said:

ok... but this is a very serious thread, let's stick to opinions and speculation.

 

Aye Aye Captain 

[mnstang]

3 hours ago, Sled_Hed said:

The only way clubs lose funding is if registration drops way off other than a few grants for equipment etc.

I'm sure they can "redirect the funding" if they want to 

[AK440]

Anyone who’s been paying even a little bit of attention can tell that racing doesn’t matter and it’s all about mountain sleds. Climate change has reduced the riding season in many areas of the Midwest where the majority of sleds are sold. People now ride much less becuase they have to make long and expensive trips out west to find good and reliable snow. The advances in mountain sleds are a result of this market shift. 
 

In 5-10 years sled racing in all forms will have declined to such a degree that  people will look back at today all misty eyed about how good things were. But in the here and now, guys who prefer trail/bump sleds will say things were way better in the 90’s-00’s when there was so much advancement with suspension and then rider forward ergos. 
 

The end result will continue to be fewer and fewer new sleds being sold every year.

[awful knawful]

9 hours ago, HSR said:

You ever put 200 miles on nice groomed trails in a day and not meet one single sled all day?? 

If you REALLY want to sled paradise, PM me. I'll tell ya where to go 

I love riding during the week. Shift work makes it possible. I rarely ride on the weekend.

[Crnr2Crnr]

7 hours ago, AK440 said:

Anyone who’s been paying even a little bit of attention can tell that racing doesn’t matter and it’s all about mountain sleds. Climate change has reduced the riding season in many areas of the Midwest where the majority of sleds are sold. People now ride much less becuase they have to make long and expensive trips out west to find good and reliable snow. The advances in mountain sleds are a result of this market shift. 
 

In 5-10 years sled racing in all forms will have declined to such a degree that  people will look back at today all misty eyed about how good things were. But in the here and now, guys who prefer trail/bump sleds will say things were way better in the 90’s-00’s when there was so much advancement with suspension and then rider forward ergos. 
 

The end result will continue to be fewer and fewer new sleds being sold every year.

SX racing participation numbers have actually gone up, believe it or not.  IDK about XC #'s. 

In total, for Winter 2021-22, there were 130,644 new snowmobiles sold worldwide, a decline of 2% from the strong year prior.

 

104,764 in North America, of which:

 

53,821 were sold in United States

50,943 sold in Canada

0 in Mexico (apparently they’ve had a number of bad snow years)

25,880 in Europe and Russia, a 10% increase from the year before, of which:

 

3736 new sleds sold in Finland

8671 in Sweden

To compare with sales numbers from earlier years, see the associated stories about new snowmobiles sold in: Winter 2020-21; Winter 2019-20; and Winter 2018-19.

https://sleddermag.com/how-many-snowmobiles-sold-winter-2022/

 

 

[Sled_Hed]

8 hours ago, mnstang said:

I'm sure they can "redirect the funding" if they want to 

True, as long as they can pass it through state legislature and house.

[krom]

Can't believe this is even a discussion.

in the last 30 years the only reason anyone outside of the sport knows it exists is snowcross.

Without it, all sleds would still be ass draggers, have narrow running boards with rolled edges, and 80's style bars/bar pads.

Blair Morgan standing up on his ZR is the reason for wide running boards, hooked handle bars, and the REV.

[krom]

21 hours ago, mnstang said:

I don't see why the government would close public property to snowmobiles because of private property issues.  That is basically just a snowmobile ban at that point.  I don't think that will happen, there are many areas where that is how people travel around in winter and certain economies depend on snowmobile where the government won't do that.  

It's alot easier for a property owner to just deny access and possibly close down a trail.

 

Here 99% of trails are on private property, The tree huggers who haven't ever set foot in on any of the land work hard to keep sleds off of state land.  They have sued the DEC and won in court to prevent trails from being built, and even closed trails.  They, or the far away court that decides the matter doesn't give a shit about the locals, or economy.  

You're insane if you don't think it can happen there.

Property owners are getting sick of loud exhaust, and off trail excursions.  This is made worse by all the jersy/nyc assholes who have been buying up property and posting it for no reason.

If someone who only has a hundred yards of trail on their property gets pissed, it can close a main corridor for the season, if not forever.  Re-routing a trail is an enormous task, land owners have no incentive at all to open up their property, and you can be sure that the neighbor who just closed his down, is chewing their ear off about how they would be stupid to allow sleds.

Edited December 17, 2022 by krom

[Not greg b]

14 minutes ago, krom said:

 

Here 99% of trails are on private property, The tree huggers who haven't ever set foot in on any of the land work hard to keep sleds off of state land.  They have sued the DEC and won in court to prevent trails from being built, and even closed trails.  They, or the far away court that decides the matter doesn't give a shit about the locals, or economy.  

You're insane if you don't think it can happen there.

Property owners are getting sick of loud exhaust, and off trail excursions.  This is made worse by all the jersy/nyc assholes who have been buying up property and posting it for no reason.

If someone who only has a hundred yards of trail on their property gets pissed, it can close a main corridor for the season, if not forever.  Re-routing a trail is an enormous task, land owners have no incentive at all to open up their property, and you can be sure that the neighbor who just closed his down, is chewing their ear off about how they would be stupid to allow sleds.

Yep look at this shit. They want to limit boat speed along the whole coast because of whales 

https://www.sportfishingmag.com/news/recreational-fishing-and-boating-groups-want-pause-right-whale-strike-reduction/

 

[EvilBird]

51 minutes ago, krom said:

 

Here 99% of trails are on private property, The tree huggers who haven't ever set foot in on any of the land work hard to keep sleds off of state land.  They have sued the DEC and won in court to prevent trails from being built, and even closed trails.  They, or the far away court that decides the matter doesn't give a shit about the locals, or economy.  

You're insane if you don't think it can happen there.

Property owners are getting sick of loud exhaust, and off trail excursions.  This is made worse by all the jersy/nyc assholes who have been buying up property and posting it for no reason.

If someone who only has a hundred yards of trail on their property gets pissed, it can close a main corridor for the season, if not forever.  Re-routing a trail is an enormous task, land owners have no incentive at all to open up their property, and you can be sure that the neighbor who just closed his down, is chewing their ear off about how they would be stupid to allow sleds.

Yep VT is having the same issues.

Hell even read a big section of trail into a town in ME got shut down recently from land owner being pissed. 

Its happening everywhere only a matter of time 

[AK440]

1 hour ago, krom said:

Can't believe this is even a discussion.

in the last 30 years the only reason anyone outside of the sport knows it exists is snowcross.

Without it, all sleds would still be ass draggers, have narrow running boards with rolled edges, and 80's style bars/bar pads.

Blair Morgan standing up on his ZR is the reason for wide running boards, hooked handle bars, and the REV.

Sounds like you don’t spend much time on or have taken notice of what gets posted on social media or what the OEM’s ambassadors ride. It’s far and above mountain sleds, mountain scenery, deep powder, bow ties, huge air and hill climbs. Maybe sno-x seems big in your area but it isn’t a thing in the rest of the world. If it was so big of a deal then why’d the X-games drop it? 

[Deephaven]

1 hour ago, Not greg b said:

Yep look at this shit. They want to limit boat speed along the whole coast because of whales 

What are women from WI doing up and down the whole coast?

[krom]

6 minutes ago, AK440 said:

Sounds like you don’t spend much time on or have taken notice of what gets posted on social media or what the OEM’s ambassadors ride. It’s far and above mountain sleds, mountain scenery, deep powder, bow ties, huge air and hill climbs. Maybe sno-x seems big in your area but it isn’t a thing in the rest of the world. If it was so big of a deal then why’d the X-games drop it? 

it might be whats cool now, but none of that has "advanced the sport" a fraction of what I mentioned did.

Even the mountain sleds would still be ass dragers if not for blair on his zr

As a matter of fact, the media blitz on "free riding" is going kill the sport.  going off trail is the #1 or #2 reason trails are shut down.  No trails=no sleds.  The mountain segment isn't near big enough to keep any manufacture in business.

Edited December 17, 2022 by krom

[AK440]

4 minutes ago, krom said:

it might be whats cool now, but none of that has "advanced the sport" a fraction of what I mentioned did.

Even the mountain sleds would still be ass dragers if not for blair on his zr

I don’t disagree. Back then mountain sleds were just narrower ski stance, 136” paddle track versions of trail sleds before the REV. The point I was making is that sno-x isn’t doing anything for the advancement of the sport nowadays. Look at Polaris, they are racing an upgraded version of an almost 20 year old machine. The bulkhead is the same as the IQR that came out in the fall of ‘04. They are still using the same basic 600R motor that has been around since ‘08. Cat is on what year 10 or 11 of the Procross? Doo is the only one changing their chassis but it’s development is driven by mountain sled design and sales.

 

 

 

 

[AK440]

8 hours ago, Crnr2Crnr said:

SX racing participation numbers have actually gone up, believe it or not.  IDK about XC #'s. 

In total, for Winter 2021-22, there were 130,644 new snowmobiles sold worldwide, a decline of 2% from the strong year prior.

 

104,764 in North America, of which:

 

53,821 were sold in United States

50,943 sold in Canada

0 in Mexico (apparently they’ve had a number of bad snow years)

25,880 in Europe and Russia, a 10% increase from the year before, of which:

 

3736 new sleds sold in Finland

8671 in Sweden

To compare with sales numbers from earlier years, see the associated stories about new snowmobiles sold in: Winter 2020-21; Winter 2019-20; and Winter 2018-19.

https://sleddermag.com/how-many-snowmobiles-sold-winter-2022/

 

 

Sled sales have been plugging along in a gradual decline for years. The pandemic briefly bumped them up but now that inflation created sky high prices for new sleds, the decline will continue.

 

[Badger**]

20 minutes ago, Deephaven said:

What are women from WI doing up and down the whole coast?

Apparently the most beautiful women come from Wisconsin and she is a nuclear engineer, put that in your spank bank you retard. 

 

 

 

Edited December 17, 2022 by Badger**

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, AK440 said:

I don’t disagree. Back then mountain sleds were just narrower ski stance, 136” paddle track versions of trail sleds before the REV. The point I was making is that sno-x isn’t doing anything for the advancement of the sport nowadays. Look at Polaris, they are racing an upgraded version of an almost 20 year old machine. The bulkhead is the same as the IQR that came out in the fall of ‘04. They are still using the same basic 600R motor that has been around since ‘08. Cat is on what year 10 or 11 of the Procross? Doo is the only one changing their chassis but it’s development is driven by mountain sled design and sales.

 

 

 

 

You can't build trail suspensions in the mountains anymore than you can develop a good mountain sled on a groomed trail. What the factory learns from sno-x/ xcountry racing is what they use to develop trail sleds. Don't be so daft. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Badger** said:

Apparently the most beautiful women come from Wisconsin and she is a nuclear engineer, put that in your spank bank you retard. 

 

 

 

Will you take your bullshit following Deephaven around somewhere else please? The men are talking about sleds in here.

[Badger**]

1 minute ago, HSR said:

Will you take your bullshit following Deephaven around somewhere else please? The men are talking about sleds in here.

Following around  Pot calling Steve?  

• 

  HSR

  5 hours ago

[Guest]

Just now, Badger** said:

Following around  Pot calling Steve?  

• 

  HSR

  5 hours ago

Take your bullshit somewhere else I said. It's not needed and we don't need you wrecking this thread.

[Badger**]

Just now, HSR said:

Take your bullshit somewhere else I said. It's not needed and we don't need you wrecking this thread.

STFU Steve.  Don't you have some halls or closets to go check. Steve is my follower

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, AK440 said:

Sled sales have been plugging along in a gradual decline for years. The pandemic briefly bumped them up but now that inflation created sky high prices for new sleds, the decline will continue.

 

Man that graph is spot on. Sledding around here from 95-02 was crazy fun.Everyone and their dog had a sled and used them as often as they could.Our club was at it's peak for members and our trails were awesome and the Police were not existent anywhere. Just don't pull through town after 11 pm.

[AK440]

16 minutes ago, HSR said:

You can't build trail suspensions in the mountains anymore than you can develop a good mountain sled on a groomed trail. What the factory learns from sno-x/ xcountry racing is what they use to develop trail sleds. Don't be so daft. 

What is so different on an Axys or Maytrx mountain sled compared to a trail sled? The chassis are the same except for tunnel length. Then they bolt on either mountain or trail specific suspension parts. Hell, go back to the first Pro-ride chassis, it started with the abortion called the Rush but it found success when a long, traditional tunnel and mountain specific skid was installed. Mountain sled sales of the Pro drove development. Now look at the Maytrx, it was created for mountain riding, not trail riding. Same as the Doo G4 and G5. Cat’s new design is taking far more design queues and mountain specific parts from the mountain sled market than the trail sled side. This article confirms both what I remembered and saw in my area with sno-x. It peaked in ‘05 and has been in general decline ever since. Sure it might bump up a little now and again but it’s not coming back anytime soon. The general riding public can far more relate to or dream about riding in beautiful mountain peaks than spending a shitload on money to stand around freezing your ass off all day long at a sno-x track to ride maybe 3 times for 10 minutes each.

If sno-X was still driving development Polaris wouldn’t still be racing their limited build, 19 year old sno-x specific IQR/600R chassis.

THE REEVOLUTION OF RACE SLEDS

 

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I give credit to Ski-Doo for starting a frill-stripping trend in the factory specials of the era with the introduction of the 1998 MXZ X 440 – a purpose-built snocross sled that was less trail-friendly. They removed unnecessary features from the sleds to save weight. First to go was oil injection and paint in some areas to shed a few pounds.  
By the early 2000s, track lugs began to grow and compression ratios were climbing. Not only did you need to pre-mix, but 110 octane leaded race gas became the norm at the tracks. The last “dual-purpose” Cat was the first “Firecat” racer, the 2002 ZR 440 racer. With a 1.25-inch lug track and an oil injected motor, that could be used in cross country AND snocross while still sufficient for trail riding. But for 2003 the Cat 440 had a 1.5-inch lug, reduced cooling capacity and a race gas only motor. Cat was kind enough to offer a cooling kit, however. For 2004 the track lug grew to 1.7-inch while the gas tank shrunk to 5 gallons and the chassis and body work was 440 only. That year was also when resale bit the dust on many of the snocross-specific sleds. Cutting edge race machines were creeping up in price while losing their resale value to trail riders and race enthusiasts because you had to fabricate not only larger fuel tanks for some sleds, but add cooling capacity and either re-curve the ignition or machine the heads for lower compression.
wonder years

I consider 2005 the peak of snocross, not just in the number of competitors and spectators, but that was the year I felt the three domestic manufacturers reached “race sled parity.” All three 440 racers were about on even footing. Cat kept tweaking the Sno Pro 440 to catch up to the REV racer and Polaris released the very competitive 440 IQ racer.  

That said, the Ski-Doo was probably the easiest to convert to a trail sled with a larger fuel tank available and interchangeable power domes. The Cat and Polaris were nearly on par as far as being as challenging as one another to convert. 

Eventually a cottage industry grew for those diehards wanting the high power-to-weight ratio and exclusivity of a trail converted 440. Creative Composites was a first to mold a larger trail-size tank for the 2004-07 Cat 440s, and others marketed trail coolers and machined heads.  

Unfortunately, this did little for the racers stuck with sleds worth less than half their initial cost at the end of the season. Demand had dropped off so much that Cat built very few 440 racers by 2007. But, again, change was in the air.

Although cross country racing had increased the displacement limit to 600cc years before, snocross hung onto the 440cc limit for the stock class, and 800cc for the open class mods. In 2006 the open mods lowered the limit to 600cc, undoubtedly encouraged by insurability. 

Finally, in 2008 the stock snocross classes were bumped up to 600cc ending the reign of the 100+ hp 440s. Cat released a 600 Sno Pro snocross sled that could be adapted to cross country with factory available parts like a shorter 1.25-inch lug track, a larger fuel tank and clutch set up. Polaris and Ski-Doo both fitted new 600cc motors into their race chassis allowing them to be dual purpose.

By 2009 some of the manufacturers were offering both snocross and cross country versions of their race sleds, assuring parts were available to convert the snocross-specific sleds back to general use. This factory support helped ensure the machines had resale value and allowed the sleds to be used for either type of racing, or repurposed for the trail at the end of their racing career.  
In many ways, it’s almost “Back to the Future” with many multi-purpose race sleds now being sold. This is how the first race sleds lived on. The purpose-built oval sleds of the ’70s and ’80s had no value off the track until the collectors rediscovered them. Also vintage racing has taken off recently which helps the sales of some vintage race sleds.
The new breed of dual-purpose racers look to have a long and useful life span in retirement.

 

 

 

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https://www.snowest.com/2014/12/the-reevolution-of-race-sleds

 

 

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, AK440 said:

What is so different on an Axys or Maytrx mountain sled compared to a trail sled? The chassis are the same except for tunnel length. Then they bolt on either mountain or trail specific suspension parts. Hell, go back to the first Pro-ride chassis, it started with the abortion called the Rush but it found success when a long, traditional tunnel and mountain specific skid was installed. Mountain sled sales of the Pro drove development. Now look at the Maytrx, it was created for mountain riding, not trail riding

So many things my post would be longer than yours. Surprised you aren't aware of all the differences. Same coat same person to you I guess.

When the 2010 Rush came out for the trails they already had mountain specific sleds.

How many trail sleds run belt drive? Why do only mountain sleds have a recall on the brake system? Why are different drive belts used on some axys/matryx sleds of the same displacement from trail to mountain? These should all be easy for you to answer.