Snocross 2023...

[racinfarmer]

22 minutes ago, AK440 said:

I’m not sure how much clearer things can be to show it’s demise? Does Cat even have a presence in sno-x anymore? The beginning of the end is it’s no longer featured at the X-games. It never recovered from that. More and more large, long time teams have quit the sport since COVID. The number of racer entries keeps declining. Sno-x can’t even attract a big enough audience that anyone wants to sponsor it so it can to be televised. They now require people to pay a fee to stream races. Yeah, that’s the way you build an audience and attract new sponsors. Sled development has slowed to the point that Polaris is still racing the same revised and improved sled that was introduced in the fall of ‘04. That’s 20 fricking years ago! 
 

Very, very few everyday sledders care about racing much less sno-x racing. Things go in phases and sno-x is phasing out more and more every year.

Give it a year or three and we'll see what the economy does.

[mnstang]

11 hours ago, AK440 said:

I’m not sure how much clearer things can be to show it’s demise? Does Cat even have a presence in sno-x anymore? The beginning of the end is it’s no longer featured at the X-games. It never recovered from that. More and more large, long time teams have quit the sport since COVID. The number of racer entries keeps declining. Sno-x can’t even attract a big enough audience that anyone wants to sponsor it so it can to be televised. They now require people to pay a fee to stream races. Yeah, that’s the way you build an audience and attract new sponsors. Sled development has slowed to the point that Polaris is still racing the same revised and improved sled that was introduced in the fall of ‘04. That’s 20 fricking years ago! 
 

Very, very few everyday sledders care about racing much less sno-x racing. Things go in phases and sno-x is phasing out more and more every year.

I can't get past the huge money in the sport for such an amateur looking effort.  Tracks, teams, etc, it all looks like county fair level efforts but they're big money teams which just makes it all worse.  It's like if a bunch of rich guys got together and are playing racing.  For those tracks to be considered national level and these big $ teams all travel to them and people watch it all, blows me away.

[Not greg b]

22 hours ago, AK440 said:

As I posted months ago, sno-x is a dying soon to be dead sport. I could not care less if it goes away. The sleds they currently run have nothing to do with what consumers ride. The OEM’s should use the money saved from racing to lower the price of new sleds.

 

The Sno cross racing budget will have zero effect on the price of new sleds to the consumers if it went away. 

[AK440]

4 hours ago, mnstang said:

I can't get past the huge money in the sport for such an amateur looking effort.  Tracks, teams, etc, it all looks like county fair level efforts but they're big money teams which just makes it all worse.  It's like if a bunch of rich guys got together and are playing racing.  For those tracks to be considered national level and these big $ teams all travel to them and people watch it all, blows me away.

I agree. This past winter I was watching some YouTube channel that was doing videos in the pits of the races and I was blown away by the size and amenities in the  big rig trailers. Then I looked up how many people were in each class and none of that made any sense to me. Then I watched old sno-x videos from the late 90’s and early 00’s and the tracks looked really cool, the racing was way better and there were a lot more names and brands involved. I’ve been around sno-x since it took off and now it’s lingering death. I remember when it was really popular where I live and I even competed in a few races in the 00’s but it died out around ‘09.

 

The sales numbers for new sleds simply are not there for this form of racing to continue. Add in the fact the most popular sleds are mountain and crossover machines all made for deep snow…. What does sno-x offer to the OEM’s or the general riding public? 

[Crnr2Crnr]

for people who aren't really interested in Snocross there sure are a few here that enjoy complaining about it, constantly.   

precisely where can one find the 2023 Iron Dog race footage... as an example ?   

 

[mnstang]

2 hours ago, Crnr2Crnr said:

for people who aren't really interested in Snocross there sure are a few here that enjoy complaining about it, constantly.   

precisely where can one find the 2023 Iron Dog race footage... as an example ?   

 

I wasn't complaining, just giving my opinion.

[racinfarmer]

On 7/4/2023 at 2:45 PM, AK440 said:

I agree. This past winter I was watching some YouTube channel that was doing videos in the pits of the races and I was blown away by the size and amenities in the  big rig trailers. Then I looked up how many people were in each class and none of that made any sense to me. Then I watched old sno-x videos from the late 90’s and early 00’s and the tracks looked really cool, the racing was way better and there were a lot more names and brands involved. I’ve been around sno-x since it took off and now it’s lingering death. I remember when it was really popular where I live and I even competed in a few races in the 00’s but it died out around ‘09.

 

The sales numbers for new sleds simply are not there for this form of racing to continue. Add in the fact the most popular sleds are mountain and crossover machines all made for deep snow…. What does sno-x offer to the OEM’s or the general riding public? 

Entertainment, engagement, and advertising.  

That being said, I do not think there are many sno-x fans that aren't snowmobiliers, or people who randomly show up at a race and go and buy a new sled a few weeks later.

[racinfarmer]

Trying to decide what this means.

Quote

The first of what is expected to be many dominos out of the Polaris camp fell over the 4th of July holiday as Hentges Racing announced their decision to move on from national snocross after 23 years in the sport.

 

[Not greg b]

1 hour ago, racinfarmer said:

Trying to decide what this means.

 

Probably owner contract negotiations coming up. I am going to guess the older teams will go away and new teams are going to come into play. A lot of the current teams have been around a long time and I can see the owners wanting to get out of it as they reach retirement age. 

[racinfarmer]

24 minutes ago, Not greg b said:

Probably owner contract negotiations coming up. I am going to guess the older teams will go away and new teams are going to come into play. A lot of the current teams have been around a long time and I can see the owners wanting to get out of it as they reach retirement age. 

I'm not even sure who all fields pro riders anymore.

[Crnr2Crnr]

9 hours ago, racinfarmer said:

Trying to decide what this means.

 

what do most things come down to in life?

💰 💰 💰 

 

[AK440]

I don’t see how there is any money to be made competing in sno-x at the national level.

[Not greg b]

1 hour ago, AK440 said:

I don’t see how there is any money to be made competing in sno-x at the national level.

They don’t make all their money from the OEM. They have multiple sponsors and do other things beside racing Sno cross for those sponsors. Tucker hibberr is a prime example. He made all his money from monster energy, not arctic cat even though cat more than likely paid him well. On the manufacturer side racing typically falls under the marketing budget and usually a percentage of sales. We will use Polaris for example. Their sales have slowed down the last year or so. Now marketing has less money to work with. Marking it is going to be looking into where they can get the most touches per dollar. That area right now is social media/influencers/on line presence and they will spend majority of the budget there. Trade shows and racing of any kind get the least amount of touches and they will pull money from those events in a heartbeat to keep the other projects running at full strength.

[krom]

7 minutes ago, Not greg b said:

They don’t make all their money from the OEM. They have multiple sponsors and do other things beside racing Sno cross for those sponsors. Tucker hibberr is a prime example. He made all his money from monster energy, not arctic cat even though cat more than likely paid him well. On the manufacturer side racing typically falls under the marketing budget and usually a percentage of sales. We will use Polaris for example. Their sales have slowed down the last year or so. Now marketing has less money to work with. Marking it is going to be looking into where they can get the most touches per dollar. That area right now is social media/influencers/on line presence and they will spend majority of the budget there. Trade shows and racing of any kind get the least amount of touches and they will pull money from those events in a heartbeat to keep the other projects running at full strength.

Lots of AC folks are going to be disappointed this fall, when they see the show schedule

[Crnr2Crnr]

2 hours ago, AK440 said:

I don’t see how there is any money to be made competing in sno-x at the national level.

same way as most forms of racing... spend $5m and hope to win $1m 

sponsor dollars and the wealthy go big budget racing, not pissants such as you or I 

45 minutes ago, krom said:

Lots of AC folks are going to be disappointed this fall, when they see the show schedule

they blew their wad marketing sleds they couldn't manufacturer... for a start.

what else have you got?

[Not greg b]

1 hour ago, krom said:

Lots of AC folks are going to be disappointed this fall, when they see the show schedule

 that does not surprise me. Cat could reach more way people in a few hours putting a 1 minute video on social media on how to rope start a catalyst vs spending 10s of thousands of dollars to attend a show for the weekend and not get that many people coming through. 

[AK440]

1 hour ago, Not greg b said:

 that does not surprise me. Cat could reach more way people in a few hours putting a 1 minute video on social media on how to rope start a catalyst vs spending 10s of thousands of dollars to attend a show for the weekend and not get that many people coming through. 

I’d not thought about it i that way but it makes a ton of sense from an economic point of view. The vast majority of “influencers” or sled ambassadors I can’t stand. I guess the general snowmobile public can’t see through their BS. At least with racers there is real talent and you can see whether the sled works as advertised or not. Way too many me too ambassadors hawking whatever discounted crap they get as the best thing ever. 
 

But, I can see how that’s a much cheaper, easier way for an OEM to advertise their sleds. The social media aspect alone drives the final mail into the sno-x coffin. Seems like mountain riding ambassadors are the most popular thing going right now.

[racinfarmer]

13 hours ago, Crnr2Crnr said:

what do most things come down to in life?

💰 💰 💰 

 

What does a pro win in ISOC pay?  I heard at one time it was $10k.

3 hours ago, AK440 said:

I don’t see how there is any money to be made competing in sno-x at the national level.

I don't think there is.  Have to pay for the hauler, sleds, riders, crew, travel costs, spares, shop, etc.  I just don't see how it adds up to not be in the red.  

2 hours ago, Not greg b said:

They don’t make all their money from the OEM. They have multiple sponsors and do other things beside racing Sno cross for those sponsors. Tucker hibberr is a prime example. He made all his money from monster energy, not arctic cat even though cat more than likely paid him well. On the manufacturer side racing typically falls under the marketing budget and usually a percentage of sales. We will use Polaris for example. Their sales have slowed down the last year or so. Now marketing has less money to work with. Marking it is going to be looking into where they can get the most touches per dollar. That area right now is social media/influencers/on line presence and they will spend majority of the budget there. Trade shows and racing of any kind get the least amount of touches and they will pull money from those events in a heartbeat to keep the other projects running at full strength.

I doubt any of the teams make money, even pulling in sponsorship money.  

[Crnr2Crnr]

8 minutes ago, racinfarmer said:

What does a pro win in ISOC pay?  I heard at one time it was $10k.

I don't think there is.  Have to pay for the hauler, sleds, riders, crew, travel costs, spares, shop, etc.  I just don't see how it adds up to not be in the red.  

I doubt any of the teams make money, even pulling in sponsorship money.  

 

 

 

[racinfarmer]

19 minutes ago, Crnr2Crnr said:

 

 

 

At some point, your write off becomes a hassle and the juice isn't worth the squeeze.  

[Not greg b]

40 minutes ago, racinfarmer said:

What does a pro win in ISOC pay?  I heard at one time it was $10k.

I don't think there is.  Have to pay for the hauler, sleds, riders, crew, travel costs, spares, shop, etc.  I just don't see how it adds up to not be in the red.  

I doubt any of the teams make money, even pulling in sponsorship money.  

They are making money at it. They wouldn’t loose money for 23 years doing it. I also think the cost of doing it at the top pro level is not as much as people make it out to be. I am willing to bet most of those big rigs are rented/leased for the season which would be the biggest expense. 

[racinfarmer]

11 minutes ago, Not greg b said:

They are making money at it. They wouldn’t loose money for 23 years doing it. I also think the cost of doing it at the top pro level is not as much as people make it out to be. I am willing to bet most of those big rigs are rented/leased for the season which would be the biggest expense. 

Mmmmm, I have my doubts if you remove self-sponsorship from the teams.  

[AK440]

35 minutes ago, Not greg b said:

They are making money at it. They wouldn’t loose money for 23 years doing it. I also think the cost of doing it at the top pro level is not as much as people make it out to be. I am willing to bet most of those big rigs are rented/leased for the season which would be the biggest expense. 

Seems like if teams were making any money at it the sport would be at least maintaining if not growing. Look at ATV racing in the 80’s, it was huge! I’ve listened to interviews with racers from that era on ATV podcast and they made good money during the 80’s. Now look at ATV racing… it’s dead for MX. They still do XC races but their market very similar the to current declining snowmobile sales. You don’t see sport quads anymore, people don’t buy them. But, SXS racing seems to be the new thing and that corresponds with how popular SxS’s are. 
 

Sno-x is dead for a multitude of reasons and it’s hard to make a case for the need for sno-x helping to sell consumer sleds when they aren’t racing what they sell. Hell, people were writing about this back in ‘10.

https://www.supertraxmag.com/features/motorhead-is-racing-relevant/
 

[Palu49]

2 hours ago, Not greg b said:

They are making money at it. They wouldn’t loose money for 23 years doing it. I also think the cost of doing it at the top pro level is not as much as people make it out to be. I am willing to bet most of those big rigs are rented/leased for the season which would be the biggest expense. 

Zandstra and a few other teams have had their rigs for sale in the last few years. I pass the Boss rig all the time sitting in the middle of a field all summer. Decked out flat top 389 and a 53’ stacker to go out and finish last in every pro lite race doesn’t seem super profitable.

[fortune46x]

As far as payouts from the series goes : https://snocross.com/national/payouts/

Racers make money from the OEM's contingency program - skidoo , polaris and cat all pay out based on performance , years ago I was told a pro lite final win was 9k (I'm sure this has changed)

Teams make money from sponsors , get parts budgets, and lets face it - teams like Hentges, Scheuring and others all use it as a business expense for their main source of income which isnt racing. I do however see oems budgets getting thinner and thinner as they redirect their marketing money to more viable markets that are not snowmobile related (polaris just put up 25k into a Youth sxs class for payouts with champ offroad).

The brand ambassador thing is detrimental to any racing - give a person 20% off a sled to make them your social media whore and bam why would you invest into any form of racing when you can go pennies on the dollar to a social media person that has 25k followers or otherwise. Red Bull is doing this exact thing with multiple people now vs having actual sponsored racers - they give them the right to have the helmet (redbull is litigious over their logo - the levalle sleds cannot be sold with it on them)  , free product and clothing and bam exposure happens at low cost.

As far as snocross dying , when I started with isoc in 2017 we would have 70-80 races a weekend , now its constantly over 100 races. The pro class has shrunk but that's due to sport lite, sport, and pro lite not having a proper advancement requirement and the oems are using those classes to bump championship numbers up for marketing. If you listen to episode 2 and 3 of the vignette postcase found here Levi and Robbie hit the nails on the head with what the sport needs to do to regain a full gate at the pro level. If you don't go to a race to see the classes that don't make it on the live stream and just watch the pro class I'd fully understand why anyone would think that. Don't get me wrong its definitely not what Wsa/Wpsa was for racer numbers but you also had 4 manufactures with oem factory teams not satellite teams that they have now.

Viewership is well into the 6 figures on race weekends since going to Flo and I know I have had a ton of people that never went to a race/watched it on tv that are dirt track and pro offroad truck guys now are tuning in so the cross promotion utilized with flo is working.

As Steve Scheuring said on social media - the sky isn't falling.