motonoggin Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Highmark said: Are you looking in the mirror when you write this? How are you so different than any other business owner? As for the rest. From the beginning of time man has worked to make things easier and more efficient to do. This goes from our daily lives to the business world. I'm sure you have done things inside your own business that makes you more productive or able to produce a higher quality product yet you come on here and preach what you do. Its really laughable. You are correct, virtually everything is produced from labor. What your chart fails to recognize is the labor costs of those that design and build the machines that make the worker or company more productive. It only takes into account the hourly worker in the end. While I will never argue that we've lost too many good paying blue collar jobs what we fail to recognize is the increase in jobs that pay extremely well to make those gains. The WORKER has some responsibility to change with the times. Make their skills more valuable. This is the case no matter what type of economy or govt you have. I wouldn't doubt in a communist country a hard working, highly intelligent person would never be able to be as successful as in a free market Democracy or Democratic Republic but I'd bet they would have opportunities beyond someone with less skills and work ethic. Kind of like Unions in the US. Your pipe dream of everyone's labor is equal is just completely false. If you really believed in that everyone at your company would make exactly the same.....INCLUDING YOU. You are not properly stating my positions. If you would argue against what I have said, instead of what you think I said, I'd appreciate it. I never said everyone's labor should be equal. What I have said is that workers should not be forced to choose between wage slavery or starvation. They should also not have the value of their labor stolen by those who produce nothing. 14 minutes ago, Angry ginger said: as i have pointed out before the productivity gains did not come from workers working harder but from technology to which the workers entitled to nothing as they did not make the investment in tech. very few jobs are harder now than they were 30-40-50 years ago. Yes that technology has eliminated many but again you need to add value to the employer that is the tradeoff for $ and if you can;t you get less or you go. You two act as if workers are just computers that can have new skills and knowledge uploaded to their brains ala The Matrix. You demand these people work full time, pay taxes, buy homes and cars, etc.You also expect them to pay to go to school every 5 years or so and attain another skill that will likely be obsolete 5 years later, just before they've paid off their student loans from learning said new skills. You're also expecting them to believe that somehow stagnant wages are their own fault, when in reality the drive to replace expensive human labor with cheap human labor or technology is what has stagnated wages, not a massive lack of skills. I feel like I need to once again point out how this inherent contradiction in capitalism will provide the conditions of its downfall. Edited January 10, 2017 by motonoggin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racer254 Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 Do you realize that as a company I would only hire someone if they actually added VALUE to the company. How hard is that to understand? Do you believe you DESERVE a wage or do you believe you need to EARN it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted January 10, 2017 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted January 10, 2017 25 minutes ago, racer254 said: Do you realize that as a company I would only hire someone if they actually added VALUE to the company. How hard is that to understand? Do you believe you DESERVE a wage or do you believe you need to EARN it? You really need to ask him that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 28 minutes ago, racer254 said: Do you realize that as a company I would only hire someone if they actually added VALUE to the company. How hard is that to understand? Do you believe you DESERVE a wage or do you believe you need to EARN it? The only way to save capitalism from itself is to once again tie wages to productivity. Do you think this will happen given the limitless greed of capital we witness daily? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted January 10, 2017 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted January 10, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, motonoggin said: You are not properly stating my positions. If you would argue against what I have said, instead of what you think I said, I'd appreciate it. I never said everyone's labor should be equal. What I have said is that workers should not be forced to choose between wage slavery or starvation. They should also not have the value of their labor stolen by those who produce nothing. You two act as if workers are just computers that can have new skills and knowledge uploaded to their brains ala The Matrix. You demand these people work full time, pay taxes, buy homes and cars, etc.You also expect them to pay to go to school every 5 years or so and attain another skill that will likely be obsolete 5 years later, just before they've paid off their student loans from learning said new skills. You're also expecting them to believe that somehow stagnant wages are their own fault, when in reality the drive to replace expensive human labor with cheap human labor or technology is what has stagnated wages, not a massive lack of skills. I feel like I need to once again point out how this inherent contradiction in capitalism will provide the conditions of its downfall. I'm not going to go back and find it but if you didn't say it I'm sure many would agree your position often implies it. I've asked you that specifically a number of times and you have avoided it. Remember your comments how everything including land (except yours) should be shared. Yachts, cars whatever. You claimed nobody should own anything then will tell us everyone's labor shouldn't be equal. Well then they will have more. I have to laugh at the bold. Just who are these people you are referring too? Politicians? Teachers? Business owners? Please give us some professions that "produce nothing." I also have to laugh that people are forced to work full time, pay taxes (rich coming from a commie) buy homes and cars, etc. Who exactly forces people to do this? There are plenty of shows on tv about minimalists living in our country. They don't do shit but provide for themselves. Someone who wants more does more to provide that standard of living for them and their family. Don't want to buy a home....don't and rent something. Don't want a car...don't...take the bus. Edited January 10, 2017 by Highmark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 20 minutes ago, Highmark said: I'm not going to go back and find it but if you didn't say it I'm sure many would agree your position often implies it. I've asked you that specifically a number of times and you have avoided it. Remember your comments how everything including land (except yours) should be shared. Yachts, cars whatever. You claimed nobody should own anything then will tell us everyone's labor shouldn't be equal. Well then they will have more. I have to laugh at the bold. Just who are these people you are referring too? Politicians? Teachers? Business owners? Please give us some professions that "produce nothing." I also have to laugh that people are forced to work full time, pay taxes (rich coming from a commie) buy homes and cars, etc. Who exactly forces people to do this? There are plenty of shows on tv about minimalists living in our country. They don't do shit but provide for themselves. Someone who wants more does more to provide that standard of living for them and their family. Don't want to buy a home....don't and rent something. Don't want a car...don't...take the bus. I'm not going to go back and find it, but you said we should gas all the Jews. See how this works? Clearly you are incapable of an honest argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted January 10, 2017 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted January 10, 2017 4 minutes ago, motonoggin said: I'm not going to go back and find it, but you said we should gas all the Jews. See how this works? Clearly you are incapable of an honest argument. Sorry you are wrong on that moto. NEVER have I said that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 8 minutes ago, Highmark said: Sorry you are wrong on that moto. NEVER have I said that. Well, I said you did, so that should be good enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted January 10, 2017 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted January 10, 2017 10 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Well, I said you did, so that should be good enough. This whole post was priceless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zambroski Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 22 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Well, I said you did, so that should be good enough. Well done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racer254 Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 1 hour ago, motonoggin said: The only way to save capitalism from itself is to once again tie wages to productivity. Do you think this will happen given the limitless greed of capital we witness daily? How much do you pay a robot or a self checkout machine? They are pretty productive, but who gets their wages? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momorider Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 1 minute ago, racer254 said: How much do you pay a robot or a self checkout machine? They are pretty productive, but who gets their wages? The programmer and repair men Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 21 minutes ago, Highmark said: This whole post was priceless. Yeah, a bunch of ignoramuses who've never read Marx, much less set foot in a library since PreK story time, trying to define communism to a communist. Priceless indeed. 12 minutes ago, racer254 said: How much do you pay a robot or a self checkout machine? They are pretty productive, but who gets their wages? Congratulations, you've uncovered a major contradiction in capitalism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 13 minutes ago, Momorider said: The programmer and repair men Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racer254 Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 1 minute ago, motonoggin said: Yeah, a bunch of ignoramuses who've never read Marx, much less set foot in a library since PreK story time, trying to define communism to a communist. Priceless indeed. Congratulations, you've uncovered a major contradiction in capitalism. No, I uncovered a major flaw in your way of thinking. But keep on keeping on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted January 10, 2017 Author Share Posted January 10, 2017 Until Moto is willing to live with nothing but the bare necessities of life then he is greedy too. And no, weed isn't a necessity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 1 minute ago, Sludgey said: Until Moto is willing to live with nothing but the bare necessities of life then he is greedy too. And no, weed isn't a necessity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted January 10, 2017 Author Share Posted January 10, 2017 Anything to justify your greed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 2 hours ago, racer254 said: No, I uncovered a major flaw in your way of thinking. But keep on keeping on. OMFG lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momorider Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 Against human nature impossible stupid as fuck ideology Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 6 minutes ago, Momorider said: Against human nature impossible stupid as fuck ideology Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momorider Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 2 minutes ago, motonoggin said: complete Bullfuckingshit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 2 minutes ago, Momorider said: complete Bullfuckingshit Mutual aid is a documented human behavior. Only during periods of scarcity do we resort to self survival habits. Capitalism creates false scarcity on order to extract more profit, and it has the side benefit of reinforcing the desired self survival behavior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted January 11, 2017 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted January 11, 2017 (edited) 15 hours ago, motonoggin said: OMFG lol Who designs, builds and maintains the machines? More machines? Who do you propose sets the guidelines up for what can and cannot be built by a Machine? What level of Commissar makes these decisions? Even you admitted everyone would need to "evolve" for your form of Communism to work. Edited January 11, 2017 by Highmark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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