Crnr2Crnr Posted March 22 Author Share Posted March 22 Just now, mnstang said: Any speed shop company engine kit is going to be a crap shoot at best. People don't understand the level of knowledge, r&d and testing that goes into an OEM engine. BDX/SSI was pumping out the 900 kits for catalyst this year and people were thinking it was an equivalent substitute for the upcoming 858. Even the best "engine guys" have no clue of the considerations the OEM accounts for, especially the Japanese. Not saying things can't be improved on for performance but I'd never slap on complete aftermarket cylinders for example. @hayward disagrees... Black Magic, Speedwerx, D&D all made some cool Cat enhancers, didn't they? I wouldn't ever do it to a brand new sled, but an older sled with some miles you enjoy or love in need of a top end refresh owned or bought reasonably... then maybe¿? The biggest shortcoming with the aftermarket kits is support after the sale years down the road. Example, I almost bought a D&D 602 SP two summers ago for a good price but after doing my rEsEArch to freshen it with 'stock' 600 pistons requires machining to the bottom of the piston which the average guy isn't going to do in his garage and sending the jugs to my friend in PA. So I walked on that one as I already have one of those 'on occasion' sleds but put 5x more miles on the uber reliable stocker as engine parts for that are still readily available and I have a complete spare top end for it (or the m0d) on the shelf... thanks again for that@krom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnstang Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 16 minutes ago, Crnr2Crnr said: @hayward disagrees... Black Magic, Speedwerx, D&D all made some cool Cat enhancers, didn't they? I wouldn't ever do it to a brand new sled, but an older sled with some miles you enjoy or love in need of a top end refresh owned or bought reasonably... then maybe¿? The biggest shortcoming with the aftermarket kits is support after the sale years down the road. Example, I almost bought a D&D 602 SP two summers ago for a good price but after doing my rEsEArch to freshen it with 'stock' 600 pistons requires machining to the bottom of the piston which the average guy isn't going to do in his garage and sending the jugs to my friend in PA. So I walked on that one as I already have one of those 'on occasion' sleds but put 5x more miles on the uber reliable stocker as engine parts for that are still readily available and I have a complete spare top end for it (or the m0d) on the shelf... thanks again for that@krom Enhancers as far as bolt on pipes, heads, etc sure. Maybe even some porting under the right circumstances. But you'd have to be an idiot to run aftermarket big bore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deephaven Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 I bet the Indy Dan solution will last the test. Basically he is using stock 900 parts with billet cylinder head. Not rocket science what he is doing. I would expect better reliability than stock based solely on the fact that instead of factory workers he has real engine builders putting things together. Most kits I am wary of, but think the 9R conversion kit will be fine. Almost makes me want to look for a high mileage 650 that is cheap and do his kit and some new shocks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crnr2Crnr Posted March 22 Author Share Posted March 22 7 minutes ago, mnstang said: Enhancers as far as bolt on pipes, heads, etc sure. Maybe even some porting under the right circumstances. But you'd have to be an idiot to run aftermarket big bore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crnr2Crnr Posted March 22 Author Share Posted March 22 8 minutes ago, Deephaven said: I bet the Indy Dan solution will last the test. Basically he is using stock 900 parts with billet cylinder head. Not rocket science what he is doing. I would expect better reliability than stock based solely on the fact that instead of factory workers he has real engine builders putting things together. Most kits I am wary of, but think the 9R conversion kit will be fine. Almost makes me want to look for a high mileage 650 that is cheap and do his kit and some new shocks. ID has a good rep... Carl's Cycle was the first to make one and I believe what Poo started selling if my memory is correct. https://www.burandtsbackcountryadventure.com/product-page/carls-cycle-900-big-bore-kit-for-polaris-850 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deephaven Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 9 minutes ago, Crnr2Crnr said: ID has a good rep... Carl's Cycle was the first to make one and I believe what Poo started selling if my memory is correct. https://www.burandtsbackcountryadventure.com/product-page/carls-cycle-900-big-bore-kit-for-polaris-850 I expect ID to put out a good product. Being mostly "stock" stuff it should be at least as good as Polaris in that domain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krom Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 1 hour ago, mnstang said: Enhancers as far as bolt on pipes, heads, etc sure. Maybe even some porting under the right circumstances. But you'd have to be an idiot to run aftermarket big bore Depends... A friend of mine has been doing this for a while.. We made mid 160s with a 800 top end on my 600, in 2007. Over the summer of 09, we built a 860ish cc f7 bottom end engine for my 09 sx sled Made mid 180s, with conservative timing and fueling (D&D f9 cylinders with stock f7 stroke) ran it all the way up at 9200 rpm, with a 5500 engagement. Both engines ran issue free till I switched sleds. Now that Ecu tuning is possible, there is no reason for a good tuner to have reliability issues. Hell a good tuner can make a engine more reliable than the factory, since they don't have to worry about epa.. Precision efi tune fixes the detonation that kills 800 ct2 s 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnstang Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 24 minutes ago, krom said: Depends... A friend of mine has been doing this for a while.. We made mid 160s with a 800 top end on my 600, in 2007. Over the summer of 09, we built a 860ish cc f7 bottom end engine for my 09 sx sled Made mid 180s, with conservative timing and fueling (D&D f9 cylinders with stock f7 stroke) ran it all the way up at 9200 rpm, with a 5500 engagement. Both engines ran issue free till I switched sleds. Now that Ecu tuning is possible, there is no reason for a good tuner to have reliability issues. Hell a good tuner can make a engine more reliable than the factory, since they don't have to worry about epa.. Precision efi tune fixes the detonation that kills 800 ct2 s There's way more to engine reliability than just the ecu tune. And there's more downsides with these aftermarket big bores than just reliability Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bontz Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 29 minutes ago, krom said: Hell a good tuner can make a engine more reliable than the factory, since they don't have to worry about epa.. For 2-strokes, this is a huge advantage to the performance shops. The EPA hamstrings the OEM's. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayward Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 3 hours ago, Crnr2Crnr said: @hayward disagrees... I'll never buy anything modded like that again. Learned my lesson. The history on mine don't sound good. Maybe it was one of d$d's test dummy's, seeings as it had one ported and one non-ported cylinders on the damn thing? Or some yayhoo from upstate had their fingers in it and just threw parts at it before I got it to get it to run to sell? I dunno. I might have put 2000ish miles on it before my it went to shit. It didn't help that my kid's had it out beating on it one day here at home and I go to put it away that evening and "hell, this thing's got a clutch problem!" Hood off, there it is, the illustrious jack-shaft bearing is m.i.a. And they road it a while with it gone as it ruined the jack shaft, and of course, both clutches.... So it surely over-reved a time or 30 that day alone.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crnr2Crnr Posted March 22 Author Share Posted March 22 1 minute ago, hayward said: I'll never buy anything modded like that again. Learned my lesson. The history on mine don't sound good. Maybe it was one of d$d's test dummy's, seeings as it had one ported and one non-ported cylinders on the damn thing? Or some yayhoo from upstate had their fingers in it and just threw parts at it before I got it to get it to run to sell? I dunno. I might have put 2000ish miles on it before my it went to shit. It didn't help that my kid's had it out beating on it one day here at home and I go to put it away that evening and "hell, this thing's got a clutch problem!" Hood off, there it is, the illustrious jack-shaft bearing is m.i.a. And they road it a while with it gone as it ruined the jack shaft, and of course, both clutches.... So it surely over-reved a time or 30 that day alone.... that's just bad parenting... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayward Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 1 minute ago, Crnr2Crnr said: that's just bad parenting... well, it was either that or tell them no and they sit in he house watching their phones all day..... Lack of maintenance on my part really. I should have changed that bearing before hand with 4,000ish miles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crnr2Crnr Posted March 22 Author Share Posted March 22 9 minutes ago, hayward said: well, it was either that or tell them no and they sit in he house watching their phones all day..... Lack of maintenance on my part really. I should have changed that bearing before hand with 4,000ish miles. why are you taking ownership for a factory design flaw? shame on Cat for using an undersized conveyor belt bearing on the jackshaft in the first place. ironically, since we're in a Polaris thread, they must've used the same piece of shit bearing on the Maytrx as it's another failure point to be considered about when they're not actually on fire. thankfully Northstar Rick has a fix kit for the bearing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayward Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 3 minutes ago, Crnr2Crnr said: why are you taking ownership for a factory design flaw? shame on Cat for using an undersized conveyor belt bearing on the jackshaft in the first place. ironically, since we're in a Polaris thread, they must've used the same piece of shit bearing on the Maytrx as it's another failure point to be considered about when they're not actually on fire. thankfully Northstar Rick has a fix kit for the bearing. Well, I knew that bearing was an issue that fall before it happened, so technically, it's my fault. But I'd gladly wrap a pitch-fork handle around the engineer's head who came up with that shit design, yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crnr2Crnr Posted March 22 Author Share Posted March 22 4 minutes ago, hayward said: Well, I knew that bearing was an issue that fall before it happened, so technically, it's my fault. But I'd gladly wrap a pitch-fork handle around the engineer's head who came up with that shit design, yes. I've thought about starting a project with you know who to come up with a bigger bearing and cup for that issue but he has enough on his plate. seem to recall @mnstang saying he looked at a few brand new shafts once and they weren't true out of the box, which is another issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tripleflipper Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 4 hours ago, Crnr2Crnr said: 9R that bitch... That's what I'm thinkin. Gives it one more year for improvements and hopefully they slap the 4 year warranty on it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crnr2Crnr Posted March 22 Author Share Posted March 22 1 minute ago, Tripleflipper said: That's what I'm thinkin. Gives it one more year for improvements and hopefully they slap the 4 year warranty on it if we have another winter like this they may as well start giving out five year warranties... on the trail sleds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tripleflipper Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 1 minute ago, Crnr2Crnr said: if we have another winter like this they may as well start giving out five year warranties... on the trail sleds At 325 miles this year they could warranty me for 15 years and probably still be safe 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deephaven Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 2 hours ago, mnstang said: There's way more to engine reliability than just the ecu tune. And there's more downsides with these aftermarket big bores than just reliability What downside to ID's kit? Stock piston, stock parts, billet head. Sounds scary.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnstang Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 59 minutes ago, Deephaven said: What downside to ID's kit? Stock piston, stock parts, billet head. Sounds scary.... I'm not commenting on an iron dog kit. Know nothing about it. I'm speaking on general terms. But it's funny how you're the number one guy afraid of first year oem engines but you're apparently good with a shade tree cobble job. My first post on this topic applies to you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deephaven Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 Just now, mnstang said: I'm not commenting on an iron dog kit. Know nothing about it. I'm speaking on general terms. But it's funny how you're the number one guy afraid of first year oem engines but you're apparently good with a shade tree cobble job. My first post on this topic applies to you Not iron dog, derp. Indy Dan. Not shade tree, not even close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnstang Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 1 minute ago, Deephaven said: Not iron dog, derp. Indy Dan. Not shade tree, not even close. Indy Dan, didn't you just post about a twisted crank from him. I doubt Dan has 1% of the resources and knowledge base of an OEM engine manufacturer when it comes to building an engine. Anyone can bolt some stuff together and sometimes it works, not saying it can't ever work. You guys are touchy about your horsepower heros. Dyno Dan! Lol 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bontz Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 Not my fight, but if you've never been to Dan's shop or spoken with him .. you might be surprised. He's more than a "bolt some stuff together" guy (al la Northstar Rick). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X2700 Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 Hell I don’t think dans been around for awhile?out west i think? dealt with dans years ago when he was in shokopee yet!!! young guy running place now seems pretty knowledgeable. installed couple engines of his now and had him do some crank and cylinder work.so far so good! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crnr2Crnr Posted March 22 Author Share Posted March 22 just be careful what you say about Black Magic or Speedwerx... savvy boys? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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