ELEVATION DOESNT MATTER HERRRRDERRRRR

[ActionfigureJoe]

56 minutes ago, f7ben said:

The first turbo application was an airplane. You’ve been owned and hsr is permaowned  

Ah no. 

[f7ben]

1 minute ago, ActionfigureJoe said:

Ah no. 

6 years after it was patented and not even built yet it was on an aircraft. You’re and idiot 

[ActionfigureJoe]

4 minutes ago, f7ben said:

6 years after it was patented and not even built yet it was on an aircraft. You’re and idiot 

Alfred Buchi, a Swiss engineer, put forward the first plans for a supercharger driven by exhaust gases, and the turbo was born. In 1905, he patented the idea, and in 1915, whilst working as the Chief Engineer for the research wing of Sulzer Brothers, he built the first turbocharged diesel engine.

[f7ben]

Just now, ActionfigureJoe said:

Alfred Buchi, a Swiss engineer, put forward the first plans for a supercharger driven by exhaust gases, and the turbo was born. In 1905, he patented the idea, and in 1915, whilst working as the Chief Engineer for the research wing of Sulzer Brothers, he built the first turbocharged diesel engine.

IT WAS ON A FUCKIN AIRCRAFT IN 1910-11 , ARE YOU FUCKING RETARDED 

[Crnr2Crnr]

Büchi's patents

 

Büchi's patent, No. 204630 received from the Imperial Patent Office of the German Reich on November 6, 1905,[2] describes a "highly supercharged compound engine" with a solution to capture such heat using an "axial compressor, radial piston engine and axial turbine on a common shaft".[3]

 

The idea was simple, however the materials and fuels required for it to function were not yet available.[4] While a later patent (1925) describing "pulse operation for low-pressure supercharging"[5] is considered his landmark, due to Büchi's invention the year 1905 is thus acknowledged as the birth of the turbocharging era. Büchi's principles from 1905 remain the same for turbocharging today. Power and efficiency are improved "by forcing additional air into the cylinders, with the heat from the exhaust gas used to drive the turbine".[3]

 

Sulzer and Brown Boveri

 

Joining Sulzer in 1909, Büchi researched diesel engines while continuing to investigate turbocharging innovations, focusing on large marine applications. In 1911 Sulzer opened an experimental turbocharger plant, and Büchi's first prototype for turbocharged diesel engine was produced in 1915. Intending to mitigate effects of thin air in high altitude for airplane engines, this version did not maintain consistent boost pressure and thus was not well received.[3][6]

 

In 1915 Büchi began a dialog with Brown, Boveri & Cie (BBC) to set up cooperation, though it took them until 1923 to reach an agreement.[7] Büchi went on to lead the Sulzer diesel department during 1918-19.

 

Marine applications

edit

Nearly two decades later Büchi's invention achieved practical application. The first use of turbocharging technology was for large marine engines, when the German Ministry of Transport commissioned the construction of the passenger liners Preussen and Hansestadt Danzig in 1923. Both ships featured twin ten-cylinder diesel engines with output boosted from 1750 to 2500 horsepower by turbochargers designed by Büchi and built under his supervision by Brown Boveri (BBC) (now ABB).[2][8]

Büchi Syndicate

 

Eventually near the end of his tenure at the firm, in 1925 Büchi for the first time succeeded in combining his technology with a diesel engine, increasing efficiency by over 40%,[3] the same year filing Swiss patent number 122 664 under his own name ("Büchi-Duplex turbocharging system").[9] In 1926 he left Sulzer and established a new company known as the "Büchi Syndicate". Büchi headed engineering and customer relations, Swiss Locomotive and Machine Works (SLM) in Winterthur provided engines for testing, and BBC in Baden built turbochargers.[5] The same year Büchi also became Director of SLM.[1]

Two years later Büchi's new, larger turbocharger design yielded improved results, leading to an increase in licensing agreements with engine builders.[5] The Büchi Syndicate stayed together until 1941 when BBC continued turbo-related operations under its own name.[9]  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Büchi#:~:text=While a later patent (1925,the same for turbocharging today.

 

Settled?  

[f7ben]

2 minutes ago, Crnr2Crnr said:

Büchi's patents

 

Büchi's patent, No. 204630 received from the Imperial Patent Office of the German Reich on November 6, 1905,[2] describes a "highly supercharged compound engine" with a solution to capture such heat using an "axial compressor, radial piston engine and axial turbine on a common shaft".[3]

 

The idea was simple, however the materials and fuels required for it to function were not yet available.[4] While a later patent (1925) describing "pulse operation for low-pressure supercharging"[5] is considered his landmark, due to Büchi's invention the year 1905 is thus acknowledged as the birth of the turbocharging era. Büchi's principles from 1905 remain the same for turbocharging today. Power and efficiency are improved "by forcing additional air into the cylinders, with the heat from the exhaust gas used to drive the turbine".[3]

 

Sulzer and Brown Boveri

 

Joining Sulzer in 1909, Büchi researched diesel engines while continuing to investigate turbocharging innovations, focusing on large marine applications. In 1911 Sulzer opened an experimental turbocharger plant, and Büchi's first prototype for turbocharged diesel engine was produced in 1915. Intending to mitigate effects of thin air in high altitude for airplane engines, this version did not maintain consistent boost pressure and thus was not well received.[3][6]

 

In 1915 Büchi began a dialog with Brown, Boveri & Cie (BBC) to set up cooperation, though it took them until 1923 to reach an agreement.[7] Büchi went on to lead the Sulzer diesel department during 1918-19.

 

Marine applications

edit

Nearly two decades later Büchi's invention achieved practical application. The first use of turbocharging technology was for large marine engines, when the German Ministry of Transport commissioned the construction of the passenger liners Preussen and Hansestadt Danzig in 1923. Both ships featured twin ten-cylinder diesel engines with output boosted from 1750 to 2500 horsepower by turbochargers designed by Büchi and built under his supervision by Brown Boveri (BBC) (now ABB).[2][8]

Büchi Syndicate

 

Eventually near the end of his tenure at the firm, in 1925 Büchi for the first time succeeded in combining his technology with a diesel engine, increasing efficiency by over 40%,[3] the same year filing Swiss patent number 122 664 under his own name ("Büchi-Duplex turbocharging system").[9] In 1926 he left Sulzer and established a new company known as the "Büchi Syndicate". Büchi headed engineering and customer relations, Swiss Locomotive and Machine Works (SLM) in Winterthur provided engines for testing, and BBC in Baden built turbochargers.[5] The same year Büchi also became Director of SLM.[1]

Two years later Büchi's new, larger turbocharger design yielded improved results, leading to an increase in licensing agreements with engine builders.[5] The Büchi Syndicate stayed together until 1941 when BBC continued turbo-related operations under its own name.[9]  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Büchi#:~:text=While a later patent (1925,the same for turbocharging today.

 

Settled?  

Are you seriously fucking retarded? Is 1915 later than 1911? Holy fucking shit 

[NaturallyAspirated]

5 hours ago, Rod said:

You’d have to exceed nominal sea level pressure to be charged 

Not necessarily, one could be operating an engine at sea level where relative pressure is low, 930mb, and have a 1 psi positive boost and still be below standard atmosphere with the charge.  The engine could also be designed to exceed standard atmosphere when 1013mb or greater pressure is the starting point.  

The same scenario applies where 3 psi of boost is added at 10,000ft.    That turbo charge would also be below 1013mb or 14.7psi.

Turbo normalization is turbocharging used to match 1013mb of absolute intake pressure. It’s a category of turbocharging.  It includes feedback to keep a constant charge pressure of one atm.  

In common parlance it’s unimportant, and engine that uses exhaust gas to compress incoming air is referred to as turbocharged.  

Neal

[f7ben]

2 hours ago, ActionfigureJoe said:

The first commercial use of turbocharging was in diesels not aircraft. They tinkered with it in some liberty motors, but the mid “20’s saw the first actual application in diesels. The original theory came from the idea that TC could compensate for the lower oxygen levels at altitude. 

First commercial use was 1918 on an aircraft , sorry you’re wrong again 

[f7ben]

2 minutes ago, NaturallyAspirated said:

Not necessarily, one could be operating an engine at sea level where relative pressure is low, 930mb, and have a 1 psi positive boost and still be below standard atmosphere with the charge.  The engine could also be designed to exceed standard atmosphere when 1013mb or greater pressure is the starting point.  

The same scenario applies where 3 psi of boost is added at 10,000ft.    That turbo charge would also be below 1013mb or 14.7psi.

Turbo normalization is turbocharging used to match 1013mb of absolute intake pressure. It’s a category of turbocharging.  It includes feedback to keep a constant charge pressure of one atm.  

In common parlance it’s unimportant, and engine that uses exhaust gas to compress incoming air is referred to as turbocharged.  

Neal

Engines are certified on a dyno and corrected for sea level. If you have a system that is not designed to exceed that power you are not turbocharging. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, f7ben said:

Engines are certified on a dyno and corrected for sea level. If you have a system that is not designed to exceed that power you are not turbocharging. 

Shut up K

[f7ben]

Just now, HSR said:

Shut up K

Admit you were wrong and we can move back to you getting owned on clutching  

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, NaturallyAspirated said:

Not necessarily, one could be operating an engine at sea level where relative pressure is low, 930mb, and have a 1 psi positive boost and still be below standard atmosphere with the charge.  The engine could also be designed to exceed standard atmosphere when 1013mb or greater pressure is the starting point.  

The same scenario applies where 3 psi of boost is added at 10,000ft.    That turbo charge would also be below 1013mb or 14.7psi.

Turbo normalization is turbocharging used to match 1013mb of absolute intake pressure. It’s a category of turbocharging.  It includes feedback to keep a constant charge pressure of one atm.  

In common parlance it’s unimportant, and engine that uses exhaust gas to compress incoming air is referred to as turbocharged.  

Neal

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, f7ben said:

Admit you were wrong and we can move back to you getting owned on clutching  

You're unteachable as you've probably been told before.

And still no link to back up your 1 atmosphere claim, but I knew you couldn't.

 

[f7ben]

2 minutes ago, HSR said:

You're unteachable as you've probably been told before.

 

I have a fundamental understanding of what’s being discussed. You have wiki. You’re an idiot , that’s the gist of it 

[NaturallyAspirated]

6 minutes ago, f7ben said:

Engines are certified on a dyno and corrected for sea level. If you have a system that is not designed to exceed that power you are not turbocharging. 

The engine is creating a positive charge referenced to ambient atmosphere.  Just because a certain baseline ratings aren’t met doesn’t mean turbocharging isn’t happening.  You are falling down a rabbit hole. 

Neal

[f7ben]

10 minutes ago, NaturallyAspirated said:

The engine is creating a positive charge referenced to ambient atmosphere.  Just because a certain baseline ratings aren’t met doesn’t mean turbocharging isn’t happening.  You are falling down a rabbit hole. 

Neal

There are two very specific definitions here , you are ignoring one of them. 
 

Turbocharged

Turbo-normalized

[f7ben]

Also Neal , can you provide any example of any system ever designed and manufactured that operates in the manner you described? 
 

Or is this more theoretical lug flick 

[NaturallyAspirated]

13 minutes ago, f7ben said:

There are two very specific definitions here , you are ignoring one of them. 
 

Turbocharged

Turbo-normalized

Incorrect, I am not ignoring them.  Turbo-normalized is a sub-category of turbocharging.

Again, you are rabbit-holing.  Meh.

Neal

[NaturallyAspirated]

16 minutes ago, f7ben said:

Also Neal , can you provide any example of any system ever designed and manufactured that operates in the manner you described? 
 

Or is this more theoretical lug flick 

None that I know of, but every one built can operate in those scenarios, and are still turbocharged engines.

Neal

[awful knawful]

Bens ownage in this thread is reaching epicness.

What a retard.

[airflite1]

Since aviation was brought into the discussion and I debated heavily putting a TAT Whirlwind III on my Bonanza, I'll add their comparisons of turbocharging and turbo-normalizing.

 https://taturbo.com/tnvtc.html

Turbonormalizing Vs Turbocharging.

Understanding the important differences

Let us begin.

TN and TC engines share the following characteristics:

 

1. Both involve compressing outside ambient air to make it available as denser air to the engine induction system so that the engine can make more power.
2. The degree to which the air is compressed is just a matter of design choice when one decides to specify the engine and its ability to make horsepower across the normal range of desired altitudes.
3. Any time you compress air - you make it hotter. (As discussed below - almost everybody in the early days missed the importance of intercoolers.)
4. Both TN and TC systems use an exhaust driven turbine to drive a centrifugal compressor - at speeds that may range as high as 120,000 RPM on some units.
5. Both TN and TC systems can use the same turbo components.

 

The TN system designer typically starts with a normally aspirated engine and asks the following question:

[NaturallyAspirated]

51 minutes ago, airflite1 said:

Since aviation was brought into the discussion and I debated heavily putting a TAT Whirlwind III on my Bonanza, I'll add their comparisons of turbocharging and turbo-normalizing.

 https://taturbo.com/tnvtc.html

Turbonormalizing Vs Turbocharging.

Understanding the important differences

Let us begin.

TN and TC engines share the following characteristics:

 

1. Both involve compressing outside ambient air to make it available as denser air to the engine induction system so that the engine can make more power.
2. The degree to which the air is compressed is just a matter of design choice when one decides to specify the engine and its ability to make horsepower across the normal range of desired altitudes.
3. Any time you compress air - you make it hotter. (As discussed below - almost everybody in the early days missed the importance of intercoolers.)
4. Both TN and TC systems use an exhaust driven turbine to drive a centrifugal compressor - at speeds that may range as high as 120,000 RPM on some units.
5. Both TN and TC systems can use the same turbo components.

 

The TN system designer typically starts with a normally aspirated engine and asks the following question:

Lots of great info there.  Bottom line, use a damn intercooler!   

Neal

[f7ben]

52 minutes ago, airflite1 said:

Since aviation was brought into the discussion and I debated heavily putting a TAT Whirlwind III on my Bonanza, I'll add their comparisons of turbocharging and turbo-normalizing.

 https://taturbo.com/tnvtc.html

Turbonormalizing Vs Turbocharging.

Understanding the important differences

Let us begin.

TN and TC engines share the following characteristics:

 

1. Both involve compressing outside ambient air to make it available as denser air to the engine induction system so that the engine can make more power.
2. The degree to which the air is compressed is just a matter of design choice when one decides to specify the engine and its ability to make horsepower across the normal range of desired altitudes.
3. Any time you compress air - you make it hotter. (As discussed below - almost everybody in the early days missed the importance of intercoolers.)
4. Both TN and TC systems use an exhaust driven turbine to drive a centrifugal compressor - at speeds that may range as high as 120,000 RPM on some units.
5. Both TN and TC systems can use the same turbo components.

 

The TN system designer typically starts with a normally aspirated engine and asks the following question:

Wait ….so turbocharging and turbo normalizing are different things? 

[Jerry 976]

 

 

[NaturallyAspirated]

4 minutes ago, f7ben said:

Wait ….so turbocharging and turbo normalizing are different things? 

Quote

So, now, take the list of nine items above, and add item number 10.

Change the piston geometry to reduce the compression ratio by about 1 point, from ~ 8.5 down to 7.5:1.

When you do that you have identified the only meaningful "difference" in the hardware between our common terminology of turbonormalizing and turbocharging.

Neal