motonoggin Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Angry ginger said: if you don't like how much your selling your labor for improve your skills or find someone willing to pay you more for the skills you have. Capitalism is simple if you break it down to that. Only losers would be better off under moto's utopia. That's not the issue. Since the idea that wages are market based, it is a double whammy for capitalists - the more they cut labor costs, the less they can pay and the more profit they can exyract. Wage based demand and supply could remain in equilibrium with one another, if it weren't for the 'need' for record profits and the subsequent divergence of wages and productivity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zambroski Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 7 minutes ago, BOHICA said: http://www.nytimes.com/elections/results/president Kids should spend time in the big house.... They let him off. Hate crime in my opinion. Fucking gross. Didn't look like they had evidence for hate crime though. Beats me. It certainly looks like it got plenty of airplay attention. Lets see what happens in Chicago when all the sensationalism calms down. My guess, not much more than what whitey got. However, this is being set up nicely to cool some angry white people in that area that have had about enough of this shit from the negroes. It's always incidents like this that can kick off major social disturbances. And "whitey" has been on the edge for a lot of years now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boered Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 10 hours ago, motonoggin said: I am sad for you that life is worse than that of a slave. As for my family we are enjoying a wonderful standard of living with an abundance of food, great shelter, reliable transportation and terrific recreational enjoyment weekly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cold War Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 13 hours ago, Boered said: I am sad for you that life is worse than that of a slave. As for my family we are enjoying a wonderful standard of living with an abundance of food, great shelter, reliable transportation and terrific recreational enjoyment weekly. Living in a country that spends 60 billion a year to feed, dress up, and buy squeaky toys for their pets can't be all that bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry ginger Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 On 1/7/2017 at 9:20 PM, Boered said: I am sad for you that life is worse than that of a slave. As for my family we are enjoying a wonderful standard of living with an abundance of food, great shelter, reliable transportation and terrific recreational enjoyment weekly. :standingo: must suck to have such a miserable life and not be able to do anything to better it than post ridiculous memes on the intrawebs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 TFW you piss off liberals, conservatives, and Libertarians all at once... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momorider Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 1 minute ago, motonoggin said: TFW you piss off liberals, conservatives, and Libertarians all at once... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racer254 Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 13 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Always blaming others for ones own failures. Astonishing. Here's an idea, get off your lazy ass and WORK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 11 minutes ago, racer254 said: Always blaming others for ones own failures. Astonishing. Here's an idea, get off your lazy ass and WORK. Why should people work if the value of their labor is stolen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racer254 Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 Who is stealing labor? I get paid when I work. If I don't like the pay, I move on. Labor has value, just like material items. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry ginger Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 38 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Why should people work if the value of their labor is stolen? i trade my labor for money just like most everyone else, SBYL that you haven't figured out how to do that to a point your happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry ginger Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 34 minutes ago, racer254 said: Who is stealing labor? I get paid when I work. If I don't like the pay, I move on. Labor has value, just like material items. yup, whether you sell your skills in the real world or trade your skills to others for "free" in motos dream world your still doing something in exchange for something. Moneys just the means to account for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cold War Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 1 hour ago, motonoggin said: The ones that want to show up on Friday for a paycheck. My daughter is doing just fine, hired two days out of college with a great paying job. Yes, the communist movement is really taking off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 43 minutes ago, racer254 said: Who is stealing labor? I get paid when I work. If I don't like the pay, I move on. Labor has value, just like material items. Do market forces not apply to labor any longer? Why is it that we get all twisted up about taxes, yet remain willfully ignorant of the unelected capitalist stealing your labor value from you and keeping it for himself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 10 minutes ago, Angry ginger said: yup, whether you sell your skills in the real world or trade your skills to others for "free" in motos dream world your still doing something in exchange for something. Moneys just the means to account for it. This is completely incorrect. Read some fucking economic theory. FFS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momorider Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 2 minutes ago, motonoggin said: This is completely incorrect. Read some fucking economic theory. FFS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racer254 Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 32 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Do market forces not apply to labor any longer? Why is it that we get all twisted up about taxes, yet remain willfully ignorant of the unelected capitalist stealing your labor value from you and keeping it for himself? Does this graph represent the United States? The World? Only Capitalist countries? Without any details, the graph means nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 19 minutes ago, racer254 said: Does this graph represent the United States? The World? Only Capitalist countries? Without any details, the graph means nothing. It's odd that you can write but can't fucking read for shit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted January 10, 2017 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted January 10, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, motonoggin said: Do market forces not apply to labor any longer? Why is it that we get all twisted up about taxes, yet remain willfully ignorant of the unelected capitalist stealing your labor value from you and keeping it for himself? It technology and capital investment was stagnant your graph would have meaning. If you want to debate stagnant wages then fine but doing it on a comparison to productivity is meaningless as there is no way to account for technology and capital investment to account for those gains. We've been down this road before and I've given you real world examples inside my own company. I also love how as a business owner you are exempt from this yet nobody else is. Edited January 10, 2017 by Highmark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 1 minute ago, Highmark said: It technology and capital investment was stagnant your graph would have meaning. If you want to debate stagnant wages then fine but doing it on a comparison to productivity is meaningless as there is no way to account for technology and capital investment to account for those gains. We've been down this road before and I've given you real world examples inside my own company. I also love how as a business owner you are exempt from this yet nobody else is. Investment in efficiency is mostly done to reduce exposure to labor costs. It is also done with capital rendered from the theft of surplus value of someone's labor, and never done unless a justifiable demand for product is perceived. Allowing capital to be used is not itself a productive activity. Since literally everything is made with labor, capital is not essential to improvements in productivity and efficiency. The only thing capitalism does is decide that those who produce nothing are entitled to more than those who produce virtually everything. An unelected, unaccountable, untouchable class of people get to tell you how much money you make, act as sole arbiters of what a fair wage means, and have unlimited power to pit workers in different countries living under drastically different conditions against one another. Seems like tyranny with more steps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momorider Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted January 10, 2017 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted January 10, 2017 (edited) 15 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Investment in efficiency is mostly done to reduce exposure to labor costs. It is also done with capital rendered from the theft of surplus value of someone's labor, and never done unless a justifiable demand for product is perceived. Allowing capital to be used is not itself a productive activity. Since literally everything is made with labor, capital is not essential to improvements in productivity and efficiency. The only thing capitalism does is decide that those who produce nothing are entitled to more than those who produce virtually everything. An unelected, unaccountable, untouchable class of people get to tell you how much money you make, act as sole arbiters of what a fair wage means, and have unlimited power to pit workers in different countries living under drastically different conditions against one another. Seems like tyranny with more steps. Are you looking in the mirror when you write this? How are you so different than any other business owner? As for the rest. From the beginning of time man has worked to make things easier and more efficient to do. This goes from our daily lives to the business world. I'm sure you have done things inside your own business that makes you more productive or able to produce a higher quality product yet you come on here and preach what you do. Its really laughable. You are correct, virtually everything is produced from labor. What your chart fails to recognize is the labor costs of those that design and build the machines that make the worker or company more productive. It only takes into account the hourly worker in the end. While I will never argue that we've lost too many good paying blue collar jobs what we fail to recognize is the increase in jobs that pay extremely well to make those gains. The WORKER has some responsibility to change with the times. Make their skills more valuable. This is the case no matter what type of economy or govt you have. I wouldn't doubt in a communist country a hard working, highly intelligent person would never be able to be as successful as in a free market Democracy or Democratic Republic but I'd bet they would have opportunities beyond someone with less skills and work ethic. Kind of like Unions in the US. Your pipe dream of everyone's labor is equal is just completely false. If you really believed in that everyone at your company would make exactly the same.....INCLUDING YOU. Edited January 10, 2017 by Highmark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry ginger Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 1 hour ago, motonoggin said: Do market forces not apply to labor any longer? Why is it that we get all twisted up about taxes, yet remain willfully ignorant of the unelected capitalist stealing your labor value from you and keeping it for himself? as i have pointed out before the productivity gains did not come from workers working harder but from technology to which the workers entitled to nothing as they did not make the investment in tech. very few jobs are harder now than they were 30-40-50 years ago. Yes that technology has eliminated many but again you need to add value to the employer that is the tradeoff for $ and if you can;t you get less or you go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted January 10, 2017 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted January 10, 2017 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Angry ginger said: as i have pointed out before the productivity gains did not come from workers working harder but from technology to which the workers entitled to nothing as they did not make the investment in tech. very few jobs are harder now than they were 30-40-50 years ago. Yes that technology has eliminated many but again you need to add value to the employer that is the tradeoff for $ and if you can;t you get less or you go. If you look at blue collar jobs where the labor intensity has remained the same the gains are much different. Of course you need to factor out the illegals that have taken some of these jobs. Carpenters are a good example. In my area good home carpenters and concrete workers make excellent money as the contractors have not hired illegals. These are non union shops. The work has remained very physical and the guys get paid good money. Graphs and charts like this can pick and choose who they want to count to make it look one way or another. Whats also not accounted for is the quality of the worker. By quality I'm not just talking about average education but the ability to show up on time all the time. That has went down as generations have passed. The chart also accounts JUST FOR WAGES and does not account for Bennies. Many of the gains the ave blue collar worker has made has been in this area. 401K contributions, paid leave, Health Insurance just to name a few. http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2013/07/productivity-and-compensation-growing-together Edited January 10, 2017 by Highmark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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