Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted December 20, 2018 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted December 20, 2018 1 minute ago, motonoggin said: Friedman demonstrates the lack of imagination amongst neoliberals. They cannot even begin to imagine a world where we don't need authority and heirarchy to have a functioning society. Of course, that's a central identifying trait of authoritarians, they cannot imagine not having a king. They need a ruler and they wish to be ruled. It's sad. No such thing. I agree human beings would need to evolve in order to achieve this but that evolution is simply not going to ever happen....in fact its not possible on a massive scale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted December 20, 2018 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted December 20, 2018 7 minutes ago, motonoggin said: That's the thing, PEOPLE accomplished all these things, capitalism didn't do any of the work. All capitalism did was determine who got paid for that work. You don't get 5,000 engineers to design the new Dreamliner by people simply saying hey let's design a plane. Sorry it just cannot work that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted December 20, 2018 Author Share Posted December 20, 2018 1 minute ago, Highmark said: No such thing. I agree human beings would need to evolve in order to achieve this but that evolution is simply not going to ever happen....in fact its not possible on a massive scale. Like I said, total lack of imagination. You've been indoctrinated since birth with capitalist dogma. Of course you're going to think capitalism is the only/best way to run an economy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted December 20, 2018 Author Share Posted December 20, 2018 6 minutes ago, Highmark said: You don't get 5,000 engineers to design the new Dreamliner by people simply saying hey let's design a plane. Sorry it just cannot work that way. Maybe our priorities would be different, but if we wanted to build something like that, we don't need the profit motive to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anler Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 13 minutes ago, Highmark said: I'm not saying I don't think the worlds banking systems need overhauled are revamped but I just don't agree with blockchain currency as the only way. Its unrealistic to the average man. Not at all. It just isnt understood by the average man. And that is also on purpose. Because if he did understand he would know how he is getting fucked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 14 hours ago, motonoggin said: The key to understanding the recurrent crises of capitalism is the term ‘overproduction’. http://www.johnkeeley.com/understanding-overproduction/?fbclid=IwAR0ggNWzNFRi0xn_gcNtnQo3iuUur_TY9FWHMNgd_m1AyIn30cU4B932Fkc Capitalism produces not to meet human needs first & foremost, but to make a profit. It produces commodities to sell for more money than initially spent purchasing the required inputs. Money, at its core, is nothing more than that special commodity that acts as the universal equivalent. In otherwords, one particular commodity becomes the measure of value of all other commodities. Gold & silver have traditionally played the role of commodity money. There isn’t just commodity money though; there’s also token money & credit money. Today’s notes & coins are token money, as are Bitcoins, & credit cards are the most obvious form of credit money. But to have a firm grasp on the nature of commodity production, let’s leave token & credit money to one side for the moment. If we imagine a world where money consists only of gold coins, we can see that all commodities can be measured in terms of their value by the amount of gold coins they exchange for. The more gold coins a commodity sells for the higher its price. We can also say the higher its value. Exchange value is then amounts of gold, measured in coins of certain weights. As Marx explained, these prices that take the form of weights of gold, are the expression of abstract ‘socially necessary’ labour time. That is, behind exchange value lies labour values. The market is nothing more than the allocation of a finite amount of labour time. The reason weights of gold have traditionally taken on the role of measuring the (exchange) value of commodities is because it takes a finite amount of labour time to produce a given weight of gold. Indeed, it takes a great deal of labour time to produce relatively small weights. This is why, even today & despite speculation, gold has acted as a good measure of labour time…of value. In a capitalist economy that consists of just gold coins it is hard for production to get ahead of the market; where we see the ‘market’ as the aggregate amount of money that can be used to purchase commodities. What we can see clearly though is that there is one commodity that is different to all the others. The production of this money commodity can have implications for commodity production & so capitalism, in general. Once we introduce the other forms of money, token & credit, things change; we get the possibility, even inevitability, of production getting ahead of the ‘market’. This is because money’s link with labour values can become distorted, even broken. By issuing excessive amounts of token or credit money, aggregate prices can now exceed aggregate values. More can be produced & sold at prices that exceed total labour value. People & organisations are not paying with commodity money, gold coins, that already embody an amount of labour time, but paying effectively with future labour time, labour time that may not be realised. This means production gets ahead of the market. This is overproduction: the overproduction of commodities relative to the money commodity. As more & more credit money is created & debts build up nothing appears to be wrong at the surface level of appearance, quite the contrary as recorded profit rates are good, output is increasing, employment is on the up; we have a boom. What could possibly go wrong? Well eventually debt saturation is reached, money lenders (finance capital) start to worry that they are over-leveraged & may not get all their money back. There’s a credit-crunch as they stop lending to one another, this leads to a financial crisis, which eventually leads to an economic crisis as people & organisations default. The chain of credit breaks & bankruptcy leads to other bankruptcies. A large amount of the debt (credit money) has to be simply written-off. The law of value gets restored & aggregate prices get brought back into line with aggregate values, before the whole merry-go-round takes off again. Marx understood overproduction because he understood the basic commodity nature of production. Marx understood that there was a limit imposed on the amount of token money that could be created without inflation taking off & even threatening the stability of currency. Keynes & Friedman, not understanding labour values, thought that a fiat money regime could release capitalism from the constraint of gold. They fell into Say’s Law by thinking that it was merely enough to ensure adequate amounts of token money (aggregate demand) were produced to buy whatever amount is supplied to the market. They were unable to comprehend that leverage (credit money/debt) would cause aggregate prices to exceed aggregate values & that this would inevitably lead to a crisis. As much as they can exercise some degree of control over token money created, the state authorities are unable to control the creation of credit, as much as they may try to legislate it, e.g. reserve asset & capital ratios. The history of finance capital shows how inventive (swindling) they can be; just look at today’s derivatives market. This is the context of overproduction through which we must see the historically significant event of the fiat money regime initiated in 1971. It allows us to understand the rise of financialisation & the accompanying neo-liberal agenda of free-movement of capital & the plundering of state assets through privatisations. The rise of finance capital is predicated on credit money & the denial of the crisis of overproduction. Just how much the events that led up to Nixon’s break with gold were also tied up with falling rates of profit is up for debate. Just as the rise of China & the collapse of the Soviet Bloc has most probably increased the rate of exploitation & therefore supported/restored underlying rates of profit. What is important is the theory of overproduction & how through so-called ‘quantitative-easing’ (printing money) the various states around the world have only extended the crisis of overproduction; more debt to help pay the debts. Just as the adherents of neo-liberalism like to talk about market forces, the most powerful market force of them all, the law of value, is soon to bring their whole world crashing down. Surely about time we abolished capitalism & its crises of overproduction? You are literally part of the global 1% yet you do nothing to help people with your privilege Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted December 20, 2018 Author Share Posted December 20, 2018 1 minute ago, Anler said: Not at all. It just isnt understood by the average man. And that is also on purpose. Because if he did understand he would know how he is getting fucked. Yup. 💯 Just now, Rod Johnson said: You are literally part of the global 1% yet you do nothing to help people with your privilege You know almost zero about what I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted December 20, 2018 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted December 20, 2018 8 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Like I said, total lack of imagination. You've been indoctrinated since birth with capitalist dogma. Of course you're going to think capitalism is the only/best way to run an economy. No just a better understanding of human nature than you. Hell you won't even practice what you preach how is 7 billion going too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 Just now, motonoggin said: Yup. 💯 You know almost zero about what I do. You actively engage in capitalism for profit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcticCrusher Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 3 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Maybe our priorities would be different, but if we wanted to build something like that, we don't need the profit motive to do so. Sorry but IOU's won't cut it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 37 minutes ago, Snoslinger said: i am perfectly normal, and could be a therapist. definitely not in need of one. case in point - you actually agree more with me on this "capitalism" topic than you do noggin. but because i own you on a daily basis, point out your stupidity on a daily basis, you are mad. you are not about to show any support to my beliefs... consider that session free. next time i'm sending you a bill. hopefully you can afford it... Cool story....you still have to go to work everyday...i dont think theres any doubt who can afford anything. Btw im flying back into sask to go sledding for the weekend in the north...ill be sure to post my coordinates so you you believe me. Envy is a horrible thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted December 20, 2018 Author Share Posted December 20, 2018 1 minute ago, Highmark said: No just a better understanding of human nature than you. Hell you won't even practice what you preach how is 7 billion going too? Another typical neoliberal logical fallacy... You guys just can't stop, the brainwashing runs too deep. Just now, Rod Johnson said: You actively engage in capitalism for profit You actively engage in sodomy for no profit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 Capitalism has lifted millions out of poverty while communism has killed millions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 Just now, motonoggin said: Another typical neoliberal logical fallacy... You guys just can't stop, the brainwashing runs too deep. You actively engage in sodomy for no profit. You engage in capitalism for profit you are part of the 1% you help nobody with your privilege but muh capitalism and communism! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 46 minutes ago, DriftBusta said: Maybe if you had one you’d understand. I’m not challenged by new ideas either, but I also believe in American exceptionalism, whereas you guys think America is all that’s wrong with the world. That’s your first mistake. Formal economics college level educationfor a start, if he’s going to look down his nose at people like me, and call me the lowest form of parasite, because I’m a landlord and financial advisor. Are you new here? Cmon Mark....you know Ben just spews shit...you gotta learn to not take things so literally for christ sake! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted December 20, 2018 Author Share Posted December 20, 2018 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 Communists the THE most greedy people I. Existence they want what everyone else has, doesn’t want to work for it and and wants the government to take someone else belongings by force and give it to them capitalists want to keep what they work for Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f7ben Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 26 minutes ago, Highmark said: No such thing. I agree human beings would need to evolve in order to achieve this but that evolution is simply not going to ever happen....in fact its not possible on a massive scale. And man is never going to fly, or go to space....or breed AI....or or or Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted December 20, 2018 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted December 20, 2018 Just now, f7ben said: And man is never going to fly, or go to space....or breed AI....or or or They wouldn't without incentive other than food, clothing and shelter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted December 20, 2018 Author Share Posted December 20, 2018 13 minutes ago, Rod Johnson said: Capitalism has lifted millions out of poverty while communism has killed millions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted December 20, 2018 Author Share Posted December 20, 2018 Just now, Highmark said: They wouldn't without incentive other than food, clothing and shelter. More evidence of a severe deficit in cognitive imagination. You can't imagine why someone would want to do something unless they're threatened with deprivation of basic needs. That's fucked up and reveals a very poor opinion on the human race in general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 1 minute ago, motonoggin said: False. Even if sweat shop people are not paid a lot, they are making much more money than they ever were before Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted December 20, 2018 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted December 20, 2018 Just now, motonoggin said: More evidence of a severe deficit in cognitive imagination. You can't imagine why someone would want to do something unless they're threatened with deprivation of basic needs. That's fucked up and reveals a very poor opinion on the human race in general. Not what I'm saying at all. Whoosh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anler Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 2 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Well if we call those people terrorists or criminals we dont feel as bad... They made poor life choices. They should have embraced what we have, but not here. We dont want them here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 The amount of people living in starvation level Poverty has fallen around 80% since 1980 how did communism do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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