krom Posted November 28, 2023 Share Posted November 28, 2023 37 minutes ago, Crnr2Crnr said: there's less stress on the upper than the lower so they must've figured they could get away with it, but I'd prefer the weight penalty of two lock nuts over screwing into the spindle and relying upon bubble gum to hold it firm. kinda like Polaris gluing in the PTO bearing on the 2019 850's, dumb. The bolt doesn't care if its threaded into aluminum or steel, when it comes to backing out. Pretty much every skid frame is held together with bolts threaded into aluminum, and those all see way more force and abuse than the upper ball joint bolt ever would. Just look what holds the rear arm to the rails on most sleds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crnr2Crnr Posted November 28, 2023 Share Posted November 28, 2023 27 minutes ago, krom said: The bolt doesn't care if its threaded into aluminum or steel, when it comes to backing out. Pretty much every skid frame is held together with bolts threaded into aluminum, and those all see way more force and abuse than the upper ball joint bolt ever would. Just look what holds the rear arm to the rails on most sleds Bolt and a Nut, has worked well for a very long time. A bolt and glue... Nyet. Hopefully it's not an actual problem because they can't afford problems with this release. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krom Posted November 28, 2023 Share Posted November 28, 2023 6 minutes ago, Crnr2Crnr said: Bolt and a Nut, has worked well for a very long time. A bolt and glue... Nyet. Hopefully it's not an actual problem because they can't afford problems with this release. whats the difference between threads in a nut vs threads in a the spindle?? Most of the bolts in your 500 just thread into aluminum, Hell the bulkhead is held to the tunnel with self tappers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Posted November 29, 2023 Share Posted November 29, 2023 Thinking this is just a hiccup in production process. Sounds like the information got back to Arctic Cat and should be addressed. Good design or not the answer will come out this winter. Hopefully we have a good year of riding to see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crnr2Crnr Posted November 29, 2023 Share Posted November 29, 2023 (edited) 6 hours ago, krom said: what's the difference between threads in a nut vs threads in a the spindle?? Most of the bolts in your 500 just thread into aluminum, Hell the bulkhead is held to the tunnel with self tappers a bit... a bolt/nut through a drilled hole in a fixture is torsionally stronger than drilling a hole into the fixture with threads and utilizing adhesive. odds are higher the bolt will shear or the threads will give way. don't recall the last time if ever I've seen a vehicle with upper and lower control arms where the upper control arm was attached to the spindle or knuckle without a ball type joint utilizing a nut to secure it. from my pov in this case it's not just that there's a hole drilled into aluminum and threaded, it's that there's nothing to back those aluminum threads up or slow the bolt up from loosening or backing out, as a simple lock nut or bolt with a nut and just blue loctite would. relying upon the threads inside the spindle and it being assembled correctly 100% of the time, every time leaves a higher variable for error and improper strength and durability. saving a few ounces for the sake of a design change or to satisfy a bean counter doesn't fly with me, but that's the world we live in. my dad was what you might call an 'over-builder' and it rubbed off upon me and I'll sacrifice a bit of weight or additional labor process in effort to only engineer and construct a product once. as far as the SP... which ones are self tappers? are they torsionally structural? I've dug in pretty deep but never had to seperate the front end spar from the tunnel and encountered self tappers or bolts with caged nuts that I recall. https://www.babbittsonline.com/oemparts/a/arc/5012c1b3f8700219481d4c6f/front-frame-and-steering-support-assembly it's one thing to screw into aluminum, it's another to put a good deal of stress upon the joint and expect it to hold long term. if there's not a tremendous amount of stress on the upper A-arm bolt then screwing into the spindle might fly, but personally I'd still prefer a more proven solid mechanical attachment via a stud/bolt, drilled hole and appropriate nut. interesting exercise... there's a physics guy here, maybe he'll chime in... or a SkiDoo guy to explain how a pyramid works. Edited November 29, 2023 by Crnr2Crnr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deephaven Posted November 29, 2023 Share Posted November 29, 2023 The odd decision to me is that it costs more to tap that hole than to add a nut. It also makes cross threading and poor assembly easier and has less locking strength. Seems like a bonehead move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonlafon1 Posted November 29, 2023 Share Posted November 29, 2023 One bolt fell out of a sled and the world is ending for cat. LOL. Wont be the last. Production fuck up(probably not torqued to spec is my guess).. So the test mules that were built had the same set up, thinking it would have shown up in non production built sleds.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X2700 Posted November 29, 2023 Share Posted November 29, 2023 2 minutes ago, jonlafon1 said: One bolt fell out of a sled and the world is ending for cat. LOL. Wont be the last. Production fuck up(probably not torqued to spec is my guess).. So the test mules that were built had the same set up, thinking it would have shown up in non production built sleds.. nothing ever shows up on non production sleds then as soon as they finish cutting corners and go to full production shit always shows up and makes you wonder who test rides this stuff!! im sure just small issue but that’s where it starts!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonlafon1 Posted November 29, 2023 Share Posted November 29, 2023 (edited) 2 minutes ago, X2700 said: nothing ever shows up on non production sleds then as soon as they finish cutting corners and go to full production shit always shows up and makes you wonder who test rides this stuff!! im sure just small issue but that’s where it starts!! No doubt about the difference between pre and production.. I still would think it would have shown up if it was a bad design.. Fill that tapped hole with a shit load of blue locker and send it! Edited November 29, 2023 by jonlafon1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Posted November 29, 2023 Share Posted November 29, 2023 2 hours ago, Deephaven said: The odd decision to me is that it costs more to tap that hole than to add a nut. It also makes cross threading and poor assembly easier and has less locking strength. Seems like a bonehead move. The assembly method is made after the design is done. From past experience sometimes the Designers will give no consideration to who has to make or assemble the product. A good design team will work with manufacturing during to design for ease of manufacturing. A key to using threads or a nut is how accessible is the assemble to installing a nut. Manufacturing consideration doesn't always happen. Assemble lines look at things a little different or strange in some cases. An assembler can grab a component and a single bolt/tool to install it. Less task to assemble. For a nut and bolt now the assembler has to install the bolt, nut and use two tools to complete the assembly. The design will probably be fine. The concern like you said is the assembly process and that it is done properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deephaven Posted November 29, 2023 Share Posted November 29, 2023 Indeed. It doesn't scare me per se, but I also don't get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sleepybrew Posted November 29, 2023 Share Posted November 29, 2023 if that bolt was loose and worked it's way out typically it would have wiggled for a while and oblonged the hole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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