CATALYST Quality Ooops- Reposted from HCS/SnoWest

[Not greg b]

6 hours ago, Crnr2Crnr said:

you mean mother nature's red loctite?

Yes. Cheaper than loctite. I can get it for free when I haul my sled on an open trailer and no cover. The open trailer gets better gas mileage than the enclosed 

[Crnr2Crnr]

2 hours ago, krom said:

AC has been using that bolt/trinut setup for years now on the M's and G2 sleds

if there's a shouldered bolt and Tri-nut on the Catalyst... I'm not seeing it in the parts breakdown.  what I'm seeing is an (aluminum) shouldered bolt threaded directly into the top of the spindle.  if I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

1 hour ago, Doug said:

Here's some follow up on the issue.  The owner is on Facebook.  Sounds to be an assemble issue.  Arctic Cat will probably take to old spindle to see what the cause is.

straight to a 'recall' but to my knowledge hasn't answered if he hit a stump or ? with it on 'the book'.  the shit all over the joint isn't grease.  that doesn't justify his displeasure or inconvenience but upon first impressions when it was texted to me it looked like an impact and the joint separated clean in the spindle bolt hole. 

as previously stated, there was no need to reinvent the wheel here to shave 3oz's as they had a design that wasn't known to fail.

am I being critical?  yup... after a decade of the same chassis they should know what works and what is consumer R&D which should be unacceptable.

 

[Crnr2Crnr]

39 minutes ago, Not greg b said:

Yes. Cheaper than loctite. I can get it for free when I haul my sled on an open trailer and no cover. The open trailer gets better gas mileage than the enclosed 

thank you for saving the planet by sacrificing your snowmobile to the mpg gods.  have you considered an EV yet as a friend of mine recently sent me a map showing charging stations all over the UP? 

[Not greg b]

7 minutes ago, Crnr2Crnr said:

if there's a shouldered bolt and Tri-nut on the Catalyst... I'm not seeing it in the parts breakdown.  what I'm seeing is an (aluminum) shouldered bolt threaded directly into the top of the spindle.  if I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

straight to a 'recall' but to my knowledge hasn't answered if he hit a stump or ? with it on 'the book'.  the shit all over the joint isn't grease.  that doesn't justify his displeasure or inconvenience but upon first impressions when it was texted to me it looked like an impact and the joint separated clean in the spindle bolt hole. 

as previously stated, there was no need to reinvent the wheel here to shave 3oz's as they had a design that wasn't known to fail.

am I being critical?  yup... after a decade of the same chassis they should know what works and what is consumer R&D which should be unacceptable.

 

They used Uggg duggas and rammed that bitch in there harder than gym’s stop sign 

[Crnr2Crnr]

Just now, Not greg b said:

They used Uggg duggas and rammed that bitch in there harder than gym’s stop sign 

I'm going with owner fucked up hitting something with a side of poor design for the win...  until proven otherwise. 

[Not greg b]

8 minutes ago, Crnr2Crnr said:

thank you for saving the planet by sacrificing your snowmobile to the mpg gods.  have you considered an EV yet as a friend of mine recently sent me a map showing charging stations all over the UP? 

Yes I just drove by the grocery store across the street from the trail. They have 1/2 a dozen Tesla super chargers not being used. The Casino next door from the bar I am at has them as well. I used them to charge up my Milwaukee sawzall for free. Will need need it for sled modz soon. 

Edited November 28, 2023 by Not greg b

[Crnr2Crnr]

2 minutes ago, Not greg b said:

Yes I just drove by the grocery store across the street from the trail. They have 1/2 a dozen Tesla super chargers not being used. The Casino next door from the bar I am at has them as well. I used them to charge up my Milwaukee sawzall for free. Will need need it for sled modz soon. 

I'm going to overtorqe your A-arms before it gets to Michigan... I have a huge breaker bar and some DOM tubing in six foot lengths. 

 

[Doug]

23 minutes ago, Crnr2Crnr said:

I'm going with owner fucked up hitting something with a side of poor design for the win...  until proven otherwise. 

Like @krom said they been using this design on the M-series for a while.

If you read through the thread it's actually the guys son's sled and he didn't hit anything.  The pic shows snow packed in the spindle.  No sheared off bolt.  Also further down the Facebook thread a guys shows a pic of an older sled missing the same bolt that bolts directly into the spindle.  Assemble issue somebody missed the loctite.

 

 

 

[Crnr2Crnr]

1 minute ago, Doug said:

Like @krom said they been using this design on the M-series for a while.

If you read through the thread it's actually the guys son's sled and he didn't hit anything.  The pic shows snow packed in the spindle.  No sheared off bolt.  Also further down the Facebook thread a guys shows a pic of an older sled missing the same bolt that bolts directly into the spindle.  Assemble issue somebody missed the loctite.

Here's a breakdown of a 2022 M-series where the bolt threads into the spindle.

 

@Doug, sudden defender of Arctic Cat... please show me the Tri-nut on a Catalyst upper A-arm and spindle.  I already provided the country cat link to the parts breakdown.

  

[Doug]

1 minute ago, Crnr2Crnr said:

@Doug, sudden defender of Arctic Cat... please show me the Tri-nut on a Catalyst upper A-arm and spindle.  I already provided the country cat link to the parts breakdown.

  

Not defending anything just what the owners son is reporting and the other owner showing a pic.

[krom]

27 minutes ago, Doug said:

Like @krom said they been using this design on the M-series for a while.

If you read through the thread it's actually the guys son's sled and he didn't hit anything.  The pic shows snow packed in the spindle.  No sheared off bolt.  Also further down the Facebook thread a guys shows a pic of an older sled missing the same bolt that bolts directly into the spindle.  Assemble issue somebody missed the loctite.

 

 

 

I'm not jimwit so this didn't come from my buddies uncles cousin, but what I've been told in the past is that the fasteners come to the factory with patch-lock on them, and get tightened with a dc torque tool. 

Eso no significa que los trabajadores aprieten los pernos

Edited November 28, 2023 by krom

[Crnr2Crnr]

1 hour ago, Doug said:

Not defending anything just what the owners son is reporting and the other owner showing a pic.

edit: @Doug, that's a Procross with the Tri-Nut, not a Catalyst with the bolt screwing directly into the spindle.  

1 hour ago, krom said:

I'm not jimwit so this didn't come from my buddies uncles cousin, but what I've been told in the past is that the fasteners come to the factory with patch-lock on them, and get tightened with a dc torque tool. 

Eso no significa que los trabajadores aprieten los pernos

is the bolt a shouldered aluminum bolt as found in the parts breakdown?   if so, fail imo.  

Edited November 28, 2023 by Crnr2Crnr

[krom]

15 minutes ago, Crnr2Crnr said:

so the shouldered bolt threads directly into the top of the spindle.   shit design confirmed.   

is the bolt a shouldered aluminum bolt as found in the parts breakdown?   if so, fail imo.  

bolt is an 8mm class 10.9 that threads into the aluminum spindle.

Class 10.9
Alloy steel, quenched and tempered
Proof Load 830 MPa
Min. Yield Strength 940 MPa
Min. Tensile Strength 1040 MPa

so yield strenght of the bolt is 7711 lbs

Edited November 28, 2023 by krom

[Doug]

17 minutes ago, krom said:

I'm not jimwit so this didn't come from my buddies uncles cousin, but what I've been told in the past is that the fasteners come to the factory with patch-lock on them, and get tightened with a dc torque tool. 

Eso no significa que los trabajadores aprieten los pernos

They should send the spindle back to see if there's any residue of loctite.  If not an assemble problem or the bolt was missing the patch-lock.  The bolt is in a shear load so the bolt loosing and coming out points to tightening or retaining torque issue.

Could also be some rework was done with the spindle and when it was reassembled they didn't use new hardware or loctite was not applied.

[krom]

1 minute ago, Doug said:

They should send the spindle back to see if there's any residue of loctite.  If not an assemble problem or the bolt was missing the patch-lock.  The bolt is in a shear load so the bolt loosing and coming out points to tightening or retaining torque issue.

Could also be some rework was done with the spindle and when it was reassembled they didn't use new hardware or loctite was not applied.

my bet is that jose didn't tighten it all the way, or used the wrong bolt somehow... 

[Crnr2Crnr]

3 minutes ago, krom said:

bolt is an 8mm class 10.9 that threads into the aluminum spindle.

Class 10.9
Alloy steel, quenched and tempered
Proof Load 830 MPa
Min. Yield Strength 940 MPa
Min. Tensile Strength 1040 MPa

so yield strength of the bolt is 7711 lbs

good info and thanks... the OEM info on CC is potentially misleading.  

https://www.countrycat.com/arctic-cat-2623-340-screw-shldr-tsh-m8x1-25x45-cl10-9sz-alum

based upon the initial picture (to me) it appears and I'm assuming the torx based bolt head is still inside the A-arm joint and the remainder of the broken off bolt is still in the A-arm.  if the bolt came 'out' for whatever reason and that's just snow in the joint and spindle then I'm mistaken and willingly admit it.    

then begs the question(s), did the bolt magically back out?  was the appropriate thread locker on the bolt and was it torqued properly when it left the factory?  what's the point and 'improvement' in this new spindle design to warrant this risk?

sorry, but it's the not an engineer or engineering tech, engineer in me.  

[Crnr2Crnr]

12 minutes ago, krom said:

my bet is that jose didn't tighten it all the way, or used the wrong bolt somehow... 

is Ericco still making their spindles, or did that change with Textron?

[krom]

4 minutes ago, Crnr2Crnr said:

is Ericco still making their spindles, or did that change with Textron?

[Doug]

10 minutes ago, Crnr2Crnr said:

  if the bolt came 'out' for whatever reason and that's just snow in the joint and spindle then I'm mistaken and willingly admit it.    

 

 

[Crnr2Crnr]

3 minutes ago, krom said:

it's not on them if they do, not a fan of this design already...

1 minute ago, Doug said:

 

didn't see that particular reply the other day and as stated if I'm mistaken and wrong... then shame on me.   

still a shit design though imo, this probably won't be the first or last.  

[Doug]

9 minutes ago, Crnr2Crnr said:

it's not on them if they do, not a fan of this design already...

didn't see that particular reply the other day and as stated if I'm mistaken and wrong... then shame on me.   

still a shit design though imo, this probably won't be the first or last.  

Seems more risky than the tried and true nut and bolt.  More reliant on assemble process.

[Crnr2Crnr]

1 minute ago, Doug said:

Seems more risky than the tried and true nut and bolt.  More reliant on assemble process.

dad always told me not to reinvent the wheel.   

[Premium]

This new system probably fits with one of the design philosophies the engineering team employed for Catalyst... reducing fasteners, overall part count, weight, etc.

I would like to imagine Herf would've exposed this area of failure many times over if it was truly design related.

Krom's assembly error theory sounds more likely to me, at this point at least.

[Ziemann]

16 hours ago, Crnr2Crnr said:

is Ericco still making their spindles, or did that change with Textron?

At least up until the last couple of years, Ericco was a sponsor of Herfindahl. But I don't have a clue if Textron still does business there locally with Ericco. I took a look at Ericco's Faceplant Page, and they haven't posted any Cat content since 2021.   

[Crnr2Crnr]

2 hours ago, Premium said:

This new system probably fits with one of the design philosophies the engineering team employed for Catalyst... reducing fasteners, overall part count, weight, etc.

I would like to imagine Herf would've exposed this area of failure many times over if it was truly design related.

Krom's assembly error theory sounds more likely to me, at this point at least.

there's less stress on the upper than the lower so they must've figured they could get away with it, but I'd prefer the weight penalty of two lock nuts over screwing into the spindle and relying upon bubble gum to hold it firm. 

kinda like Polaris gluing in the PTO bearing on the 2019 850's, dumb.