D&D Sno Pro 500/720

[Crnr2Crnr]

Thought I'd start a separate page of information specific to the D&D Sno Pro 500/720 as I've just gone through all the legwork and expense and it's fresh in my brain.  There were a lot of phone calls, emails, shipping and investigation involved so hopefully this helps others down the road. 

I plan to update/edit this post over time.   Too bad for you HCS and Vertical Scope! 

You can no longer (at this time) get pistons or cylinders for this engine from Wiseco or D&D but the guy I worked with is looking into having 720 pistons made again.  If you have a 720 and happen to destroy a cylinder skirt (common) private message me and I will provide you with contact information for cylinder repair and pistons.  Update 9/4/21 - have contact info for someone that had a small run of 720 pistons made by Wiseco.  PM for contact info.

Here's a list of specific parts required to do the top end, miscellaneous parts and additions I did and at this point would suggest.

Also, it's crucial to have the proper Boondocker settings (see below)

  

Top End

9498P8487-----Forged Pistons 84.87-----Wiseco

3347TD---------Piston Rings--------------Wiseco

S539------------Piston Pins----------------Wiseco

CW22-----------Piston Pin Circlips---------Wiseco

3008-500------Piston Thrust Washers-----Cat

3008-503------Piston Upper Rod Bearing---Cat

3006-423-------Cylinder Base/Case Gasket---Cat

3005-283-A----Power Valve Gaskets----------Cat

3004-260-------Water Manifold Gaskets------Cat

------------------Y-pipe Gaskets (2-Bolt)------Custom Cut Copper

------------------Dome O'Rings (Inner)---------75 Viton Size 153

------------------Dome O’rings (Outer)---------75 Viton Size 49

 

Add-On's or Suggested
V3112-873C-2----V-Force Reeds

5639-897---------Arctic Cat Scratchers

--------------------Side Panel Venting--------Proven Designs

--------------------Temp Gauge--------------Koso

BR9EIX-------------Spark Plugs--------------NGK
 

2602-217----------39 Tooth Lower Gear-----Cat

1602-772----------70P Chain----------------Cat

SMA-DPSSR-00-00----Vespel Slides--------Yamaha

Boondocker Settings (per D&D)

2010 - 500/720 Non-Power Valve (without 2011 & up flash)

RPM LO MID HIGH

3000 -01 -04 -05

5000 -03 -06 -06

6700 07 05 -02

7300 10 10 02

7800 15 10 02 

8250 28 28 28

8700 45 45 45

Accel -06

Dur 20

Sens 08

 

2010 - 500/720 Power Valve (without 2011 & up flash)

RPM LO MID HIGH

3000 -03 -04 -05

5000 -03 -08 -08

6700 15 11 00

7300 15 15 02

7800 25 20 02

8200 28 28 28

8700 45 45 45

Accel -06
Dur 20

Sens 08

 

2011 & UP - 500/720 (or 2010 with reflashed 2011 & up programming)

RPM LO MID HIGH

3000 02 03 10

5000 04 03 08

6700 15 11 00

7300 15 15 02

7800 25 20 02

8200 28 28 28

8700 45 45 45

Accel 10

Dur 10

Sens 08

Boondocker Instructions https://boondocker.com/pages/instructions#NA_Snow_Control_Box

Boondocker Mount http://stores.mountainfithoods.net/fuel-controller-mount-boondocker-box/

Clutching per D&D

2010 SNO PRO 500/720

MAGNAFORCE 53 BASE, PLACE MAGS 3-2-1-1,  .030 SHIM,  RED PRIMARY,  STOCK SECONDARY

D&D 200-022

Red Primary Spring (170/330)

 
Gearing/Secondary Spring/Helix Options

Stock 2010 500 

Helix is 40/38 - 0648-805
Spring is Black/Blue 180/260 - 0648-790
20/46 gearing

Belt 0627-047

Stock 2010/2011 SX 600

Helix is 68-48-36/64-48-41 0648-789

Spring is Black/Blue 180/260 - 0648-790

20/46 gearing

Belt 0627-075

Stock 2010/2011 XC 600

Helix is 44/42 0648-809 (Venom # LW420453)

Spring is Black/Orange 180/280 0648-792 (Speedwerx CCH5-J-180-280)

20/39 gearing  

Belt 0627-076 

Stock Sno Pro 500 clutching information

For 2010 replace stock orange/black pile of shit primary spring with Speedwerx CCH5-D-148-290 Green White

For 2010's update to the 2011-2014 primary weights 0746-826 for smoother engagement

Always run a GOOD 0627-047 Belt 

2011-2014 Speedwerx primary spring for lower engagement CCH5-D-122-285  (I prefer the 148-290)  

Jackshaft Bearing Timken RA100RRB 

 https://www.arcticinsider.com/sno-pro-500-part-iv-final-chapter/

https://arcticinsider.com/Images/Article/D&D 720 kit dyno sheet V2.pdf

 

Edited February 1, 2023 by Crnr2Crnr

[Frostynuts]

So, for all that time and expense, exactly what did you gain, versus just getting a re-built 800 ?

[Crnr2Crnr]

On 2/28/2021 at 11:18 AM, Frostynuts said:

So, for all that time and expense, exactly what did you gain, versus just getting a re-built 800 ?

It was a rebuild, so 135hp+ with fuel and oil injection in the best chassis Cat has ever made - imo.

Birch Point was the only company that ever offered an 800 stuffed into this chassis and those are as rare as chicken teeth.
https://www.birchpointmarina.com/gallery/25092

So, this thread has nothing to do with F7 swaps, Speedwerx 730's or Birch Point 800's.

Edited November 27, 2022 by Crnr2Crnr

[hayward]

Great job, and really appreciate you doing the leg work and sharing all this hard-earned info. 

I suppose the way it sounds, at 3500ish miles, I ought to maybe think about rounding up what I can to freshen up the top end.  What would your engine guy think about that idea?

[Crnr2Crnr]

49 minutes ago, hayward said:

Great job, and really appreciate you doing the leg work and sharing all this hard-earned info. 

I suppose the way it sounds, at 3500ish miles, I ought to maybe think about rounding up what I can to freshen up the top end.  What would your engine guy think about that idea?

No problem, hope it's useful for folks that have them or are considering buying a used one.

So, mine wasn't quite at 4,000 miles - it was actually at 3239 and to my knowledge it was never opened up.  It was most definitely overheated at least once and the base gasket on the PTO side had a nice pucker in it.  At the minimum I'd suggest doing an end of season compression check, pull the Y-pipe (get his copper gaskets) and take a peek inside and if you have access to a borescope get a real good look with the Y-off it.  Stick a finger in the ports and feel around for the skirt, although if it went, it makes a hellacious noise.  As I can see it, the biggest enemy of this engine is heat.

That said...   Ran up north this afternoon and put the first break-in miles on mine in fresh snow.  While riding it was very constant in the 106-118F range, and I was constantly modulating the throttle and only ran it up to about 7800 a couple times.  Pulls real good, the XC gearing may need some fine tuning in the secondary but I decided to run a 'seasoned' 047 belt during break-in rather than my literally new 0627-076 XC belt.  Once the engine is broken in I'm going to focus on the helix and spring in the secondary after riding it in various conditions.  On hard pack this thing is going to be a hoot... and dare I say quick.       

[Crnr2Crnr]

few more updates and things I found in my pile of notes today added... will add Speedwerx H5 Alloy part numbers to all the springs listed and hopefully be able to test a wide variety of springs and Helixes next season with the XC gearing.

[Crnr2Crnr]

Updated info - pistons

Going to add the XC 42/44 helix and 180/280 Speedwerx Secondary spring.  

Edited September 6, 2021 by Crnr2Crnr

[Not greg b]

On 9/6/2021 at 9:46 AM, Crnr2Crnr said:

Updated info - pistons

Going to add the XC 42/44 helix and 180/280 Speedwerx Secondary spring.  

I hope you stocked up on a set or 3?

[Crnr2Crnr]

Need a little TSS-04 guidance and input.  

Changing the stock 500 38/40 helix and 180/260 spring and going to the factory 600 XC 42/44 helix and 180/280 spring with the XC gearing.

Debating which ramp to run (leaning towards 44) and debating if I should toss delrin washer(s) or roller(s) in with the spring.

Any thoughts or advise on this @Not greg b @Tommcat @fortune46x ?

Looks like the original owner had it on the 38 ramp with the stock spring, which probably explains why I was skinning belts on high speed runs with the stock gearing.  

Edited October 23, 2021 by Crnr2Crnr

[mnstang]

Why not try both angles and see what you prefer?  

Test and tune.

[Tommcat]

15 hours ago, Crnr2Crnr said:

Need a little TSS-04 guidance and input.  

Changing the stock 500 38/40 helix and 180/260 spring and going to the factory 600 XC 42/44 helix and 180/280 spring with the XC gearing.

Debating which ramp to run (leaning towards 44) and debating if I should toss delrin washer(s) or roller(s) in with the spring.

Any thoughts or advise on this @Not greg b @Tommcat @fortune46x ?

Looks like the original owner had it on the 38 ramp with the stock spring, which probably explains why I was skinning belts on high speed runs with the stock gearing.  

Are you accidentally switching the helix numbers, or are you actually using reverse and helixes?

[Crnr2Crnr]

12 minutes ago, Tommcat said:

Are you accidentally switching the helix numbers, or are you actually using reverse and helixes?

Huh?  no reverse  

500 secondary was 38/40 helix with 20/46 gearing

600 XC was 42/44 helix with 20/39 gearing

this is the 720 which I've already done the 20/39 gearing on, and am now changing the helix and spring in the secondary

thoughts on the delrin? 

10 hours ago, mnstang said:

Why not try both angles and see what you prefer?  

Test and tune.

that's what is most likely to happen,

Greg had an F7 conversion with a steep ramp, Alex had a Speedwerx 730 version and Tommy knows clutching so I thought I'd bounce it off them before screwing everything back together.

 

[Tommcat]

Just now, Crnr2Crnr said:

Huh?  no reverse  

500 secondary was 38/40 helix with 20/46 gearing

600 XC was 42/44 helix with 20/39 gearing

this is the 720 which I've already done the 20/39 gearing on, and am now changing the helix and spring in the secondary

thoughts on the delrin? 

that's what is most likely to happen,

Greg had an F7 conversion with a steep ramp, Alex had a Speedwerx 730 version and Tommy knows clutching so I thought I'd bounce it off them before screwing everything back together.

 

You listed the helix as 38/40. That would be a reverse angle helix that starts on the 38 and transitions to 40.

Which do exist, but are generally only used for very specific applications. 

Or do you actually have a 40/38 and wrote it backwards? which i see a lot

 

[Crnr2Crnr]

27 minutes ago, Tommcat said:

You listed the helix as 38/40. That would be a reverse angle helix that starts on the 38 and transitions to 40.

Which do exist, but are generally only used for very specific applications. 

Or do you actually have a 40/38 and wrote it backwards? which i see a lot

 

no, these are straight cut Team twin trax which can either be set on a 38 ramp or 40 ramp, or with the XC a 42 ramp or 44 ramp

 

Edited October 24, 2021 by Crnr2Crnr
Added pics

[mnstang]

All that delrin washer stuff and other snake oil products.., yes there is something to it, it can make shifting smoother but it doesn't instantly make X combo better.  It's all part of your overall calibration.

Instead of looking at numbers and components on paper you should think about riding your sled and what you want to be better about your calibration.  A free-er secondary can help with backshift but the direction you're going with helix tells me you aren't concerned about backshift.  What are you looking accomplish?  I think sometimes making everything really slippery can cause some consistency issues, I know one sled I had was like that after doing the tricks.  Mind you, I don't think a fancy washer under a spring is really going to accomplish anything you'll notice.  I'll also say that when tuning your clutch it is best to do one part at a time.  If you put a spring and helix in, then don't like it, you don't know which part did what on the machine and didn't learn anything.

If I was you I'd go from the 38 to the 44.  Just because it's the biggest change do be more likely to feel it.  But if it is too much change you can back it down to the other angle.  Then put your spring in and see how you like that.  If you aren't slipping the belt, you probably don't need the spring, you want as little force as you can without slipping the belt.  Higher angle will be easier to shift out and lazier to backshift (crner2crner?  Fraud??). The higher rate spring will give squeeze to the belt but will also resist that upshift so it's kind of opposing things.  What are you trying to accomplish.  Bottom line I'd do one thing at a time.

[Crnr2Crnr]

6 hours ago, mnstang said:

All that delrin washer stuff and other snake oil products.., yes there is something to it, it can make shifting smoother but it doesn't instantly make X combo better.  It's all part of your overall calibration.

Instead of looking at numbers and components on paper you should think about riding your sled and what you want to be better about your calibration.  A free-er secondary can help with backshift but the direction you're going with helix tells me you aren't concerned about backshift.  What are you looking accomplish?  I think sometimes making everything really slippery can cause some consistency issues, I know one sled I had was like that after doing the tricks.  Mind you, I don't think a fancy washer under a spring is really going to accomplish anything you'll notice.  I'll also say that when tuning your clutch it is best to do one part at a time.  If you put a spring and helix in, then don't like it, you don't know which part did what on the machine and didn't learn anything.

If I was you I'd go from the 38 to the 44.  Just because it's the biggest change do be more likely to feel it.  But if it is too much change you can back it down to the other angle.  Then put your spring in and see how you like that.  If you aren't slipping the belt, you probably don't need the spring, you want as little force as you can without slipping the belt.  Higher angle will be easier to shift out and lazier to backshift (crner2crner?  Fraud??). The higher rate spring will give squeeze to the belt but will also resist that upshift so it's kind of opposing things.  What are you trying to accomplish.  Bottom line I'd do one thing at a time.

 

Team actually sells the Delrins in packs of three, after doing some homework I'm going to just try one as per SLP's direction, which I can always remove.  https://www.startinglineproducts.com/media/instructions/50-57.pdf  IDK what's with people shoving two or three in theirs reading other threads online in a variety of forums?    

The 500 & 600 SX used the same gearing and secondary spring, but different helixes and belts.  The XC didn't share any of these components with the 500 or 600 SX.  What I'm shooting for with this sled is good 25-50 trail manners and max velocity if that makes sense.  That's why I went with all the XC gearing and driveline components as a baseline rather than just start tossing in random shit and I prefer to start with factory matched components.  I went with the stock 600 XC helix and spring for 2010-2011 which isn't far from the 500's.  I can also tell you the combination of the ramp it was on and the spring that's in the secondary was getting opened up and bottoming the belt way too easily and quickly, mushrooming the stock 500 belt and blowing off the outer skin... twice, and bigly.  There's a big difference between 85hp & 130+ sucking the sheaves open.  I'll also be running the stock 600 XC belt.   The spring isn't much different (20lbs on finish), the helix is just one step up will probably try 44 first.

 

 

 

[Crnr2Crnr]

Boing 

The Speedwerx H5-J-180-280 black/red spring (right) is a bit shorter than stock 500 0648-790 black/blue 18-260 (center) but definitely stiffer. 

Venom 95557 gold/black 170/240 spring that's often talked about for the 500 for comparison.  I don't suggest this spring unless you are very light and run at WOT or high speed regularly.  Backshift is not as good as stock and the tiny bit of rpm drop or increase in mph you might get from it is not worth it.  If you are overrevving check to see if your helix is at 38 or 40.  Make sure you are running a good belt and not slipping.  Moving the helix to 40 costs absolutely nothing to try.  I suggest sticking with the stock secondary spring for the 500   

Edited February 1, 2023 by Crnr2Crnr

[Crnr2Crnr]

went with 44 on the helix, new spring and one delrin under the cup.  put the 076 belt on and belt deflection was way tf out of whack from running the stock 500 belt during the one test ride at the end of last season.  guess we'll see what happens when the lake freezes over and we get enough snow on it to do some testing.  a bit excited to see how the entire combo works out and if it can run the number on the pond.    

[Crnr2Crnr]

Edited October 31, 2021 by Crnr2Crnr

[Crnr2Crnr]

Current setup in orange in pdf attached.  Thinking the primary needs adjustment for proper rpms up top. 

https://www.hardcoresledder.com/threads/d-d-shim-kit-w-speedwerx-clutch-kit.1062753/#post-11163241

 

@Not greg b@taperk600 @fortune46x

500_720.pdf

Edited February 9, 2022 by Crnr2Crnr

[Not greg b]

Put another magnet in it. I would try 3 2 2 1 and 3 3 1 1 and see what it likes 

[Crnr2Crnr]

On 2/9/2022 at 2:45 PM, Not greg b said:

Put another magnet in it. I would try 3 2 2 1 and 3 3 1 1 and see what it likes 

I'm looking at dropping down to a 175/305 spring and 2-1-1-1 on the mags.  If I'm still not in the right rev range drop to 42 on the helix. 

Hoping to hear back from D&D.  Joe & Alex agreed with my line of thought.  

Edited February 12, 2022 by Crnr2Crnr

[mnstang]

I do not try to control wot rpm with a spring.  That spring has less rate and the motor will be less peppy with that much less rate.  The spring does alot more than start force and finish force, the rate makes a big difference in riding character of the machine.

[Crnr2Crnr]

On 2/10/2022 at 12:07 PM, mnstang said:

I do not try to control wot rpm with a spring.  That spring has less rate and the motor will be less peppy with that much less rate.  The spring does alot more than start force and finish force, the rate makes a big difference in riding character of the machine.

 

I took a three part clinic this morning. 

From a dead stop to about 80 it pulls hard and strong but isn't pulling rpm or shift out.  After changing the secondary, drive ratio, and track... I failed to address the needs of the primary.   Found it interesting how much difference there was between the 500/XC/SX in the primary weights and springs.  Never caught that before.  Have been chatting with the right folks to get it dialed in from stopped to top end.  What's funny is that D&D lists all kinds of specs and good info, but nothing for clutching if you actually re-gear it.       

 

 

Attaching @Not greg b's F7 SnoPro Speedwerx clutching info with 20/46 gearing just as a reference... and in case he loses his phone. 
 

Edited February 12, 2022 by Crnr2Crnr

[mnstang]

1 hour ago, Crnr2Crnr said:

 

I took a three part clinic this morning. 

From a dead stop to about 80 it pulls hard and strong but isn't pulling rpm or shift out.  After changing the secondary, drive ratio, and track... I failed to address the needs of the primary.   Found it interesting how much difference there was between the 500/XC/SX in the primary weights and springs.  Never caught that before.  Have been chatting with the right folks to get it dialed in from stopped to top end.  What's funny is that D&D lists all kinds of specs and good info, but nothing for clutching if you actually re-gear it.       

 

 

Attaching @Not greg b's F7 SnoPro Speedwerx clutching info with 20/46 gearing just as a reference... and in case he loses his phone. 
 

Wait.  What?  From your earlier post about adding weight and going to a lazier spring I gathered you were trying to bring down rpm.

Are you saying you need more rpm?  Exactly what is happening?  Do you pull rpm til 80 and then it drops rpm and acceleration slows?  You need to be more detailed.  

If you are dropping rpm it's not because you're not shifting out.  I see people on internet say things like that alot.  If the clutches stop shifting for some reason but you still have power to go, your rpms would climb, not drop.  But people look at the speedo stop moving and say it's not shifting out.  Not the case.