Effectiveness of border barriers

[SnowRider]

36 minutes ago, Snoslinger said:

Point #1.  Nobody is advocating nothing be done. Everyone wants a barrier of some sort 

point #2. It doesn’t matter wtf kind of barrier people have around their homes. The border wall is a completely different scenario

point #3. I don’t have any barriers around my property 

point #4. You are a complete moron with no critical thinking skills whatsoever

That’s a major  Sorry @racer254 but you’re so dumb it hurts.

[Mainecat]

https://youtu.be/f7kk96hqcTA

[01mxz800]

here comes blownlightbulbrider in for the reach around...…..snotblowrider

[Jimmy Snacks]

2 hours ago, racer254 said:

I am willing to be that over 50% of the posters here have a fence/wall/border barrier on at least one part of their property. 

Good god just stop you ignorant fuck.😂😂

[J. Jackson]

Does anyone against the wall know a higher level Border Patrol official or actually have facts that says walls do not work? Just curious as I do. Wall in San Diego  has 2 arrests per week versus 20 per day before wall. Same type of stats for Texas wall areas. My friend is now retired and has no reason to bs. Wont stop all the crossings but will most certainly stem the tide big time.

[xtralettucetomatoe580]

27 minutes ago, J. Jackson said:

Does anyone against the wall know a higher level Border Patrol official or actually have facts that says walls do not work? Just curious as I do. Wall in San Diego  has 2 arrests per week versus 20 per day before wall. Same type of stats for Texas wall areas. My friend is now retired and has no reason to bs. Wont stop all the crossings but will most certainly stem the tide big time.

The question that needs to be answered to this statement is pretty key. Are they crossing at other locations? Currently only 1/3 is fenced or walled. You throw up a couple miles of wall/fence, what stops them from crossing elsewhere without a barrier? My issue is with manning this wall. 1954 miles is a huge area to patrol without a significant presence. Even if you wall the whole thing, all walls can be breached without a person defending it. That expanse is just so large to do so. 

People keep bringing up prisons, the whitehouse, etc. Those are all small areas where each inch can be monitored and responded to instantly. 1954 miles, not so much. Not to mention the fact that the federal govt will have to use eminent domain on thousands upon thousands of acres of private and state held land. That bill is going to be astronomical. 

If Trump said we were going to do limited fence, and increase the means of monitoring the whole stretch, I’d be ok with that. That means, UAVs, men, vehicles, satellites, etc. If it takes border control 30 mins to respond to a breach due to terrain and distance from their location to the breach, what good is a fence that slows someone down a couple mins? They still have 20+ mins head start instead of 30. Is that worth the cost of the physical structure? I’d say no. That’s why most Texas Republicans not running for federal office are huge naysayers on the wall. 

Edited January 1, 2019 by xtralettucetomatoe580

[AKIQPilot]

12 minutes ago, xtralettucetomatoe580 said:

The question that needs to be answered to this statement is pretty key. Are they crossing at other locations? Currently only 1/3 is fenced or walled. You throw up a couple miles of wall/fence, what stops them from crossing elsewhere without a barrier? My issue is with manning this wall. 1954 miles is a huge area to patrol without a significant presence. Even if you wall the whole thing, all walls can be breached without a person defending it. That expanse is just so large to do so. 

People keep bringing up prisons, the whitehouse, etc. Those are all small areas where each inch can be monitored and responded to instantly. 1954 miles, not so much. Not to mention the fact that the federal govt will have to use eminent domain on thousands upon thousands of acres of private and state held land. That bill is going to be astronomical. 

If Trump said we were going to do limited fence, and increase the means of monitoring the whole stretch, I’d be ok with that. That means, UAVs, men, vehicles, satellites, etc. If it takes border control 30 mins to respond to a breach due to terrain and distance from their location to the breach, what good is a fence that slows someone down a couple mins? They still have 20+ mins head start instead of 30. Is that worth the cost of the physical structure? I’d say no. That’s why most Texas Republicans not running for federal office are huge naysayers on the wall. 

Why do you prefer a fence over a wall?  Expense?  What other reason could it be.  

[snopro31]

Its amazing how many hate border walls but have housing walls

 

Oh well.

[washedupmxer]

All the accomplishments man has made and he can't build a barrier that works? 

Rocket's to Mars? Sure. People living on a space station? Yep.

Wall? No fucking way! Can't be done!

[xtralettucetomatoe580]

12 minutes ago, AKIQPilot said:

Why do you prefer a fence over a wall?  Expense?  What other reason could it be.  

Fence or wall really don’t matter to me. Same outcome. It slows but doesn’t prevent. The issue at hand is does it slow enough for a border agent response. At the length of the expanse and the lack of men, I’d say no. 

9 minutes ago, snopro31 said:

Its amazing how many hate border walls but have housing walls

 

Oh well.

See, this is why we can’t have a decent debate on the subject. You bring up a false equivalency that has zero to do with the issue at hand at the US southern border. I already addressed why prison walls, “house” walls (whatever made you say that....), and fences in your yard are different. It’s about management of those walls with the labor to interdict someone crossing it. Without that, that fence is useless.

Let me make an analogy for you. If you put a million dollars on the other side of your front door, and you told everyone the quickest response to the breaching of your house “wall” was 30 mins, is that million dollars there when you get to your house? 

 

[xtralettucetomatoe580]

Just now, washedupmxer said:

All the accomplishments man has made and he can't build a barrier that works? 

Rocket's to Mars? Sure. People living on a space station? Yep.

Wall? No fucking way! Can't be done!

It’s not about the wall. The issue is with how to manage the wall. We could build a 200’ ice wall like in Game of Thrones or that surrounds our flat earth. Guess what? Without the resources (people to guard the wall) equally and liberally applied down the whole stretch, man will find a way to cross it. Not to mention that the southern border is not the main stream of illegal immigrants, so why apply a boondoggles worth of money to a wall that isn’t even the cause of our issue...

[steve from amherst]

Just now, xtralettucetomatoe580 said:

It’s not about the wall. The issue is with how to manage the wall. We could build a 200’ ice wall like in Game of Thrones or that surrounds our flat earth. Guess what? Without the resources (people to guard the wall) equally and liberally applied down the whole stretch, man will find a way to cross it. Not to mention that the southern border is not the main stream of illegal immigrants, so why apply a boondoggles worth of money to a wall that isn’t even the cause of our issue...

Even if it was ( It may be , I do not know ) It wouldn't be once a wall was built. If the gvmt has no desire to work this problem from the demand end it will continue no matter what we do.

[washedupmxer]

1 minute ago, xtralettucetomatoe580 said:

It’s not about the wall. The issue is with how to manage the wall. We could build a 200’ ice wall like in Game of Thrones or that surrounds our flat earth. Guess what? Without the resources (people to guard the wall) equally and liberally applied down the whole stretch, man will find a way to cross it. Not to mention that the southern border is not the main stream of illegal immigrants, so why apply a boondoggles worth of money to a wall that isn’t even the cause of our issue...

So now you're saying a wall could work but it will take more recourses than no wall? 

You do realize a visa overstay is less dangerous and costly than a border jumper correct? 

[xtralettucetomatoe580]

Just now, steve from amherst said:

Even if it was ( It may be , I do not know ) It wouldn't be once a wall was built. If the gvmt has no desire to work this problem from the demand end it will continue no matter what we do.

As long as we are prosperous and those south of us are not, they will want to come. You’re right, if you wanted to solve it, you’d fine to hell or jail any employer who hires illegals. Obviously, no one has the spine to do that. Instead, we make the illegals the enemy and cause of the problem. We all truly know it isn’t. 

[steve from amherst]

2 minutes ago, xtralettucetomatoe580 said:

As long as we are prosperous and those south of us are not, they will want to come. You’re right, if you wanted to solve it, you’d fine to hell or jail any employer who hires illegals. Obviously, no one has the spine to do that. Instead, we make the illegals the enemy and cause of the problem. We all truly know it isn’t. 

That is the only answer. No one in gvmt has the balls to even try. So instead we debate on spending the equivilant of 1000 bridge or school rebuilds . Or better yet , paying down the fucking debt.

Edited January 1, 2019 by steve from amherst

[xtralettucetomatoe580]

Just now, washedupmxer said:

So now you're saying a wall could work but it will take more recourses than no wall? 

You do realize a visa overstay is less dangerous and costly than a border jumper correct? 

Of course a wall would work. I’ve never said it wouldn’t. But for it to work, we would have to militarize it and the expense would be so vast that I would then question at what cost are we doing this? My issue is with the current plan. The current plan is for moderate increases in assets to defend the wall and a big glorious wall running east to west along the whole border. That cost is absolutely ridiculous. Don’t build another square inch of wall or fence. Spend every penny on manpower and tech. I’d be ok with that. That at least has tangible value. A wall is a speed bump designed to slow a crosser down enough or funnel them to resources that can capture. 

[washedupmxer]

Michigan has a lot of fruit farms one company runs almost of the migrant work all legal. 

I think trades is where you see more illigals driving down wages...most fruit pickers are legal around here anyway

[steve from amherst]

2 minutes ago, washedupmxer said:

Michigan has a lot of fruit farms one company runs almost of the migrant work all legal. 

I think trades is where you see more illigals driving down wages...most fruit pickers are legal around here anyway

In Texas, an estimated 400,000 construction workers reside illegally, according to one study

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/article/Texas-builders-fear-fallout-of-immigration-10959823.php

 

[washedupmxer]

1 minute ago, xtralettucetomatoe580 said:

Of course a wall would work. I’ve never said it wouldn’t. But for it to work, we would have to militarize it and the expense would be so vast that I would then question at what cost are we doing this? My issue is with the current plan. The current plan is for moderate increases in assets to defend the wall and a big glorious wall running east to west along the whole border. That cost is absolutely ridiculous. Don’t build another square inch of wall or fence. Spend every penny on manpower and tech. I’d be ok with that. That at least has tangible value. A wall is a speed bump designed to slow a crosser down enough or funnel them to resources that can capture. 

I've seen some studies on it and the border is literally in peoples back yards and many areas I have no idea how it would work...

That being said we need an enforceable border period

Either that or start checking papers at check points. I'd prefer a border enforced. 

[xtralettucetomatoe580]

1 minute ago, washedupmxer said:

Michigan has a lot of fruit farms one company runs almost of the migrant work all legal. 

I think trades is where you see more illigals driving down wages...most fruit pickers are legal around here anyway

They are hurting trades to an extent. There isn’t a huge market for it here, but in other spots I bet it is. Pretty easy to solve. Fine any homeowner who hires illegals to work on their home. How can they tell? Make it illegal to hire anyone without insurance. 

[snopro31]

13 minutes ago, xtralettucetomatoe580 said:

Fence or wall really don’t matter to me. Same outcome. It slows but doesn’t prevent. The issue at hand is does it slow enough for a border agent response. At the length of the expanse and the lack of men, I’d say no. 

See, this is why we can’t have a decent debate on the subject. You bring up a false equivalency that has zero to do with the issue at hand at the US southern border. I already addressed why prison walls, “house” walls (whatever made you say that....), and fences in your yard are different. It’s about management of those walls with the labor to interdict someone crossing it. Without that, that fence is useless.

Let me make an analogy for you. If you put a million dollars on the other side of your front door, and you told everyone the quickest response to the breaching of your house “wall” was 30 mins, is that million dollars there when you get to your house? 

 

Whats false about it?

Many that oppose the border wall have a border wall around their property.  You don't like it when common sense logic is used in a debate.  All the walls have the same purpose.  Keep people out and in.  That is it. 

You can continue to think they are different when in fact they are the EXACT same. 

 

You can't sit there and say a wall is terrible yet be surrounded by a wall on your property.  That is comical at best. 

Thats like people saying everyone needs to cut their carbon emissions as they walk onto a private jet.

Do as I say not as I do.

[xtralettucetomatoe580]

1 minute ago, washedupmxer said:

I've seen some studies on it and the border is literally in peoples back yards and many areas I have no idea how it would work...

That being said we need an enforceable border period

Either that or start checking papers at check points. I'd prefer a border enforced. 

Steve said it best. There is only one solution. Reduce demand. Gotta go after those who hire illegals and white middle class who hire them to do their dirty work and trade needs.

[steve from amherst]

2 minutes ago, snopro31 said:

Whats false about it?

Many that oppose the border wall have a border wall around their property.  You don't like it when common sense logic is used in a debate.  All the walls have the same purpose.  Keep people out and in.  That is it. 

You can continue to think they are different when in fact they are the EXACT same. 

 

You can't sit there and say a wall is terrible yet be surrounded by a wall on your property.  That is comical at best. 

Thats like people saying everyone needs to cut their carbon emissions as they walk onto a private jet.

Do as I say not as I do.

By this theory, there would be no such things as homes burglarized.

[xtralettucetomatoe580]

1 minute ago, snopro31 said:

Whats false about it?

Many that oppose the border wall have a border wall around their property.  You don't like it when common sense logic is used in a debate.  All the walls have the same purpose.  Keep people out and in.  That is it. 

You can continue to think they are different when in fact they are the EXACT same. 

 

You can't sit there and say a wall is terrible yet be surrounded by a wall on your property.  That is comical at best. 

Thats like people saying everyone needs to cut their carbon emissions as they walk onto a private jet.

Do as I say not as I do.

Did you read anything I wrote? Are you illiterate? I made my case with actual logic. Walls and fences mean nothing if they aren’t enforceable. You’re fucking house walls mean nothing if there is zero threat of repercussion for breaching them aka police aka you there with a gun. My analogy made it crystal clear. Put a million dollars in your house and tell everyone that no one can possibly be there for 30 mins. See if that money is still there. Do you need me to get out some crayons and Barney this shit up some more for you? Use stupid logical fallacies and get treated like you’re stupid. Jesus fuck..

[steve from amherst]

2 minutes ago, xtralettucetomatoe580 said:

Steve said it best. There is only one solution. Reduce demand. Gotta go after those who hire illegals and white middle class who hire them to do their dirty work and trade needs.

Good luck with that " dammit Im American , I have a god given right to have my house cleaned for $20 and my lawn cut for $25"