Deephaven Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 1 minute ago, XCR1250 said: Steve Hench · Former Chief Scientist, Alternative Energy Solutions at SAIC (2008–2011)7y Can you run car engine 100% on hydrogen? Yes you can. Engines can be modified to operate on 100% H2. Can, but why? Way less efficient and less safe. The electric motor is here to stay. There is a shit ton of research on power sources and basically none on propulsion sources. Tells a story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XCR1250 Posted February 29 Author Share Posted February 29 Cummins Newsroom: CAN AN ENGINE RUN ON HYDROGEN? Jun 09, 2023 by Jim Nebergall, General Manager of the Hydrogen Engine Business Your hydrogen questions answered Companies working to achieve their decarbonization goals are increasingly interested in hydrogen engines. Over the past year, leading companies like Tata Motors, Buhler Industries and Werner Enterprises have expressed interest in Cummins 15-liter hydrogen engine. More leading companies can take advantage of hydrogen-powered solutions to decarbonize as these technologies become more cost-friendly and widely available. IS THERE AN ENGINE THAT RUNS ON HYDROGEN? Yes. Hydrogen internal combustion engines (hydrogen ICE) work similarly to diesel engines. Hydrogen is burned in the same way a traditional internal combustion engine burns gasoline or diesel. Hydrogen engines have near zero emissions, and they don’t emit soot or volatile organic compounds. In fact, hydrogen engines can deliver over 99% reduction in carbon emissions compared to diesel. It’s considered a zero-carbon technology. Cummins is leading the way in the transportation industry with its hydrogen internal combustion engines. These engines are being developed with current vehicle designs in mind and aim to make the transition to hydrogen simple for OEMs and their customers. Cummins’ fuel-agnostic platform includes both a 15-liter and 6.7-liter hydrogen engine. This offers the benefits of a common-base architecture and low-to-zero carbon fuel capability. So, will we ever see a hydrogen truck anytime soon? The 15-liter hydrogen internal combustion engine is expected to reach full production in 2027. To date, Cummins has debuted two hydrogen ICE concept trucks. One was a heavy-duty concept truck featuring the X15H, and the other was a medium-duty concept truck powered by the B6.7H. Both concepts truck replicates a feasible vehicle production and demonstrates an easy integration fit with no impact on payload or space requirements. The heavy-duty truck is expected to have an operating range of more than 500 miles and reach 500 HP. It has a 700 bar pressure 80kg high-capacity hydrogen storage system. This medium-duty engine is expected to reach around 290 HP and 1200Nm peak torque. Cummins is aiming for similar performance characteristics of a diesel engine that are compatible with existing transmissions, drivelines and cooling packages. DO HYDROGEN ENGINES NEED SPARK PLUGS? Yes. Hydrogen ICE needs spark plugs. The hydrogen combustion process is similar to engines that use natural gas, or gasoline. Hydrogen is stored in high-pressure tanks and is fed into the engine's combustion chamber where it is mixed with air. A spark plug ignites the mix, which rapidly combusts. The pressure created in the combustion chamber moves the pistons, which drives the crankshaft, causing a rotating motion. Because of the need for spark plugs, it is crucial to follow the recommended maintenance intervals, which may differ from those of diesel vehicles. CAN DIESEL ENGINES RUN ON HYDROGEN? No. While vehicles with diesel ICEs share a lot in common with hydrogen ICEs, a diesel ICE cannot run on hydrogen alone. Diesel ICEs operate on a compression-ignition cycle, and thus, feature no spark plugs. Whereas, hydrogen ICEs operate on a spark-ignition, and as such, require spark plugs to ignite fuel. Additionally, H2-ICEs incorporate a number of features that are required for safe and efficient operation. This includes high-pressure storage tanks which undergo rigorous industry standard testing and certification. Cummins and NPROXX announced a joint venture to deliver industry-leading hydrogen storage options. The two engines also have very different exhaust aftertreatment systems. A diesel ICE exhaust system is designed to reduce NOx and particulate matter emissions. In contrast, a hydrogen ICE exhaust system is simpler because of the lower NOx and virtually no particulate matter emissions. WHAT ARE THE SIMILARITIES BETWEEN DIESEL AND HYDROGEN ENGINES? Diesel and hydrogen engines do have similarities, though. To take full advantage of the similarity between these engines and to create optimal solutions for its customers, Cummins is developing fuel-agnostic engine platforms. These platforms consist of a base engine architecture around which a set of engines optimized for different fuels can be built. Each engine will then operate using a single fuel. This approach makes it easier for OEMs to offer versions of the same vehicle operating on different fuels. End-users operating mixed-fuel fleets also benefit from using engines derived from the same platform. The high degree of parts commonality, for example, makes it easier to manage parts inventory and communize on maintenance practices. Customer interest in hydrogen engines is growing. Companies and fleets that use Cummins’ fuel-agnostic engine technology will be well-positioned to transition to a hydrogen-powered fleet as hydrogen fuel becomes a more widely available. Though hydrogen vehicles will use different fueling systems and onboard storage for hydrogen, mechanics and drivers will already have some familiarity with the engines. This journey to adopting hydrogen-fueled vehicles is much more economical than starting from scratch. Cummins stands ready to partner with customers interested in transitioning to hydrogen-powered vehicles and helping them decarbonize and achieve their environmental goals. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 44 minutes ago, XCR1250 said: Cummins Newsroom: CAN AN ENGINE RUN ON HYDROGEN? Jun 09, 2023 by Jim Nebergall, General Manager of the Hydrogen Engine Business Your hydrogen questions answered Companies working to achieve their decarbonization goals are increasingly interested in hydrogen engines. Over the past year, leading companies like Tata Motors, Buhler Industries and Werner Enterprises have expressed interest in Cummins 15-liter hydrogen engine. More leading companies can take advantage of hydrogen-powered solutions to decarbonize as these technologies become more cost-friendly and widely available. IS THERE AN ENGINE THAT RUNS ON HYDROGEN? Yes. Hydrogen internal combustion engines (hydrogen ICE) work similarly to diesel engines. Hydrogen is burned in the same way a traditional internal combustion engine burns gasoline or diesel. Hydrogen engines have near zero emissions, and they don’t emit soot or volatile organic compounds. In fact, hydrogen engines can deliver over 99% reduction in carbon emissions compared to diesel. It’s considered a zero-carbon technology. Cummins is leading the way in the transportation industry with its hydrogen internal combustion engines. These engines are being developed with current vehicle designs in mind and aim to make the transition to hydrogen simple for OEMs and their customers. Cummins’ fuel-agnostic platform includes both a 15-liter and 6.7-liter hydrogen engine. This offers the benefits of a common-base architecture and low-to-zero carbon fuel capability. So, will we ever see a hydrogen truck anytime soon? The 15-liter hydrogen internal combustion engine is expected to reach full production in 2027. To date, Cummins has debuted two hydrogen ICE concept trucks. One was a heavy-duty concept truck featuring the X15H, and the other was a medium-duty concept truck powered by the B6.7H. Both concepts truck replicates a feasible vehicle production and demonstrates an easy integration fit with no impact on payload or space requirements. The heavy-duty truck is expected to have an operating range of more than 500 miles and reach 500 HP. It has a 700 bar pressure 80kg high-capacity hydrogen storage system. This medium-duty engine is expected to reach around 290 HP and 1200Nm peak torque. Cummins is aiming for similar performance characteristics of a diesel engine that are compatible with existing transmissions, drivelines and cooling packages. DO HYDROGEN ENGINES NEED SPARK PLUGS? Yes. Hydrogen ICE needs spark plugs. The hydrogen combustion process is similar to engines that use natural gas, or gasoline. Hydrogen is stored in high-pressure tanks and is fed into the engine's combustion chamber where it is mixed with air. A spark plug ignites the mix, which rapidly combusts. The pressure created in the combustion chamber moves the pistons, which drives the crankshaft, causing a rotating motion. Because of the need for spark plugs, it is crucial to follow the recommended maintenance intervals, which may differ from those of diesel vehicles. CAN DIESEL ENGINES RUN ON HYDROGEN? No. While vehicles with diesel ICEs share a lot in common with hydrogen ICEs, a diesel ICE cannot run on hydrogen alone. Diesel ICEs operate on a compression-ignition cycle, and thus, feature no spark plugs. Whereas, hydrogen ICEs operate on a spark-ignition, and as such, require spark plugs to ignite fuel. Additionally, H2-ICEs incorporate a number of features that are required for safe and efficient operation. This includes high-pressure storage tanks which undergo rigorous industry standard testing and certification. Cummins and NPROXX announced a joint venture to deliver industry-leading hydrogen storage options. The two engines also have very different exhaust aftertreatment systems. A diesel ICE exhaust system is designed to reduce NOx and particulate matter emissions. In contrast, a hydrogen ICE exhaust system is simpler because of the lower NOx and virtually no particulate matter emissions. WHAT ARE THE SIMILARITIES BETWEEN DIESEL AND HYDROGEN ENGINES? Diesel and hydrogen engines do have similarities, though. To take full advantage of the similarity between these engines and to create optimal solutions for its customers, Cummins is developing fuel-agnostic engine platforms. These platforms consist of a base engine architecture around which a set of engines optimized for different fuels can be built. Each engine will then operate using a single fuel. This approach makes it easier for OEMs to offer versions of the same vehicle operating on different fuels. End-users operating mixed-fuel fleets also benefit from using engines derived from the same platform. The high degree of parts commonality, for example, makes it easier to manage parts inventory and communize on maintenance practices. Customer interest in hydrogen engines is growing. Companies and fleets that use Cummins’ fuel-agnostic engine technology will be well-positioned to transition to a hydrogen-powered fleet as hydrogen fuel becomes a more widely available. Though hydrogen vehicles will use different fueling systems and onboard storage for hydrogen, mechanics and drivers will already have some familiarity with the engines. This journey to adopting hydrogen-fueled vehicles is much more economical than starting from scratch. Cummins stands ready to partner with customers interested in transitioning to hydrogen-powered vehicles and helping them decarbonize and achieve their environmental goals. Are a lot of manufacturers working on developing this tech right now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XCR1250 Posted February 29 Author Share Posted February 29 9 minutes ago, HSR said: Are a lot of manufacturers working on developing this tech right now? Yes, all over the World..search Google or Bing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deephaven Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 Yes, for big trucks not cars. Completely different application. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XCR1250 Posted February 29 Author Share Posted February 29 14 minutes ago, Deephaven said: Yes, for big trucks not cars. Completely different application. Look it up, autos & pickups too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teamgreen02 Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 1 hour ago, XCR1250 said: Cummins Newsroom: CAN AN ENGINE RUN ON HYDROGEN? Jun 09, 2023 by Jim Nebergall, General Manager of the Hydrogen Engine Business Your hydrogen questions answered Companies working to achieve their decarbonization goals are increasingly interested in hydrogen engines. Over the past year, leading companies like Tata Motors, Buhler Industries and Werner Enterprises have expressed interest in Cummins 15-liter hydrogen engine. More leading companies can take advantage of hydrogen-powered solutions to decarbonize as these technologies become more cost-friendly and widely available. IS THERE AN ENGINE THAT RUNS ON HYDROGEN? Yes. Hydrogen internal combustion engines (hydrogen ICE) work similarly to diesel engines. Hydrogen is burned in the same way a traditional internal combustion engine burns gasoline or diesel. Hydrogen engines have near zero emissions, and they don’t emit soot or volatile organic compounds. In fact, hydrogen engines can deliver over 99% reduction in carbon emissions compared to diesel. It’s considered a zero-carbon technology. Cummins is leading the way in the transportation industry with its hydrogen internal combustion engines. These engines are being developed with current vehicle designs in mind and aim to make the transition to hydrogen simple for OEMs and their customers. Cummins’ fuel-agnostic platform includes both a 15-liter and 6.7-liter hydrogen engine. This offers the benefits of a common-base architecture and low-to-zero carbon fuel capability. So, will we ever see a hydrogen truck anytime soon? The 15-liter hydrogen internal combustion engine is expected to reach full production in 2027. To date, Cummins has debuted two hydrogen ICE concept trucks. One was a heavy-duty concept truck featuring the X15H, and the other was a medium-duty concept truck powered by the B6.7H. Both concepts truck replicates a feasible vehicle production and demonstrates an easy integration fit with no impact on payload or space requirements. The heavy-duty truck is expected to have an operating range of more than 500 miles and reach 500 HP. It has a 700 bar pressure 80kg high-capacity hydrogen storage system. This medium-duty engine is expected to reach around 290 HP and 1200Nm peak torque. Cummins is aiming for similar performance characteristics of a diesel engine that are compatible with existing transmissions, drivelines and cooling packages. DO HYDROGEN ENGINES NEED SPARK PLUGS? Yes. Hydrogen ICE needs spark plugs. The hydrogen combustion process is similar to engines that use natural gas, or gasoline. Hydrogen is stored in high-pressure tanks and is fed into the engine's combustion chamber where it is mixed with air. A spark plug ignites the mix, which rapidly combusts. The pressure created in the combustion chamber moves the pistons, which drives the crankshaft, causing a rotating motion. Because of the need for spark plugs, it is crucial to follow the recommended maintenance intervals, which may differ from those of diesel vehicles. CAN DIESEL ENGINES RUN ON HYDROGEN? No. While vehicles with diesel ICEs share a lot in common with hydrogen ICEs, a diesel ICE cannot run on hydrogen alone. Diesel ICEs operate on a compression-ignition cycle, and thus, feature no spark plugs. Whereas, hydrogen ICEs operate on a spark-ignition, and as such, require spark plugs to ignite fuel. Additionally, H2-ICEs incorporate a number of features that are required for safe and efficient operation. This includes high-pressure storage tanks which undergo rigorous industry standard testing and certification. Cummins and NPROXX announced a joint venture to deliver industry-leading hydrogen storage options. The two engines also have very different exhaust aftertreatment systems. A diesel ICE exhaust system is designed to reduce NOx and particulate matter emissions. In contrast, a hydrogen ICE exhaust system is simpler because of the lower NOx and virtually no particulate matter emissions. WHAT ARE THE SIMILARITIES BETWEEN DIESEL AND HYDROGEN ENGINES? Diesel and hydrogen engines do have similarities, though. To take full advantage of the similarity between these engines and to create optimal solutions for its customers, Cummins is developing fuel-agnostic engine platforms. These platforms consist of a base engine architecture around which a set of engines optimized for different fuels can be built. Each engine will then operate using a single fuel. This approach makes it easier for OEMs to offer versions of the same vehicle operating on different fuels. End-users operating mixed-fuel fleets also benefit from using engines derived from the same platform. The high degree of parts commonality, for example, makes it easier to manage parts inventory and communize on maintenance practices. Customer interest in hydrogen engines is growing. Companies and fleets that use Cummins’ fuel-agnostic engine technology will be well-positioned to transition to a hydrogen-powered fleet as hydrogen fuel becomes a more widely available. Though hydrogen vehicles will use different fueling systems and onboard storage for hydrogen, mechanics and drivers will already have some familiarity with the engines. This journey to adopting hydrogen-fueled vehicles is much more economical than starting from scratch. Cummins stands ready to partner with customers interested in transitioning to hydrogen-powered vehicles and helping them decarbonize and achieve their environmental goals. Hydrogen combustion engines have been all the rage at the shows and in trade publications the last few years. There was never really a technology gap there. The issue has always been sourcing the hydrogen in the H2 gas form. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Member BOHICA Posted February 29 Gold Member Share Posted February 29 Hydrogen can’t be economically stored or reliable infrastructure to make it economical for auto transportation. But some will insist I guess to keeping people dependent on others for there transportation emissions. Good way to control people is have them buy energy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Skidooski Posted February 29 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted February 29 Porsche is still in Hydrogen car development aren't they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ActionfigureJoe Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 Hydrogen is a nightmare to secure, store, and transfer. It’ll never become a mainstream energy source due to these reasons. I see Toyota developing a IC motor that runs on gasoline which is near 100% Co2 and pollutant free. It’s coming. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 4 hours ago, Deephaven said: Lol, no one is doing any real research on using hydrogen as a fuel source without an electric motor. EVs are here to stay. The battery may go away, but not the electric motor. Didn’t Toyota just compete in a 24 hour race with an internal combustion hydrogen car Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deephaven Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 2 hours ago, XCR1250 said: Look it up, autos & pickups too. I work with the manu's on these. For things that are always loaded the combustion versions are interesting, the rest they are focusing more on fuel cell work with electric motors. By subsidized focus they have no choice but to research both, but what will come out of it is electric cars for the normal person with something different than the battery. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 1 hour ago, BOHICA said: Hydrogen can’t be economically stored or reliable infrastructure to make it economical for auto transportation. But some will insist I guess to keeping people dependent on others for there transportation emissions. Good way to control people is have them buy energy We had a 9 bank hydrogen storage facility where I worked and had tanker trucks deliver it about every 2 months depending on how much the plant operated. Generator cooling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ActionfigureJoe Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 Just now, Rod said: Didn’t Toyota just compete in a 24 hour race with an internal combustion hydrogen car Toyota deep six’d their hydrogen car. Their research continues in order to develop a point A to point B commercial vehicle that runs on hydrogen. It’s also useful research for a future fuel cell vehicle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 11 minutes ago, ActionfigureJoe said: Hydrogen is a nightmare to secure, store, and transfer. It’ll never become a mainstream energy source due to these reasons. I see Toyota developing a IC motor that runs on gasoline which is near 100% Co2 and pollutant free. It’s coming. Hydrogen has its challenges for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deephaven Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 8 minutes ago, Rod said: Didn’t Toyota just compete in a 24 hour race with an internal combustion hydrogen car 10 laps per 7 minute fueling. A battery swap would be faster. Just further proof of concept. Not their focus for consumer vehicles. Obviously some technical breakthrough could change that but not seeing it atm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XCR1250 Posted February 29 Author Share Posted February 29 14 minutes ago, ActionfigureJoe said: Toyota deep six’d their hydrogen car. Their research continues in order to develop a point A to point B commercial vehicle that runs on hydrogen. It’s also useful research for a future fuel cell vehicle. https://www.thedrive.com/news/toyotas-hydrogen-dreams-are-attracting-major-ice-tech-suppliers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XCR1250 Posted February 29 Author Share Posted February 29 https://www.carscoops.com/2023/03/toyota-to-continue-hydrogen-development-despite-shifting-main-focus-to-evs/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MILFMAN Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 39 minutes ago, HSR said: We had a 9 bank hydrogen storage facility where I worked and had tanker trucks deliver it about every 2 months depending on how much the plant operated. Generator cooling. Yes. The power plants I have worked at all have hydrogen cooled generators. That has been around a longggg time. There are a few GE 7FA gas turbines in hydrogen fuel burning trials now. One is in Texas. I forget where the other is. That is much more likely feasible then setting up hydrogen fuel stations for residential autos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 9 minutes ago, MILFMAN said: Yes. The power plants I have worked at all have hydrogen cooled generators. That has been around a longggg time. There are a few GE 7FA gas turbines in hydrogen fuel burning trials now. One is in Texas. I forget where the other is. That is much more likely feasible then setting up hydrogen fuel stations for residential autos. I opened the metal cabinet containing the pressure/flow regulators and had the doors blown right out of my hands, static discharge plus a slight leak. Ears were ringing for hours even with ear plugs in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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