The Myth of NATO Provocations

[DriftBusta]

7 minutes ago, f7ben said:

You are a fucking retard. Your entire way of thinking is retarded. I can’t help you anymore. 

I'll take my outlook over your dark, cynical negative world view any day thanks.  EJ is hiring if you think you're up to it.  I'm making some serious bank for being a retard.      Save your insults, we've all heard them 1000 times before.

6 minutes ago, Angry ginger said:

we spent almost 50 years staring at each other with both our triggers on the nukes.  call it defense but it's still all about PREVENTING war.   

Fixed your quote

[Anler]

6 minutes ago, DriftBusta said:

Seriously, tell us all about your educational credentials as it relates to the history of WWII.   Come on, you need to drop that "I'm here to educate all you rubes" trope, you do it often.  

You need my smart papers? Oh sorry I dont have them but I have been a life long student of history and I can base any of my claims on the results of recent history which you have been about 100% wrong on pretty much all of it. All of the presidential candidates you have previously endorsed you turned on (with the exception of Trump) all of the wars you supported turned out to be a big fucking lie. All of the spending you supported as "good policy" was theft and inflationary and now you sell financial products for the ESG king whom you also denounce.  I will stand on my history.

[akvanden]

1 minute ago, Highmark said:

 

Doesn't change the fact that its mere existence creates tension and greatly contributed to the money spent during the cold war.  There are lots of reports that NATO promised Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union there would be no further eastward expansion then added 14 more countries that direction.   If that's not a provocation then what is.  SMH. 

So we've got the 'mere existence' and then we actually have the country it was formed for ACTUALLY invading countries. Everyone knows, you guys included, that NATO is not invading and annexing Russian land. 

 

[DriftBusta]

Just now, Anler said:

You need my smart papers? Oh sorry I dont have them but I have been a life long student of history and I can base any of my claims on the results of recent history which you have been about 100% wrong on pretty much all of it. All of the presidential candidates you have previously endorsed you turned on (with the exception of Trump) all of the wars you supported turned out to be a big fucking lie. All of the spending you supported as "good policy" was theft and inflationary and now you sell financial products for the ESG king whom you also denounce.  I will stand on my history.

You sound butthurt.  

[Highmark]

4 minutes ago, akvanden said:

So we've got the 'mere existence' and then we actually have the country it was formed for ACTUALLY invading countries. Everyone knows, you guys included, that NATO is not invading and annexing Russian land. 

 

Dude I'm not now nor ever has claimed Russia isn't aggressively moving on Ukraine now under Biden or that it didn't under Obama in 2014.   It has a record even before the fall of the USSR of being aggressive militarily.  Doesn't change the fact that when countries align together specifically to "defend" themselves against one specific enemy that it will be taken as a provocation.   What do you say about NATO's eastward expansion after promising Russia it wouldn't?  

What do you think we would say if China, Vietnam, Venezuela, Cuba, Iran and other countries formed a defensive organization solely against the US?  Do you think we would take that as a provocation?

Edited April 15, 2022 by Highmark

[ViperGTS/Z1]

Glory to Ukraine and the heroes fighting the good fight!....May they prevail!!....

[Anler]

5 minutes ago, Highmark said:

 

Doesn't change the fact that its mere existence creates tension and greatly contributed to the money spent during the cold war.  There are lots of reports that NATO promised Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union there would be no further eastward expansion then added 14 more countries that direction.   If that's not a provocation then what is.  SMH. 

Funny how when we or NATO builds up the military its for "defense" but when anyone else does its offense.    

The Monroe doctrine forbids any occupation of the western hemisphere. Any occupation whatsoever in the western hemisphere by Russia would be a declaration of war. yet NATO has militarized almost every country on Russia's border. Seems a little hypocritical to anyone who is paying attention. And even NATO knows this hence the efforts by several NATO countries to work towards a peace settlement between Russia and Ukraine. Not to mention the west staged a violent coup in Ukraine. Why would they do that? 

[Anler]

4 minutes ago, DriftBusta said:

You sound butthurt.  

Nope just tryna stop you psychopaths from fucking up the world. 

[DriftBusta]

Just now, Highmark said:

Dude I'm not now nor ever has claimed Russia isn't aggressively moving on Ukraine now under Biden or that it didn't under Obama in 2014.   It has a record even before the fall of the USSR of being aggressive militarily.  Doesn't change the fact that when countries align together specifically to "defend" themselves against one specific enemy that it will be taken as a provocation.   What do you say about NATO's eastward expansion after promising Russia it wouldn't?  

Same thing I'd say about Putin violating the agreement it had that had Ukraine giving up their nukes.  If you're of the mindset that the US iand NATO are malevolent actors, then your argument would hold water.  I don't believe that the US and NATO are malevolent actors. 

[Highmark]

1 minute ago, Anler said:

The Monroe doctrine forbids any occupation of the western hemisphere. Any occupation whatsoever in the western hemisphere by Russia would be a declaration of war. yet NATO has militarized almost every country on Russia's border. Seems a little hypocritical to anyone who is paying attention. And even NATO knows this hence the efforts by several NATO countries to work towards a peace settlement between Russia and Ukraine. Not to mention the west staged a violent coup in Ukraine. Why would they do that? 

Yep.  Yet any thoughts of this and all of a sudden you are Pro Russia.  SMH.  

[f7ben]

10 minutes ago, DriftBusta said:

I'll take my outlook over your dark, cynical negative world view any day thanks.  EJ is hiring if you think you're up to it.  I'm making some serious bank for being a retard.      Save your insults, we've all heard them 1000 times before.

Fixed your quote

I’d like to work for EJ ...maybe my back wouldn’t feel like it does if I did.

[Jimmy Snacks]

2 minutes ago, Anler said:

Nope just tryna stop you psychopaths from fucking up the world. 

Well hopefully Putin is reading here and he’ll listen to you.🤷🏻

[f7ben]

2 minutes ago, DriftBusta said:

Same thing I'd say about Putin violating the agreement it had that had Ukraine giving up their nukes.  If you're of the mindset that the US iand NATO are malevolent actors, then your argument would hold water.  I don't believe that the US and NATO are malevolent actors. 

Well they sure as fuck aren’t benevolent. This entire premise that there are good guys and bad guys is ridiculous. There is only power and money and influence and everyone wants all they can get. 

[Highmark]

2 minutes ago, DriftBusta said:

Same thing I'd say about Putin violating the agreement it had that had Ukraine giving up their nukes.  If you're of the mindset that the US iand NATO are malevolent actors, then your argument would hold water.  I don't believe that the US and NATO are malevolent actors. 

Maybe not Malevolent but when its aggressively moved eastward after promising it wouldn't its far from innocent.   Even if you don't call NATO's eastward expansion aggressive its mere existence is a threat to Russia and we would take a similar organization against us as the same.  

[Anler]

5 minutes ago, Highmark said:

Yep.  Yet any thoughts of this and all of a sudden you are Pro Russia.  SMH.  

I am not pro Russia. I really dont like Russians as a culture. I feel this is a disaster that could have been avoided with some reasonable diplomacy. We are paying the price for this and it really shouldnt have happened. But look who is in charge. 

[Anler]

14 minutes ago, DriftBusta said:

Same thing I'd say about Putin violating the agreement it had that had Ukraine giving up their nukes.  If you're of the mindset that the US iand NATO are malevolent actors, then your argument would hold water.  I don't believe that the US and NATO are malevolent actors. 

The US military is an occupying force for global corporations, and US tax payers fund their theft. You are such a history buff perhaps you know about this American who thwarted an attempted coup of the US govt years ago. And what his job was before that. 

Edited April 15, 2022 by Anler

[DriftBusta]

11 minutes ago, f7ben said:

I’d like to work for EJ ...maybe my back wouldn’t feel like it does if I did.

I took the day off yesterday to reset a bunch of pavers in the back yard.  Holy fuck, speaking of back/knee aches.

[Highmark]

2 minutes ago, Anler said:

I am not pro Russia. I really dont like Russians as a culture. I feel this is a disaster that could have been avoided with some reasonable diplomacy. We are paying the price for this and it really shouldnt have happened. But look who is in charge. 

I really don't think it could have been avoided with diplomacy.   Ukraine would have had to give up territory and I can't blame them for fighting to keep it.

[DriftBusta]

2 minutes ago, Anler said:

The US military is an occupying force for global corporations, and US tax payers fund their theft. You are such a history buff perhaps you know about this American who thwarted an attempted coup of the US govt years ago. And what his job was before that. 

Where did I say I was a "history buff"?  I've been educated plenty and read lots of my own books, trust me.  I merely pointed out that you regularly trot out your bona fides like you're FS's own Doris Kearns Goodwin, wagging your finger at all of us.  Its obnoxious as fuck.   

[Anler]

14 minutes ago, Jimmy Snacks said:

Well hopefully Putin is reading here and he’ll listen to you.🤷🏻

Here's the problem Jim. I will concede that Putin is a giant asshole and his Oligarchs are nothing more than mobsters. Where was NATO when they allowed him to grow to be the worlds richest man creating dependency of his oil and gas to Europe and the world? And Russia's agricultural exports are also widely used globally. This "all of the sudden" attempt to stop him is having major ramifications everywhere and will take years if not decades to balance out. He was all fine and dandy when they were making money off of him knowing he was this monster but now that he is being the guy they always knew he was we have to fuck up everything to stop him.

I would apply the same logic to China. The world put themselves in a position of dependency on them knowing what China was doing and now it would have major ramifications globally to attempt to back them down. We allowed them to grow into the worlds 2nd largest military and are occupying about every continent on the earth. What is NATO's solution to that problem before we have to blow to whole god damn earth up?

[Anler]

10 minutes ago, Highmark said:

I really don't think it could have been avoided with diplomacy.   Ukraine would have had to give up territory and I can't blame them for fighting to keep it.

Well we will never know will we? 

[Anler]

9 minutes ago, DriftBusta said:

Where did I say I was a "history buff"?  I've been educated plenty and read lots of my own books, trust me.  I merely pointed out that you regularly trot out your bona fides like you're FS's own Doris Kearns Goodwin, wagging your finger at all of us.  Its obnoxious as fuck.   

Perhaps you havent heard, Im kind of a big deal..  

[spin_dry]

NATO represents a strong defensive position for western powers. Western civilization still finds the need for its existence due to how Russia’s has behaved. NATO is also a 100% voluntary organization.  Russia has a 3 decade history of being aggressive towards its neighbors. Until it changes it attitude and behavior, NATO will stand. 

[Highmark]

4 minutes ago, Anler said:

Here's the problem Jim. I will concede that Putin is a giant asshole and his Oligarchs are nothing more than mobsters. Where was NATO when they allowed him to grow to be the worlds richest man creating dependency of his oil and gas to Europe and the world? And Russia's agricultural exports are also widely used globally. This "all of the sudden" attempt to stop him is having major ramifications everywhere and will take years if not decades to balance out. He was all fine and dandy when they were making money off of him knowing he was this monster but now that he is being the guy they always knew he was we have to fuck up everything to stop him.

I would apply the same logic to China. The world put themselves in a position of dependency on them knowing what China was doing and now it would have major ramifications globally to attempt to back them down. We allowed them to grow into the worlds 2nd largest military and are occupying about every continent on the earth. What is NATO's solution to that problem before we have to blow to whole god damn earth up?

Great post. 

[Highmark]

5 minutes ago, Anler said:

Well we will never know will we? 

Honestly its not very hard to figure out.   What diplomacy without land concessions could have avoided this?