The Myth of NATO Provocations

[Anler]

1 minute ago, Jimmy Snacks said:

Yeah we get it Dave….you’re right and everybody else is wrong…SMH.

Shaddup

[Highmark]

2 minutes ago, spin_dry said:

Point out one example of where NATO enacted article 5 to invade a nation and remove its government. 

NATO isn't just article 5 and I should have more specifically said NATO members.  Did you read the thread on Operation Gladio?  You honestly think that was the only operation of the sort?   You don't think the US or NATO or their members did things to try and bring down the fall of the Soviet Union, East Germany or communism in general?  

Again I'm not now nor ever was against the fight to stop communism because its more evil than Fascism, but to say NATO or the US is completely free from ALL aggression against it beyond naïve, in fact its laughable. 

[spin_dry]

Just now, Anler said:

He got what he wanted. war. He isnt a nato country and nato doesnt take down nations as you said and Ukraine isnt part of NATO so lets let Zelensky have HIS war and stay out of it. Mkay? 

NATO doesn’t take down countries in Eastern Europe. Putin does. He’s grabbed several. Yet he hasn’t tried to snatch one nato country. I wonder why? 

[Anler]

 

1 minute ago, Highmark said:

NATO isn't just article 5 and I should have more specifically said NATO members.  Did you read the thread on Operation Gladio?  You honestly think that was the only operation of the sort?   You don't think the US or NATO or their members did things to try and bring down the fall of the Soviet Union, East Germany or communism in general?  

Again I'm not now nor ever was against the fight to stop communism because its more evil than Fascism, but to say NATO or the US is completely free from ALL aggression against it beyond naïve, in fact its laughable. 

They wont read or watch anything that will challenge their talking points. I watched his videos and replied with one from the same dude he called a genius in his video and he didnt watch it. Pretty disingenuous debate here with these boomers. 

[spin_dry]

1 minute ago, Highmark said:

NATO isn't just article 5 and I should have more specifically said NATO members.  Did you read the thread on Operation Gladio?  You honestly think that was the only operation of the sort?   You don't think the US or NATO or their members did things to try and bring down the fall of the Soviet Union, East Germany or communism in general?  

Again I'm not now nor ever was against the fight to stop communism because its more evil than Fascism, but to say NATO or the US is completely free from ALL aggression against it beyond naïve, in fact its laughable. 

Operation Gladio was a program during the Soviet era and ended following the fall of the USSR. What does that have to do with now? 

[Highmark]

12 minutes ago, akvanden said:

What other choice do they have? Wing it on their own like Ukraine? Be hopeful that Russian changes its aggressive ways?

 

There was some sort of legal document where NATO stated this? Even Gorbachev stated no.

 

After the laugher died down, if their sole intensions was that of NATO, we'd know we have nothing to worry about. Or maybe we could go invade/annex Myanmar if they threatened to join. 
 

Simply stating when a group comes together specifically against one there is no way that one can't see it as aggressive.   Not really that tough of concept to comprehend.  Again USSR placed missiles on Cuba and the US rightfully freaked out.  The Soviets easily could have said "well they are for our defense only" like we do with anything militarily in Europe.  

No document that I know of however both sides have a history of lying so honestly I don't trust either side completely.

 

[Jimmy Snacks]

7 minutes ago, Anler said:

Shaddup

 

3 minutes ago, Anler said:

 

They wont read or watch anything that will challenge their talking points. I watched his videos and replied with one from the same dude he called a genius in his video and he didnt watch it. Pretty disingenuous debate here with these boomers. 

Take your own advice FFS.

[Anler]

Just now, Jimmy Snacks said:

 

Take your own advice FFS.

I am not a boomer

[Jimmy Snacks]

2 minutes ago, Highmark said:

Simply stating when a group comes together specifically against one there is no way that one can't see it as aggressive.   Not really that tough of concept to comprehend.  Again USSR placed missiles on Cuba and the US rightfully freaked out.  The Soviets easily could have said "well they are for our defense only" like we do with anything militarily in Europe.  

No document that I know of however both sides have a history of lying so honestly I don't trust either side completely.

 

I keep hearing this  but what were the specific threats to Putin and Russian that justify what he is doing in Ukraine?

Edited April 15, 2022 by Jimmy Snacks

[Highmark]

Just now, spin_dry said:

Operation Gladio was a program during the Soviet era and ended following the fall of the USSR. What does that have to do with now? 

 How exactly has NATO changed besides expansion since the Soviet Union become Russia?  

[spin_dry]

2 minutes ago, Highmark said:

Simply stating when a group comes together specifically against one there is no way that one can't see it as aggressive.   Not really that tough of concept to comprehend.  Again USSR placed missiles on Cuba and the US rightfully freaked out.  The Soviets easily could have said "well they are for our defense only" like we do with anything militarily in Europe.  

No document that I know of however both sides have a history of lying so honestly I don't trust either side completely.

 

Where in Eastern Europe has america placed strategic nukes? 

[spin_dry]

2 minutes ago, Highmark said:

 How exactly has NATO changed besides expansion since the Soviet Union become Russia?  

Why do you keep moving the goal posts and changing the context of this conversation? You cited operation Gladio. That program is long defunct. You failed to respond. 

[Anler]

1 minute ago, spin_dry said:

Operation Gladio was a program during the Soviet era and ended following the fall of the USSR. What does that have to do with now? 

The current president of the United States and his son are now (tho years later) being investigated for their fuckery in what country? Where they used real Nazis to accomplish their financial and political goals? Same president who is sending billions in weapons to Ukriaine and inflicting double digit inflation on his own country to defend his and his political and business allies endeavors? This is the biggest shit sandwich in a long time, maybe ever.

[Highmark]

Just now, Jimmy Snacks said:

Right but what were the specific threats to Putin and Russian that justify what he is doing in Ukraine?

Russia shouldn't take NATO as a threat?    What I find so amazing is how many people here feel that Russia should not take NATO as a threat simply because it hasn't acted aggressively towards it yet in a major way.  Good God. 

https://www.npr.org/2022/01/29/1076193616/ukraine-russia-nato-explainer

From the beginning, Russia strongly objected to NATO's borders creeping closer to its territory. In 1997, Russian President Boris Yeltsin tried to secure a guarantee from President Bill Clinton that NATO would not add any former Soviet republics. Clinton refused.

The U.S. hoped that its financial support, along with diplomatic overtures from NATO, could be enough to counterbalance Russia's displeasure over expansion — but ultimately, that didn't work, Goldgeier said.

Over the course of the 1990s and early 2000s, NATO expanded three times: first to add the Czech Republic, Hungary and Poland; then seven more countries even farther east, including the former Soviet republics of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania; and finally with Albania and Croatia in 2009.

"Obviously, the more it did to stabilize the situation in central and Eastern Europe and bring them into the West, the more it antagonized the Russians," he said.

Why is Ukraine important?

Ukraine, as the largest former Soviet republic in Europe besides Russia itself, has been a key part of alliance talks since it declared independence from the USSR in 1991. In the three decades since, NATO expansion has put four members on Ukraine's borders.

"The Russians were always concerned about how far NATO enlargement was going to go. It's one thing for Poland to come in, or the Czech Republic to come in. That's not such a big deal. But there was always a concern about Ukraine," Goldgeier said.

Putin himself has long said that he believes Ukrainians and Russians to be a single people, unified by language, culture and religion. In July 2021, he wrote a long essay about the "historical unity" between the two nations.

For the U.S. and its Western allies, a successful and independent Ukraine was a potent potential symbol that Russia's time as a powerful empire had come to an end.

During the early 2000s, President George W. Bush pushed for Ukraine to become a NATO member. France and Germany opposed it, fearing escalation with Russia.

The result was a "worst of all worlds" compromise in 2008, Goldgeier said: a promise that Ukraine would eventually join NATO, but without any concrete timeline or pathway to do so.

When the compromise was announced, some analysts were surprised that "there was not this major temper tantrum" from Putin and Russia, said Rose Gottemoeller, an American diplomat who served as deputy secretary general of NATO from 2016 to 2019.

"It needed another 15 years before the major temper tantrum ensued. Unfortunately, we're experiencing it now," Gottemoeller said.

 

[spin_dry]

2 minutes ago, Anler said:

The current president of the United States and his son are now (tho years later) being investigated for their fuckery in what country? Where they used real Nazis to accomplish their financial and political goals? Same president who is sending billions in weapons to Ukriaine and inflicting double digit inflation on his own country to defend his and his political and business allies endeavors? This is the biggest shit sandwich in a long time, maybe ever.

I’m still waiting for Putin to drop the hammer on the bidens. Release all the documents on hunter’s bio weapon factory and burisma business.  

[Highmark]

4 minutes ago, spin_dry said:

Why do you keep moving the goal posts and changing the context of this conversation? You cited operation Gladio. That program is long defunct. You failed to respond. 

Moving the goalposts.   

[Jimmy Snacks]

2 minutes ago, Highmark said:

Russia shouldn't take NATO as a threat?    What I find so amazing is how many people here feel that Russia should not take NATO as a threat simply because it hasn't acted aggressively towards it yet in a major way.  Good God. 

https://www.npr.org/2022/01/29/1076193616/ukraine-russia-nato-explainer

From the beginning, Russia strongly objected to NATO's borders creeping closer to its territory. In 1997, Russian President Boris Yeltsin tried to secure a guarantee from President Bill Clinton that NATO would not add any former Soviet republics. Clinton refused.

The U.S. hoped that its financial support, along with diplomatic overtures from NATO, could be enough to counterbalance Russia's displeasure over expansion — but ultimately, that didn't work, Goldgeier said.

Over the course of the 1990s and early 2000s, NATO expanded three times: first to add the Czech Republic, Hungary and Poland; then seven more countries even farther east, including the former Soviet republics of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania; and finally with Albania and Croatia in 2009.

"Obviously, the more it did to stabilize the situation in central and Eastern Europe and bring them into the West, the more it antagonized the Russians," he said.

Why is Ukraine important?

Ukraine, as the largest former Soviet republic in Europe besides Russia itself, has been a key part of alliance talks since it declared independence from the USSR in 1991. In the three decades since, NATO expansion has put four members on Ukraine's borders.

"The Russians were always concerned about how far NATO enlargement was going to go. It's one thing for Poland to come in, or the Czech Republic to come in. That's not such a big deal. But there was always a concern about Ukraine," Goldgeier said.

Putin himself has long said that he believes Ukrainians and Russians to be a single people, unified by language, culture and religion. In July 2021, he wrote a long essay about the "historical unity" between the two nations.

For the U.S. and its Western allies, a successful and independent Ukraine was a potent potential symbol that Russia's time as a powerful empire had come to an end.

During the early 2000s, President George W. Bush pushed for Ukraine to become a NATO member. France and Germany opposed it, fearing escalation with Russia.

The result was a "worst of all worlds" compromise in 2008, Goldgeier said: a promise that Ukraine would eventually join NATO, but without any concrete timeline or pathway to do so.

When the compromise was announced, some analysts were surprised that "there was not this major temper tantrum" from Putin and Russia, said Rose Gottemoeller, an American diplomat who served as deputy secretary general of NATO from 2016 to 2019.

"It needed another 15 years before the major temper tantrum ensued. Unfortunately, we're experiencing it now," Gottemoeller said.

 

 

So just the idea that Ukraine may join NATO is justification for what Putin is doing and you agree with it…got it.

[spin_dry]

Just now, Highmark said:

Moving the goalposts.   

You post horseshit and can’t back any of it up. 

[Jimmy Snacks]

Just now, spin_dry said:

You post horseshit and can’t back any of it up. 

Yeah but he posts a lot of laughing emojis.

[Highmark]

2 minutes ago, Jimmy Snacks said:

So just the idea that Ukraine may join NATO is justification for what Putin is doing and you agree with it…got it.

Jesus.   You people are mind boggling.     An explanation of why is not an agreement.   Really Jimmy are you this fucking stupid in person?  I mean I know spin is but I thought you could see off one thin line but apparently not.  

Edited April 15, 2022 by Highmark

[Anler]

1 minute ago, spin_dry said:

I’m still waiting for Putin to drop the hammer on the bidens. Release all the documents on hunter’s bio weapon factory and burisma business.  

Bursima business is not even a conspiracy. Nor is the cover up

 

[Jimmy Snacks]

3 minutes ago, Highmark said:

Jesus.   You people are mind boggling.     An explanation of why is not an agreement.   Really Jimmy are you this fucking stupid in person?   

What’s mind boggling is how you post a lot of cut and paste, laughing emojis and links but really don’t say anything.🤷🏻
 

FFS just make a point clearly and concisely using your own words instead of straddling the fence.

Edited April 15, 2022 by Jimmy Snacks

[Highmark]

Just now, Jimmy Snacks said:

What’s mind boggling is how you post a lot of cut and paste, laughing emojis and links but really don’t say anything.🤷🏻

That you can comprehend....that I agree with. 

[Jimmy Snacks]

1 minute ago, Highmark said:

That you can comprehend....that I agree with. 

I comprehend just fine…I disagree with Anler but he’s made it clear where he stands…you not so much. FFS just say it.

Edited April 15, 2022 by Jimmy Snacks

[Highmark]

1 minute ago, Jimmy Snacks said:

I comprehend just fine…I disagree with Anler but he’s made it clear where he stands…you not so much. FFS just say it.

Jesus dude....the entire thread is basically Anler and I in agreement with one another on this entire topic except whether or not diplomacy would have worked.   You feeling alright?