would a small bore engine in a modern chassis sled sell today?

[Crnr2Crnr]

21 hours ago, Ziemann said:

It sounds like what you guys are describing is more like the SnoPro 500. In my mind, that was the last of the entry level boy racers. Primitive yet functional. Brilliantly fun. If it would have had just a few more HP.....

 2015/2016 ZR4000RR ($9299-9599) & 2010-2014 SP500 ($8299-8999) were the last sleds like this and were killed off (imo) due to EPA and lack of sales due to the increased sales of big bore crossovers, mountain sleds and those holy grail hypersleds

It wasn't a question of if they could make bare bones smaller bore sleds again (they could) it was a question of would people actually buy them if they did?

Because I'm bored, here's a list of the sub $12K msrp 2022 trail and crossover sleds that aren't 'little kids' sleds (base model with no options)

Doo

MXZ Sport 600 (129") (85hp) $8699

MXZ TNT 600 (129") (120hp) $11749

Renegade Sport 600 (137") (85hp) $8899

Renegade Adrenaline 600 (137") (120hp) $11599

Backcountry Sport (146") (85hp) $9049

Polaris 

Indy 550 (121") (66hp) $8099

Indy 550 (144") (66hp) $8599

Indy SP 600 (129") (120hp) $11299

Indy SP 600 (137") (120hp) $11599

Cat 

Blast ZR 4000 (65hp) (121") $8255

Blast XR 4000 (65hp) (146") $8665

 

When I look at this list through the eyeballs of a twenty something ditchbanin; racer wanna-be... working within a limited budget   Meh 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 20, 2021 by Crnr2Crnr

[Crnr2Crnr]

and... for reference here's the 600's available with 'premium' shocks

Doo

MXZ 600 X-RS (129") $13549

Renegade 600 X (137") $12600

Polaris 

Indy XCR 650 (128") $13799

Indy XCR 650 (136") $14199

Cat

ZR 6000 RR (137") $13795 

[Jimmy Snacks]

2 minutes ago, Crnr2Crnr said:

and... for reference here's the 600's available with 'premium' shocks

Doo

MXZ 600 X-RS (129") $13549

Renegade 600 X (137") $12600

Polaris 

Indy XCR 650 (128") $13799

Indy XCR 650 (136") $14199

Cat

ZR 6000 RR (137") $13795 

A guy would be better off buying the cheaper “sport model” and putting better shocks on the sled later.

Edited November 20, 2021 by Jimmy Snacks

[Crnr2Crnr]

1 hour ago, Jimmy Snacks said:

A guy would be better off buying the cheaper “sport model” and putting better shocks on the sled later.

$3-4K for premium shocks these days, and you'd still have a sled with the cheap skid, no additional bracing and e-start (with Polaris being the exception as you can order your sled without it).  well done Polaris

This is beating a dead horse but knowing Cat's products well enough I would take the SX chassis using the consumer 600 engine and clutches, no e-start, the trail fuel tank with Riot seat (made stiffer), the std gauge, Riot skis, 137 Cobra track, Fox IFP QS3 shocks, 22/48 gearing without the slipper... leave the tunnel raw aluminum, black SX skid and front end, plain black plastics adorned with one very small green Sno-Pro decal on the hood, tether switch and that's it.    All proven parts from existing sleds they already make, slapped together just so us dingdongs could change/upgrade it just as we want from there... for $12,001 msrp of course 

       

Edited November 21, 2021 by Crnr2Crnr
gearing change for use up to 1.75 lug but still pull about 90mph

[Jimmy Snacks]

30 minutes ago, Crnr2Crnr said:

$3-4K for premium shocks these days, and you'd still have a sled with the cheap skid, no additional bracing and e-start (with Polaris being the exception as you can order your sled without it).  well done Polaris

This is beating a dead horse but knowing Cat's products well enough I would take the SX chassis using the consumer 600 engine and clutches, no e-start, the trail fuel tank with Riot seat (made stiffer), the std gauge, Riot skis, 137 Cobra track, Fox IFP QS3 shocks, 19/50 gearing without the slipper... leave the tunnel raw aluminum, black SX skid and front end, plain black plastics adorned with one very small green Sno-Pro decal on the hood, tether switch and that's it.    All proven parts from existing sleds they already make, slapped together just so us dingdongs could change/upgrade it just as we want from there... for $12,001 msrp of course 

       

I think you could find the shocks for less than that if you looked hard enough…as for the rest I concur.👍🏼

[Crnr2Crnr]

15 minutes ago, Jimmy Snacks said:

I think you could find the shocks for less than that if you looked hard enough…as for the rest I concur.👍🏼

my defenition of premium isn't mass produced off the shelf Fox or Walker Evans

https://www.elkasuspension.com/product-category/snowmobile/?filter_vehicle-model-year=zr-6000r-xc-129-2016&filter_product-model=stage-5&subid=snowmobile&c=72e1ba2726d6&c=72e1ba2726d6

https://www.hygearsuspension.com/collections/2020-arctic-cat-zr-137-rr

but!!!  with the IFP QS3's you could easily have them valved for weight/use and add DSC's without breaking the bank.

 

Edited November 21, 2021 by Crnr2Crnr

[Premium]

I agree with many here I'm not sure I see the viability.  I have an R-XC and it's an awesome sled...everything is there to be fun, aggressive, durable, and ultra capable. The power from the c-tec2 600 and it's characteristics are top notch for the displacement, but I certainly wouldn't want less.  So where to save money? I suppose I could live with a basic gauge, but I like the functionality and I'd maybe save a couple hundred? Unpainted tunnel could work to save a little but not much (and a painted tunnel is superior both in looks and snow shedding too).

The closest to what you're talking about is the sno pro 500, but as good as that sled was, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who wouldn't admit it would be even better with a 600 (or more).

[Jimmy Snacks]

5 hours ago, Premium said:

I agree with many here I'm not sure I see the viability.  I have an R-XC and it's an awesome sled...everything is there to be fun, aggressive, durable, and ultra capable. The power from the c-tec2 600 and it's characteristics are top notch for the displacement, but I certainly wouldn't want less.  So where to save money? I suppose I could live with a basic gauge, but I like the functionality and I'd maybe save a couple hundred? Unpainted tunnel could work to save a little but not much (and a painted tunnel is superior both in looks and snow shedding too).

The closest to what you're talking about is the sno pro 500, but as good as that sled was, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who wouldn't admit it would be even better with a 600 (or more).

I’ve had a couple SP 500’s and they were great...ergos and chassis were perfect for me but yeah....more power please!👊🏻

[Deephaven]

Trail tank and lower compression head in the race sled would make more sense IMO.  Both as a consumer and a manufacturer.

[Crnr2Crnr]

6 hours ago, Jimmy Snacks said:

I’ve had a couple SP 500’s and they were great...ergos and chassis were perfect for me but yeah....more power please!👊🏻

have

one stock engine 500 and one with moar powa

stock engine unit works great for 96% of the trails I frequent

 

[Jimmy Snacks]

13 minutes ago, Crnr2Crnr said:

have

one stock engine 500 and one with moar powa

stock engine unit works great for 96% of the trails I frequent

 

Nice….one of mine had a D&D 720 in it…should have held on to that one.

[Crnr2Crnr]

5 hours ago, Jimmy Snacks said:

Nice….one of mine had a D&D 720 in it…should have held on to that one.

one is a 720

[Jimmy Snacks]

18 minutes ago, Crnr2Crnr said:

one is a 720

👍🏼🇺🇸
 

Are parts hard to find? 

Edited November 21, 2021 by Jimmy Snacks

[Crnr2Crnr]

6 minutes ago, Jimmy Snacks said:

👍🏼🇺🇸
 

Are parts hard to find? 

yes...

[Ziemann]

My wife wanted a ZR4000 LXR with the 500 engine. It would have been perfect for her. But, for whatever reason reverse and as I recall electric start weren't an option on that sled 5 years ago? WTF? A LXR without the LXR bells and whistles?

I ended up buying her a '17 ZR8000 LXR (last of the Suzuki's) and she is thrilled with it. I don't think I'll ever get her to part with it. 

For fun factor, my SnoPro 500 was one of my favorite sleds ever. That thing ran WFO almost all of the time and was unkillable. 

The idea of the Blast is kinda  close....but poorly executed. It looks like a cheap Chinese clone that you would buy at a flea market from some guy that is also selling lawn ornaments....

The MX-Z Sport is about the best option out there right now if I wanted a new sled for my wife. 

[Crnr2Crnr]

38 minutes ago, Ziemann said:

My wife wanted a ZR4000 LXR with the 500 engine. It would have been perfect for her. But, for whatever reason reverse and as I recall electric start weren't an option on that sled 5 years ago? WTF? A LXR without the LXR bells and whistles?

I ended up buying her a '17 ZR8000 LXR (last of the Suzuki's) and she is thrilled with it. I don't think I'll ever get her to part with it. 

For fun factor, my SnoPro 500 was one of my favorite sleds ever. That thing ran WFO almost all of the time and was unkillable. 

The idea of the Blast is kinda  close....but poorly executed. It looks like a cheap Chinese clone that you would buy at a flea market from some guy that is also selling lawn ornaments....

The MX-Z Sport is about the best option out there right now if I wanted a new sled for my wife.

 

https://www.countrycat.com/arctic-cat/arctic-cat-6639-897-reverse-kit-2015-2016-zr-4000-rr

They briefly offered a reverse kit for the ZR 4000.  There was one guy on HCS that got a closeout deal and installed it for his wife or gf.  The 500 was and still is a great LITTLE engine but as previously mentioned did not meet EPA or sell to the masses.  If I had to sell one of mine it would be tough to pick and depend on what I'd be purchasing.  The bLast, yeah looks cheap and is cheap but they're asking full sized MXZ Sport $ for it.  In fairness I really should make a point to get on one but don't know anyone who's bought one or plans to.  Pretty sure whatever I buy next will be a 600 and possibly red.    

 

[Crnr2Crnr]

bump

still waiting for someone to release a new 100hp-ish modern SP500

nope, we got a new 4S today, and a some turbo 2S's... for $20k+ 

where's a new $11,111 sled to beat like it's a rented mule and upgrade at will?



 

[Deephaven]

Cat hasn't released their new stuff yet.  Perhaps a turbo blast is coming and will fit your need.  ROFL

[Crnr2Crnr]

17 hours ago, Deephaven said:

Cat hasn't released their new stuff yet.  Perhaps a turbo blast is coming and will fit your need.  ROFL

Yeah, no.

 

[Deephaven]

3 hours ago, Crnr2Crnr said:

Yeah, no.

 

It'd be too much for Jim "green goggles" Dumstad so thought maybe good for you.

[Crnr2Crnr]

32 minutes ago, Deephaven said:

It'd be too much for Jim "green goggles" Dumstad so thought maybe good for you.

imagine a turbo b-Last... 65hp +7%
 

people would utterly be blown away and flock to one of the fourteen dealers left... 

 

 

 

[ICG]

Why not.  ...  build a small light engine with lots of power.

Polaris Indy 400 was the hot seller when it was introduced.  Yes, the power band was peaky, but a hot ride for the day

Arctic Cats first ZR was a 440 class engine on steroids. HOT 🔥 screamer.

Last of Kawasaki sleds had a screamer 340 LC engine.  It was hotter than the Fuji 398 in the.Indy.

Build a 440 screamer with 110 - 120 horsepower, and a great chassis and I'd get one the first year.

[Crnr2Crnr]

On 3/6/2022 at 4:32 PM, ICG said:

Why not.  ...  build a small light engine with lots of power.

Polaris Indy 400 was the hot seller when it was introduced.  Yes, the power band was peaky, but a hot ride for the day

Arctic Cats first ZR was a 440 class engine on steroids. HOT 🔥 screamer.

Last of Kawasaki sleds had a screamer 340 LC engine.  It was hotter than the Fuji 398 in the.Indy.

Build a 440 screamer with 110 - 120 horsepower, and a great chassis and I'd get one the first year.

I don't foresee anyone bringing back 440's or 500's but BRP is becoming the masters of detuning their 600's to fit their intended use.  Simple TBI injection and some mapping and done.

Cat could do something very similar for little to no expense using their existing chassis which if sold in larger numbers would reduce the cost of making the actual race sled until they change it.  KISS principal.

Still like this concept... https://www.freedomsledder.com/index.php?/topic/41704-would-a-small-bore-engine-in-a-modern-chassis-sled-sell-today/&do=findComment&comment=1273164

[Crnr2Crnr]

On 11/16/2021 at 8:39 PM, Deephaven said:

Hey I owned a 4000 and will again once the price drops.  My comment was different.  No economy of scale in making the motor unless it is a premium offering as it will just add cost.  

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/4318956631537954/?ref=search&referral_code=marketplace_search&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3A05ed6e05-ae95-4f73-b9ed-21bba6253cfc

well this one has an asking price of about what they cost new with 7400 miles on it... @racinfarmer 

On 11/20/2021 at 5:07 PM, Crnr2Crnr said:

and... for reference here's the 600's available with 'premium' shocks

Doo

MXZ 600 X-RS (129") $13549

Renegade 600 X (137") $12600

Polaris 

Indy XCR 650 (128") $13799

Indy XCR 650 (136") $14199

Cat

ZR 6000 RR (137") $13795 

Updated 2023 prices for 600 class sleds... it's insane.  Offerings are pretty thin in the $11-13k range...

2023 Renegade Adrenaline 600 137 $12,439 (Std Gauge)

2023 SP 650 137 E/S $12,999 (Std Gauge)

2023 Renegade 600 X 137 E/S $13,149 (Std Gauge)

2023 MXZ 600 Blizzard 129 E/S $13,249 (Std Gauge)

2023 MXZ 600 X-RS 129 E/S $14,249 (Std Gauge & Shocks)

2023 XC 650 129 M/S $13,799 or E/S $14,288 (Std Gauge)

2023 Renegade 600 XRS Comp. Pkg 137 M/S $14,299 (Std Gauge)

2023 ZR 6000 137 E/S QS3 $14,399

2023 XC 650 137 M/S $14,199 or E/S $14,688 (Std Gauge)

2023 Renegade 600 Enduro 137 E/S $14,799 (Std Gauge)

2023 XCR 650 128 M/S $14,799 or E/S $15,288 (Std Gauge)

2023 ZR 6000 RXC 129 M/S $15,199 or E/S $15,499

2023 XCR 650 136 M/S $15,199 or E/S $15,688 (Std Gauge)

2023 VR1 650 129 M/S $15,299 or E/S $15,788 (7S)

2023 VR1 650 137 M/S $15,699 or E/S $16,188 (7S)

 

 

[800renegaderider]

On 5/1/2022 at 2:17 PM, Crnr2Crnr said:

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/4318956631537954/?ref=search&referral_code=marketplace_search&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3A05ed6e05-ae95-4f73-b9ed-21bba6253cfc

well this one has an asking price of about what they cost new with 7400 miles on it... @racinfarmer 

Updated 2023 prices for 600 class sleds... it's insane.  Offerings are pretty thin in the $11-13k range...

2023 Renegade Adrenaline 600 137 $12,439 (Std Gauge)

2023 SP 650 137 E/S $12,999 (Std Gauge)

2023 Renegade 600 X 137 E/S $13,149 (Std Gauge)

2023 MXZ 600 Blizzard 129 E/S $13,249 (Std Gauge)

2023 MXZ 600 X-RS 129 E/S $14,249 (Std Gauge & Shocks)

2023 XC 650 129 M/S $13,799 or E/S $14,288 (Std Gauge)

2023 Renegade 600 XRS Comp. Pkg 137 M/S $14,299 (Std Gauge)

2023 ZR 6000 137 E/S QS3 $14,399

2023 XC 650 137 M/S $14,199 or E/S $14,688 (Std Gauge)

2023 Renegade 600 Enduro 137 E/S $14,799 (Std Gauge)

2023 XCR 650 128 M/S $14,799 or E/S $15,288 (Std Gauge)

2023 ZR 6000 RXC 129 M/S $15,199 or E/S $15,499

2023 XCR 650 136 M/S $15,199 or E/S $15,688 (Std Gauge)

2023 VR1 650 129 M/S $15,299 or E/S $15,788 (7S)

2023 VR1 650 137 M/S $15,699 or E/S $16,188 (7S)

 

 

You forgot the most important 600 sled on the market the 600efi