racinfarmer Posted December 3, 2016 Share Posted December 3, 2016 4 minutes ago, GreatLandEmpire said: there is, your eastern government lied to you. the ownership is of the workers. real socialism is when the workers have control What are your feelings about having Trump as your next president? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted December 3, 2016 Author Share Posted December 3, 2016 (edited) 18 minutes ago, DriftBusta said: I'm done with it. We've been listening to the Slingers and Mainecats of the world trying to convince us of the world through their eyes for 8 years. Reality prevailed. Done. They lost and might as well slam their forehead into a door frame before I have any interest in trying to have an honest discussion with them. x2 Listen you little banjo string armed chicken necked shit talking faggot.....I used to like you and let you run your lips because I thought at the heart of it, you were a good kid. I've since realized you're a lippy disrespectful know nothing fuck, need a boot straight up your ass and my fist right between your wide set eyes, you inbred fucking ree-tard. Don't even look in my direction kid, I ain't got time for your bullshit. Shit on me, you're dead to me. ^ more examples of fascism 17 minutes ago, SSFB said: Yesterday, today and tomorrow. Mass incarceration and nearly continuous war say different. 15 minutes ago, Highmark said: I already answered that. Into your own weed tonight? So, no, then? Because you clearly don't get what communism is. 13 minutes ago, SSFB said: There is no ownership under Communism. Personal property vs private property. Personal property = your toothbrush Private property = means of production Edited December 3, 2016 by motonoggin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted December 3, 2016 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted December 3, 2016 8 minutes ago, GreatLandEmpire said: there is, your eastern government lied to you. the ownership is of the workers. real socialism is when the workers have control Who is the pitcher and who is the catcher with you and Moto? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted December 3, 2016 Author Share Posted December 3, 2016 Just now, Highmark said: Who is the pitcher and who is the catcher with you and Moto? ^ more fascist language Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSFB Posted December 3, 2016 Share Posted December 3, 2016 4 minutes ago, motonoggin said: ^ more examples of fascism Mass incarceration and nearly continuous war say different. So, no, then? Because you clearly don't get what communism is. Personal property vs private property. Personal property = your toothbrush Private property = means of production And the liberation of Europe tells the other side. The government does lots of jenky shit though. Personal and private are literally synonyms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted December 3, 2016 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted December 3, 2016 Yes we all know there was no mass incarceration in communist USSR. Oh wait that was authoritarian communism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DriftBusta Posted December 3, 2016 Share Posted December 3, 2016 (edited) 10 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Personal property vs private property. Personal property = your toothbrush Private property = means of production Get trained, get educated, get a new job, do something. You're completely delusional and pretty much the ONLY fascist here. Your neo intellectual attitude might someday eventually actually get intellectual, maybe accrue a little wisdom, instead of your pie in the sky hallucinations. You remind me of the skinny kid who needed a haircut, and hung around the student lounge back in college, quoting Mother Jones articles, then hopped into his moms Malibu so he could go home and smoke bongs in the basement. Except you're in your mid 30s and were supposed to outgrow this shit by now. Edited December 3, 2016 by DriftBusta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted December 3, 2016 Author Share Posted December 3, 2016 Just now, SSFB said: And the liberation of Europe tells the other side. Personal and private are literally synonyms. Yes, we helped defeat Hitler, but it was mostly the Soviets. We used to shoot fascists, you know? Now they run the joint. That's not in the way property is seen under communism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSFB Posted December 3, 2016 Share Posted December 3, 2016 Fair point, when was Communism great? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted December 3, 2016 Author Share Posted December 3, 2016 1 minute ago, Highmark said: Yes we all know there was no mass incarceration in communist USSR. Oh wait that was authoritarian communism. Is the Democratic People's Republic of Korea a democratic republic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zambroski Posted December 3, 2016 Share Posted December 3, 2016 1 minute ago, SSFB said: Fair point, when was Communism great? 4th wall break. Fuck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSFB Posted December 3, 2016 Share Posted December 3, 2016 4 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Yes, we helped defeat Hitler, but it was mostly the Soviets. We used to shoot fascists, you know? Now they run the joint. That's not in the way property is seen under communism. Hey, I hate fascists as much as you do, but I sure as fuck ain't gonna put Communism anywhere except right next to Fascism. They're both death cults. War hawks don't see preemptive attacks as anything but "Defense" but you and I know better. It doesn't matter how the ideology sees it, it matters what it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted December 3, 2016 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted December 3, 2016 1 minute ago, DriftBusta said: Get trained, get educated, get a new job, do something. You're completely delusional and pretty much the ONLY fascist here. Your neo intellectual attitude might someday eventually actually get intellectual, maybe accrue a little wisdom, instead of your pie in the sky hallucinations. You remind me of the skinny kid who needed a haircut, and hung around the student lounge, quoting Mother Jones articles, then hopped into his moms Malibu so he could go home and smoke bongs in the basement. Never has been and never will be the form of govt Moto wants. History has proven its not possible. There has been plenty of communism throughout history and ALL of them were authoritarian in nature. Its the only way it overpowers the will of the people.....you know FREEDOM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted December 3, 2016 Author Share Posted December 3, 2016 2 minutes ago, SSFB said: Fair point, when was Communism great? It's always been great. The problem isn't communism, it's authoritarianism. Every communist state has utilized a vanguard to impose communism in an authoritarian fashion and as a means of defense against outside forces. Authoritarianism will ruin capitalism also. It ruins everything, always, either from without or within. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racinfarmer Posted December 3, 2016 Share Posted December 3, 2016 3 minutes ago, DriftBusta said: Get trained, get educated, get a new job, do something. You're completely delusional and pretty much the ONLY fascist here. Your neo intellectual attitude might someday eventually actually get intellectual, maybe accrue a little wisdom, instead of your pie in the sky hallucinations. You remind me of the skinny kid who needed a haircut, and hung around the student lounge, quoting Mother Jones articles, then hopped into his moms Malibu so he could go home and smoke bongs in the basement. That is almost my best friend from high school, except he doesn't need a haircut, down to the Malibu! Lots and lots of weed. Turns out, he was/is trying to self-medicate for bi-polar and refuses to take any other medications. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSFB Posted December 3, 2016 Share Posted December 3, 2016 1 minute ago, Highmark said: Never has been and never will be the form of govt Moto wants. History has proven its not possible. There has been plenty of communism throughout history and ALL of them were authoritarian in nature. Its the only way it overpowers the will of the people.....you know FREEDOM. That's what I've been trying to say. Communism cannot be achieved by humans without rampant, gross Authoritarianism. The exact kind that killed tens of millions of people in the 20th Century. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted December 3, 2016 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted December 3, 2016 3 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Is the Democratic People's Republic of Korea a democratic republic? No its a Unitary socialist republic one party state. Also known as totalitarian dictatorship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSFB Posted December 3, 2016 Share Posted December 3, 2016 4 minutes ago, motonoggin said: It's always been great. The problem isn't communism, it's authoritarianism. Every communist state has utilized a vanguard to impose communism in an authoritarian fashion and as a means of defense against outside forces. Authoritarianism will ruin capitalism also. It ruins everything, always, either from without or within. Communism uses Authoritarianism against it's own people, put aside any discussion about outside forces for a moment. The type of Communism you're wishing for can't be achieved at large regardless of outside influences because Communism completely disregards human nature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted December 3, 2016 Author Share Posted December 3, 2016 1 minute ago, SSFB said: That's what I've been trying to say. Communism cannot be achieved by humans without rampant, gross Authoritarianism. The exact kind that killed tens of millions of people in the 20th Century. It can be achieved by humans, once we shed our authoritarian tendencies. Just now, Highmark said: No its a Unitary socialist republic one party state. Also known as totalitarian dictatorship. As was the USSR a totalitarian dictatorship. Marx envisioned a stateless society under communism, with minimal justified hierarchies. That's not what happened there, is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted December 3, 2016 Author Share Posted December 3, 2016 2 minutes ago, SSFB said: Communism uses Authoritarianism against it's own people, put aside any discussion about outside forces for a moment. Communism at large can't be achieved regardless of outside influences because Communism completely disregards human nature. Human nature to want freedom and equality or are we talking about lizard brain shit during scarcity? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zambroski Posted December 3, 2016 Share Posted December 3, 2016 Just now, motonoggin said: Human nature to want freedom and equality or are we talking about lizard brain shit during scarcity? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSFB Posted December 3, 2016 Share Posted December 3, 2016 20 minutes ago, motonoggin said: It can be achieved by humans, once we shed our authoritarian tendencies. As was the USSR a totalitarian dictatorship. Marx envisioned a stateless society under communism, with minimal justified hierarchies. That's not what happened there, is it? That's not going to happen for at least 10 thousand fucking years. I'd be more keen to put the minimum at 100 thousand years. Do you realize just how little humans have changed on a fundamental level from when we were living in caves? Yeah, most of us don't beat our wives, kill our neighbor or steal from our brother but that's the result of education and prosperity, not a fundamental change in humanity. In this country we're 160 years removed from humans owning other humans, 100 years removed from women not being able to vote and 50 years removed from the Civil Rights Act. If 2016 humans were a PC, we'd be an 8 Mhz processor with 512 bytes of RAM or a Ford Model T, for you car guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSFB Posted December 3, 2016 Share Posted December 3, 2016 7 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Human nature to want freedom and equality or are we talking about lizard brain shit during scarcity? You're talking about "want", I'm talking about what humans will actually DO when it comes down to it. Everybody "wants" freedom and equality but at the end of the day, Joe Bob doesn't give flying fuck about the common goal of a Communist society because Joe Bob's human nature makes him care first an foremost about those close to him and himself. Everybody can understand the story of a person being a "cog in the wheel" of a business, feeling that they don't have any power to change anything or that their work, however much or little, will make no difference in the end. Communism is that wheel and the worker is the cog. The greatest human achievements have been by people pursuing their individual goals and society reaps the benefits as a side effect. Name one substantial achievement that was made by a Communist government that has not been achieved under Capitalism. I can name several achievements that have been made under Capitalism, by private individuals that have never been sniffed under Communism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted December 3, 2016 Author Share Posted December 3, 2016 7 minutes ago, SSFB said: That's not going to happen for at least 10 thousand fucking years. I'd be more keen to put the minimum at 100 thousand years. Do you realize just how little humans have changed on a fundamental level from when we were living in caves? Yeah, most of us don't beat our wives, kill our neighbor or steal from our brother but that's the result of education and prosperity, not a fundamental change in humanity. In this country we're 160 years removed from humans owning other humans, 100 years removed from women not being able to vote and 50 years removed from the Civil Rights Act. If 2016 humans were a PC, we'd be an 8 Mhz processor with 512 bytes of RAM. I'm a little more optimistic. With the internet comes a massive exchange of ideas on a level playing field. It's like swapping out from our 8mHz to whatever the fuck terahertz processor and a billion terabits of ram. Our bodies haven't proven to evolve easily, but our minds have. I think you're right that education fixed some of our problems, but you're wrong about it not being a fundamental change in humanity. We have survived this long because of our ability to learn and adapt to new information. Now we are in the age of information. The very thing that has fed our evolution just got mainlined into our culture. It's going to put our adaptive nature into overdrive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted December 3, 2016 Author Share Posted December 3, 2016 4 minutes ago, SSFB said: You're talking about "want", I'm talking about what humans will actually DO when it comes down to it. Everybody "wants" freedom and equality but at the end of the day, Joe Bob doesn't give flying fuck about the common goal of a Communist society because Joe Bob's human nature makes him care first an foremost about those close to him and himself. Everybody can understand the story of a person being a "cog in the wheel" of a business, feeling that they don't have any power to change anything or that their work, however much or little, will make no difference in the end. Communism is that wheel and the worker is the cog. The greatest human achievements have been by people pursuing their individual goals and society reaps the benefits as a side effect. Name one substantial achievement that was made by a Communist government that has not been achieved under Capitalism. I can name several achievements that have been made under Capitalism, by private individuals that have never been sniffed under Communism. I'm not going to credit or blame an ideology for the failings or successes of humanity. All of these things are a creation of humanity, not ideology. When capitalism fails, as it is destined to, it won't be the fault of capitalism, it will be the fault of humanity. Same with communism. If humanity comes up with a way to run its society, and it fails, it is humanity's fault for not coming up with a better system that serves humanity. We are enslaving our minds to our own bad ideas with this stubborn adherence to all these social constructs. How we perceive our reality has to change, and I think it will in the next couple of generations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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