So this is crazy.

[Zambroski]

1 minute ago, Snoslinger said:

Holy fuck. Broski has some valid points for once

I always do.  You know it too.  But look at your side here.  Honestly?  These are the people you want to stand with and call yourselves the rational and "intellectually elite"?  No, you don't.

Fact is, you and I could probably sit down and theoretically find a happy medium for both sides over a few beers.  The only way I sit down with any of the rest of "your side" here and listen is for my own laughter and enjoyment before I take them outside and smash their tiny heads into the ground.  

[Zambroski]

8 minutes ago, motonoggin said:

This would basically be municipal scale type generation. 2MW generators aren't exactly small. These are 16 cylinder Caterpillar motors. They're the size of a bus. 

It's be interesting to see a business plan for this.  I think the overhead is going to crush the ability to have decent returns in what will be a very competitive market.  We are going to see many regional operations springing up but with limiting investments compared to what will be going on in the south, gonna be tough.  Logistics will factor in but shipping dried goods isn't really expensive especially when processing is minimal once at the point of distribution.

Like I said, it's gonna be neat to watch this industry take off.  I hope many make it.  I am doubtful they will have the resources (and the brain power) to do so.  Best bet is to start forming regional lobbying groups for regional market and legislative protections from the big players.

[Snoslinger]

7 minutes ago, Zambroski said:

I always do.  You know it too.  But look at your side here.  Honestly?  These are the people you want to stand with and call yourselves the rational and "intellectually elite"?  No, you don't.

Fact is, you and I could probably sit down and theoretically find a happy medium for both sides over a few beers.  The only way I sit down with any of the rest of "your side" here and listen is for my own laughter and enjoyment before I take them outside and smash their tiny heads into the ground.  

Well that’s odd, because I have damn near the same beliefs as the others on “my side”. Regardless I’d have a few beers with you to see if you’re as fucked up as you appear  

[Snoslinger]

4 minutes ago, Zambroski said:

It's be interesting to see a business plan for this.  I think the overhead is going to crush the ability to have decent returns in what will be a very competitive market.  We are going to see many regional operations springing up but with limiting investments compared to what will be going on in the south, gonna be tough.  Logistics will factor in but shipping dried goods isn't really expensive especially when processing is minimal once at the point of distribution.

Like I said, it's gonna be neat to watch this industry take off.  I hope many make it.  I am doubtful they will have the resources (and the brain power) to do so.  Best bet is to start forming regional lobbying groups for regional market and legislative protections from the big players.

I think the smaller guys will be good for awhile. But like you said, the big fish will eat them over time 

[Zambroski]

2 minutes ago, Snoslinger said:

Well that’s odd, because I have damn near the same beliefs as the others on “my side”. Regardless I’d have a few beers with you to see if you’re as fucked up as you appear  

We share a lot of the same beliefs, where we differ is how that belief is presented.  I am the same person in the real world as I am here.  I can take whatever debate to whatever level it needs to go.  I am an intense person who enjoys confrontation but love to laugh even more.  It's not my fault if others want to make it at their expense.  For that reason, many find me off-putting while others just love the show!  And I bring it BIGLY!!!

1 minute ago, Snoslinger said:

I think the smaller guys will be good for awhile. But like you said, the big fish will eat them over time 

The main goal for many should be to "fake it" long enough and stay afloat to be able to garner the attention of larger operations for full or partial buy outs.  There are gonna be a lot of M&A (mergers and acquisitions) profits to be made marrying these companies along the way.  That's what I am going to keep an eye on.

 

[BOHICA]

26 minutes ago, motonoggin said:

Yeah they've got stop work orders all over the area. It's Consumer's Energy.

The problem with moving closer is that we can't. All the areas with good power have banned licensed operations. 

Why do you think it would be expensive to generate our own? We figure we can cut our electricity bill in half if we do that. If it cost $1mil for a genset, it'd pay itself back in 2 years tops.  At this point it's easier to get natural gas than it is to get power. Are we missing something?

How many gallons of fuel per hour or therms per hour would a 2000 hp running 95-100% use.  How often do you plan on servicing the generation units.  Oil and fuel filter changes.  Oil capacity and such?  Any concern with noise in the area from neighbors?  Sound deadening buildings required?

never heard anybody ever claim generating onsite permanently is cheaper then grid power for permanent installation.  Seems odd to me as the only time it makes sense from my experience is when it’s temporary or back up to generate your own....  not permanently.

7-8 cents a kWh seems high for industrial/commercial customers to me.

 

[motonoggin]

6 minutes ago, BOHICA said:

How many gallons of fuel per hour or therms per hour would a 2000 hp running 95-100% use.  How often do you plan on servicing the generation units.  Oil and fuel filter changes.  Oil capacity and such?  Any concern with noise in the area from neighbors?  Sound deadening buildings required?

never heard anybody ever claim generating onsite permanently is cheaper then grid power for permanent installation.  Seems odd to me as the only time it makes sense from my experience is when it’s temporary or back up to generate your own....  not permanently.

7-8 cents a kWh seems high for industrial/commercial customers to me.

 

7-8 cents is what the power company quoted us. 

[Zambroski]

7 minutes ago, BOHICA said:

How many gallons of fuel per hour or therms per hour would a 2000 hp running 95-100% use.  How often do you plan on servicing the generation units.  Oil and fuel filter changes.  Oil capacity and such?  Any concern with noise in the area from neighbors?  Sound deadening buildings required?

never heard anybody ever claim generating onsite permanently is cheaper then grid power for permanent installation.  Seems odd to me as the only time it makes sense from my experience is when it’s temporary or back up to generate your own....  not permanently.

7-8 cents a kWh seems high for industrial/commercial customers to me.

 

Maintenance is just one factor.  I'd be interested to know the actual cost of down time.  What is the cost per hour/days or even weeks of a power loss or minimized power operations?  How does it affect plants and the growth cycles/yields?  Winter poses an interesting and potentially disastrous scenario for any type of lost power.  ATS and switchgear galore!  It's done elsewhere so it's not like it's never been done but, the cost to maintain all those back-ups and make sure they are operational is spendy.  

This is worth watching.  

[Jimmy Snacks]

Economic fraud, race fraud.....fucking guy is something else.

[BOHICA]

19 minutes ago, motonoggin said:

7-8 cents is what the power company quoted us. 

I guess that is reasonable with power delivery cost and such.

i think your best bet is to upgrade lighting to a more efficient design so you can have the operation size you desire but on grid power.

does pot need light 24/7????  Or will there be times with low energy needs?

Edited January 26, 2019 by BOHICA

[motonoggin]

7 minutes ago, BOHICA said:

I guess that is reasonable with power delivery cost and such.

i think your best bet is to upgrade lighting to a more efficient design so you can have the operation size you desire but on grid power.

does pot need light 24/7????  Or will there be times with low energy needs?

Most of the lights are on 12/12 for flowering. Their engineer told us we should have most of our load shut down by 3pm. The veg rooms run 16-18 hours per day but it's only about 1/6th of our total load.

We're definitely going to take a hard look at LEDs. Trouble is, they're like 5x the cost of a conventional light. By the time we pay that premium, a generator doesn't look so bad. 

I've operated 3516 cat compressors for years. They get services every 2000 hours or so. You might change a head or two per service depending on gas quality. 

[revkevsdi]

10 hours ago, motonoggin said:

One of my partners went to a meeting the other day between the power company and stakeholders in the local township's medical cannabis industry. 

Turns out, we're the only grow project that's even close to up and running in the township. Trouble is, there's only enough power available for just the two buildings we have planned. That's all that's available in the whole township. That means no one else can start a grow. We're it for the foreseeable future. 

Power company can't really add any meaningful capacity without at least 3 years construction time and about $20million invested. Partner kinda felt bad for everyone else trying to get something going, we even had our own slide on the power point from the electric company lol. 

By that time, those who haven't built will probably have moved on. In the meantime, we can't expand past two buildings for 3+ years, which sucks. The alternative is to generate our own power. We figure one 2MW genset will run about 1000 lights maxed out. That's enough for about four buildings the same size as the one we have now (12,000 sqft, 200-250 lights). 

We figure can generate our own power for about half of what we can buy it for, so that cuts our cost to produce a pound by about $100. But a genset that big is probably about a half mil before switchgear. If we produce excess, we may be able to supply other grows if they're in close proximity, but that's probably a long shot.

It's quite an interesting problem. I feel pretty lucky that our team has their shit together and we did what we had to do to make sure we could stay working. 

@AKIQPilot you probably have worked with Nat gas gensets. Any advice you wanna offer? Investor has a bunch of 3516 Cat/Aerial compressors just sitting around that could be retrofitted with generators...

 

 

How many acres does the entire industry have inside buildings?

How difficult would it be for the Tabbaco growers to grow outside at a fraction of the cost?

[Ez ryder]

over flooded markets are already happening in places like CO and CA . I was just shopping in CO last week top shelf OZ 125 after tax . 5 gram slabs of shatter 55 bucks .

every yr the cost in the exact shops i go to decrease about 25% 

in CA the home delivery guys are going real real cheep 

the med shops I was in in AZ few mo back were still pretty $$$ like 80 bucks a 1/4 for top shelf flower and the popcorn bud shit they have to reach down to the bottem shelf for was like 100 a oz 

shop people I talk to are all telling me they are selling a lot more of the concentrates  and vap cartrage and edabels than ever . starting to cstch uo to flower sales .

other crazy thing I found out in AZ talking with a woman who runs 2 stores in AZ is she cant hire any one with a medical card . 

[Ez ryder]

2 minutes ago, revkevsdi said:

How many acres does the entire industry have inside buildings?

How difficult would it be for the Tabbaco growers to grow outside at a fraction of the cost?

outdoor weed is not always the best . unless you have tenders who really know what they are doing and put the time in real time not drop a clone turn on the drip  . outdoor you have a lot more issues to deal with . 

for concentrates the outdoor stuff will prob be the way .

 

[revkevsdi]

6 minutes ago, Ez ryder said:

outdoor weed is not always the best . unless you have tenders who really know what they are doing and put the time in real time not drop a clone turn on the drip  . outdoor you have a lot more issues to deal with . 

for concentrates the outdoor stuff will prob be the way .

 

I guess it depends on where the costs are

What percentage is tied up in light heat and hydro?

What is in the cost of maintaining the building 

vs

Seeds. 

If you can do far better with lower yields all it will take if some fencing and different legislation.

In Ontario you are allowed to grow some yourself. 

Potheads may be lazy but if they get into "craft pot" like some people brew their own beer, that will fuck the market as well.

 

[motonoggin]

35 minutes ago, revkevsdi said:

How many acres does the entire industry have inside buildings?

How difficult would it be for the Tabbaco growers to grow outside at a fraction of the cost?

I'm not sure on indoor acres operating in MI. I'd say maybe a handful at this point. Like ez said, outdoor stuff is cheaper to grow, but the quality isn't there so you get lower prices. It is good for use as a feedstock for extracts though.

18 minutes ago, revkevsdi said:

I guess it depends on where the costs are

What percentage is tied up in light heat and hydro?

What is in the cost of maintaining the building 

vs

Seeds. 

If you can do far better with lower yields all it will take if some fencing and different legislation.

In Ontario you are allowed to grow some yourself. 

Potheads may be lazy but if they get into "craft pot" like some people brew their own beer, that will fuck the market as well.

 

Electricity is roughly one quarter of our cost of production. Labor, facility, and materials make up the other 75%.

[Momorider]

AGAIN Get 4x600Kw units, nobody with more than a single brain cell would run everything off a single pack unless its a gas turbine  even then they would have two or conventional backup 

Edited January 26, 2019 by Momorider

[Anler]

Hey Dan, I have seen some stuff on urban grow ops for vegetables and stuff. Pretty cool stuff. State of the art grow systems with complete mechanized harvest. They have been randomly popping up in some cities. I have to imagine they are subsidized. 

But have you looked into something like that? Vertical farming? And are LED's viable for cannabis cultivation? Seems like it would have more bang for the buck.

 

[Anler]

 

[AKIQPilot]

My experience with power generation is all with Natural Gas Turbines.  All of the power generators we used were 20MW GE Frame 6 or Frame 7 turbines.  We have dozens of 2MW EMD (Electro-Motive Diesel) back up generators for emergency and life support.   BP has a few dozen 1.5MW portable generators that were Cat powered gensets.  Those too are for back up power only.  

In the long run I think it will be most cost effective to try to buy power from the local utility.  My guess is your utility is using some form of Natural Gas Turbine and likely some version of the GE Frame 6 or Frame 7 or possibly even larger.  A Natural Gas Turbine is by far the most cost effective hydrocarbon based power generator available.  Those would be way too expensive for your type of operation.

From where I'm sitting I would stick to the current plan of operating the two buildings with the existing equipment/power available.  As LED's prove themselves you can upgrade and reduce consumption/grow the business.  

My observations in the Southwest are very similar to Ez ryder.  Quality of the product is going way up. Price is dropping.  Certified +30% thc bud is going for under $200/oz.  23-28% bud is under $150 and sometimes even $100 depending on how much has flooded the market.  I'm talking about bud where every crumb is +25% thc.  

 

[motonoggin]

9 minutes ago, Anler said:

Hey Dan, I have seen some stuff on urban grow ops for vegetables and stuff. Pretty cool stuff. State of the art grow systems with complete mechanized harvest. They have been randomly popping up in some cities. I have to imagine they are subsidized. 

But have you looked into something like that? Vertical farming? And are LED's viable for cannabis cultivation? Seems like it would have more bang for the buck.

 

Yes we have looked into all of that and plan on moving that direction once we've gotten our plant count up. Right now we're running 500 plants on ~225 lights, but in the very near future we'd like to run 1500 plants on that many lights. That'll be when we can go vertical and led. But the 1500 plant licenses are $68k/yr so we need to make sure we plan it well.

2 minutes ago, AKIQPilot said:

My experience with power generation is all with Natural Gas Turbines.  All of the power generators we used were 20MW GE Frame 6 or Frame 7 turbines.  We have dozens of 2MW EMD (Electro-Motive Diesel) back up generators for emergency and life support.   BP has a few dozen 1.5MW portable generators that were Cat powered gensets.  Those too are for back up power only.  

In the long run I think it will be most cost effective to try to buy power from the local utility.  My guess is your utility is using some form of Natural Gas Turbine and likely some version of the GE Frame 6 or Frame 7 or possibly even larger.  A Natural Gas Turbine is by far the most cost effective hydrocarbon based power generator available.  Those would be way too expensive for your type of operation.

From where I'm sitting I would stick to the current plan of operating the two buildings with the existing equipment/power available.  As LED's prove themselves you can upgrade and reduce consumption/grow the business.  

My observations in the Southwest are very similar to Ez ryder.  Quality of the product is going way up. Price is dropping.  Certified +30% thc bud is going for under $200/oz.  23-28% bud is under $150 and sometimes even $100 depending on how much has flooded the market.  I'm talking about bud where every crumb is +25% thc.  

 

Cool shit, thanks Tom.