ICEMAN! Posted January 27, 2017 Author Share Posted January 27, 2017 13 minutes ago, Zambroski said: You cannot separate the two. They are co-dependent of one another. So take away everyone's incentive by giving everyone a basic wage that just covers the cost of living? But businesses can compete and make money? What you two are trying to deduce is senseless to me. All you are trying to do by "saving" our market economy is changing it to one that has never worked (mostly because it doesn't exist). All it would do is put everyone into poverty by eliminating jobs and opportunities and crushing supplies sending costs for them skyrocketing through inflation. Frankly, I can sorta kinda (not really) see what you may be hunting. But you are both just a few too many shades in the dark with micro and macro economic principles. Unless of course you can convince the ENTIRE working force to agree to accepting a minimum wage that will cover only basic cost of living expenses. And even if you were able to do that (NEVER GONNA HAPPEN), well......the manipulation of the markets would be astounding! I'm out. So putting everyone into poverty by replacing their jobs with AI and automaton is okay, but giving them a basic income is bad? Funny thing is, where this has been tried, entrepreneurship went up. You either have poverty, instability and high crime rates by forcing everyone out of work with a limited social safety net to fall back on, or you give everyone a basic income and they are free to supplement it if they so desire, or volunteer their time, or whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zambroski Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 5 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Capitalism is natural. It's literally in everything. Capitalism is why you see birds. Dude....your cheese has completely slipped off your cracker. Settle down. And it doesn't have to be "motivation by the threat of starvation" (that is just dark and obtuse anyway), it can be motivation by the power of success...at many levels, not just financial. THAT is what it is supposed to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zambroski Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 1 minute ago, ICEMAN! said: So putting everyone into poverty by replacing their jobs with AI and automaton is okay, but giving them a basic income is bad? Funny thing is, where this has been tried, entrepreneurship went up. You either have poverty, instability and high crime rates by forcing everyone out of work with a limited social safety net to fall back on, or you give everyone a basic income and they are free to supplement it if they so desire, or volunteer their time, or whatever. 1st...where? 2nd...that is called the minimum wage...we are doing that now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICEMAN! Posted January 27, 2017 Author Share Posted January 27, 2017 1 minute ago, Zambroski said: 1st...where? 2nd...that is called the minimum wage...we are doing that now. Min wage pays people regardless of whether or not they work? hmmm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zambroski Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 Just now, ICEMAN! said: Min wage pays people regardless of whether or not they work? hmmm Wait, you are saying everyone gets a "living wage" whether they work or not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 2 minutes ago, Zambroski said: Wait, you are saying everyone gets a "living wage" whether they work or not? That's what UBI is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICEMAN! Posted January 27, 2017 Author Share Posted January 27, 2017 3 minutes ago, Zambroski said: Wait, you are saying everyone gets a "living wage" whether they work or not? Yes Would a universal basic income make people become lazy? There is a common concern that a basic income would disincentivize work. This worry firstly overlooks the welfare trap present in our current welfare system, a trap that a basic income would actually remove since it’s being administered to everyone. This fear also shows a deep misunderstanding of what really motivates us. A recent study from MIT and Harvard economists found “no systematic evidence that cash transfer programs discourage work.” A “mincome” experiment in Manitoba Canada found a slight decrease in work hours, but this decrease was generally associated with an increase in education and more time spent caring for children. The basic income experiment in Namibia showed an increase in employment from 44% to 55% of the working population as more people were able to start their own businesses and then hire more people. These results demonstrate the key point at hand. A basic income will empower people to pursue their larger personal goals: to return to education; to care for their families; to start their own businesses; and to innovate. https://www.google.ca/amp/www.geektime.com/2015/12/17/how-a-universal-basic-income-could-fuel-entrepreneurship/amp/ Google "Universal Basic Income Entrepreneurship" if you want to see more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zambroski Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 5 minutes ago, motonoggin said: That's what UBI is. I should have back read a bit more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcticCrusher Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 17 minutes ago, Zambroski said: 1st...where? 2nd...that is called the minimum wage...we are doing that now. Cuba. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted January 27, 2017 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted January 27, 2017 (edited) 26 minutes ago, ICEMAN! said: Yes Would a universal basic income make people become lazy? There is a common concern that a basic income would disincentivize work. This worry firstly overlooks the welfare trap present in our current welfare system, a trap that a basic income would actually remove since it’s being administered to everyone. This fear also shows a deep misunderstanding of what really motivates us. A recent study from MIT and Harvard economists found “no systematic evidence that cash transfer programs discourage work.” A “mincome” experiment in Manitoba Canada found a slight decrease in work hours, but this decrease was generally associated with an increase in education and more time spent caring for children. The basic income experiment in Namibia showed an increase in employment from 44% to 55% of the working population as more people were able to start their own businesses and then hire more people. These results demonstrate the key point at hand. A basic income will empower people to pursue their larger personal goals: to return to education; to care for their families; to start their own businesses; and to innovate. https://www.google.ca/amp/www.geektime.com/2015/12/17/how-a-universal-basic-income-could-fuel-entrepreneurship/amp/ Google "Universal Basic Income Entrepreneurship" if you want to see more Both those examples had proven issues. The one in Canada the participants knew the experiment was short lived so it was unlikely to change real behavior. No incentive to change what they already were currently doing. The one in Namibia the participants were already suffering "dehumanising levels of poverty before the introduction of the pilot,[24] and as such the project's relevance to potential implementations in developed economies is not known.." Edited January 27, 2017 by Highmark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICEMAN! Posted January 27, 2017 Author Share Posted January 27, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Highmark said: Both those examples had proven issues. The one in Canada the participants knew the experiment was short lived so it was unlikely to change real behavior. No incentive to change what they already were currently doing. The one in Namibia the participants were already suffering "dehumanising levels of poverty before the introduction of the pilot,[24] and as such the project's relevance to potential implementations in developed economies is not known.." A bunch of studies around the world are taking place over the next couple of years, so we'll see. Let's hope something is figured out or many nations around the world will have their "Let them eat cake" moment. Edited January 27, 2017 by ICEMAN! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted January 27, 2017 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted January 27, 2017 (edited) 8 minutes ago, ICEMAN! said: A bunch of studies around the world are taking place over the next couple of years, so we'll see. Let's hope something is figured out or many nations around the world will have their "Let them eat cake" moment. Studies are not real world. Sorry but that's the truth of it. I'll be waiting for the results. Care to share any links to these "studies?" Do you know how long the same thing has been claimed? People have been talking about the same things since the beginning of our country and yours. For the most part we've always realized as a society that nothing benefits us more than capitalism. Do you think the welfare we already have in the US has in any way created a generational dependence on it? Edited January 27, 2017 by Highmark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racer254 Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 UBI, It's like a participation trophy for adults. LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 1 hour ago, racer254 said: UBI, It's like a participation trophy for adults. LOL It's guillotine insurance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcticCrusher Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 1 hour ago, ICEMAN! said: A bunch of studies around the world are taking place over the next couple of years, so we'll see. Let's hope something is figured out or many nations around the world will have their "Let them eat cake" moment. Studies? LMFAO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 Just now, ArcticCrusher said: Studies? LMFAO. *laughs in ignorant* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcticCrusher Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 23 minutes ago, motonoggin said: *laughs in ignorant* So tell us about this weed business venture of yours that suffered pre-mature ejaculation? I actually thought it had real potential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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