motonoggin Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share Posted January 23, 2017 5 minutes ago, 02sled said: So fix that in your business. Why should you profit from your employees labour. In your utopia you shouldn't since that would create classes, lower, middle and upper. You know... where some people are able to have nicer homes, clothes and cars than others. Who says that I am? Maybe we are all just receiving the full value of our labor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share Posted January 23, 2017 8 minutes ago, ArcticCrusher said: I guess you won't be successful. Do you pay employees an hourly wage or a % of the profit? Let me know how that works for you in La La Land? How is it 'la la land' to do both? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02sled Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 4 minutes ago, motonoggin said: 'Equal pay for unequal work' is not the same as 'from each according to ability, to each according to need'. This fundamental misunderstanding is why you keep beating your dick against this wall. Umm, collective ownership by a family that use their production to feed themselves and trade for other necessities of life is completely compatible with anarcho communism. So who determines the equality of the work performed. Are you suggesting that the work you do is much more "equal" than that of your employees. I would suggest NOT LIKELY!!! After all you can't be doing too much work while you're on the forum all the time spewing your crap agenda and YOUR EMPLOYEES ARE ACTUALLY WORKING. Reality says they should get paid more than you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted January 23, 2017 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted January 23, 2017 (edited) 17 minutes ago, motonoggin said: 'Equal pay for unequal work' is not the same as 'from each according to ability, to each according to need'. This fundamental misunderstanding is why you keep beating your dick against this wall. Umm, collective ownership by a family that use their production to feed themselves and trade for other necessities of life is completely compatible with anarcho communism. You said your farm doesn't produce anything? Why would you maintain that ownership? You distinctly received something at an unfair advantage over others who didn't inherit a farm. You are talking out of both sides of your mouth. Should a family get to keep a factory they inherited if only they work it? Land should have common access for everyone to use so they can use it to produce and feed themselves and trade for other necessities of life. In common with all socialists, the anarchists hold that the private ownership of land, capital, and machinery has had its time; that it is condemned to disappear; and that all requisites for production must, and will, become the common property of society, http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/kropotkin/revpamphlets/anarchistcommunism.html Edited January 23, 2017 by Highmark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share Posted January 23, 2017 I perform mostly intellectual labor. I do perform some physical labor, but only a few times a week. The plants do most of the work, really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02sled Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 3 minutes ago, motonoggin said: I perform mostly intellectual labor. I do perform some physical labor, but only a few times a week. The plants do most of the work, really. It takes time to do that... when do you find the time when you're here. Why is intellectual labour a higher value than physical labour.... because you say so Mr. Dictator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share Posted January 23, 2017 3 minutes ago, Highmark said: You said your farm doesn't produce anything? Why would you maintain that ownership? You distinctly received something at an unfair advantage over others who didn't inherit a farm. You are talking out of both sides of your mouth. Should a family get to keep a factory they inherited if only they work it? The farm doesn't produce any surplus value, that's for fucking sure. A factory should be owned by those that work it. Twist that up however you want to porky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted January 23, 2017 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted January 23, 2017 (edited) 3 minutes ago, motonoggin said: The farm doesn't produce any surplus value, that's for fucking sure. A factory should be owned by those that work it. Twist that up however you want to porky So how many anarcho-communist have you recruited on here? Your hypocrisy is entertaining that is for sure moto. A true anarcho-communist would say the factory is owned by everyone, not just those that work there. They are just using it. Same would go for your farm and your business. If you can't take it with you everyone owns it. Edited January 23, 2017 by Highmark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share Posted January 23, 2017 Just now, 02sled said: It takes time to do that... when do you find the time when you're here. Why is intellectual labour a higher value than physical labour.... because you say so Mr. Dictator No, because of what is produced from that labor and the amount of effort that is required to perform it. But you touched on something that is pretty revelatory. Corporations are mini dictatorships. The people at the bottom of the heirarchy have no say in the operation of that heirarchy. That is not the case in our business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share Posted January 23, 2017 3 minutes ago, Highmark said: So how many anarcho-communist have you recruited on here? Your hypocrisy is entertaining that is for sure moto. A true anarcho-communist would say the factory is owned by everyone, not just those that work there. Here we go again with the reactionaries trying to explain ancom to an ancom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted January 23, 2017 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted January 23, 2017 Just now, motonoggin said: No, because of what is produced from that labor and the amount of effort that is required to perform it. But you touched on something that is pretty revelatory. Corporations are mini dictatorships. The people at the bottom of the heirarchy have no say in the operation of that heirarchy. That is not the case in our business. So they have a say in what happens to the profits? Seriously man do you even listen to yourself sometimes. Before you claimed you were using Capitalism to acquire a means to change. Well which is it are you currently a capitalist or a practicing communist? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02sled Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 2 minutes ago, motonoggin said: No, because of what is produced from that labor and the amount of effort that is required to perform it. But you touched on something that is pretty revelatory. Corporations are mini dictatorships. The people at the bottom of the heirarchy have no say in the operation of that heirarchy. That is not the case in our business. Well then in your own words if the employees have say in your business then they contribute intellectually as well as physically so they should be paid the same as you. Are you suggesting for a second that the amount of EFFORT required for your intellectual contribution takes more EFFORT than that of your employees. Boy you sure do like to prove yourself a fool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share Posted January 23, 2017 Just now, Highmark said: So they have a say in what happens to the profits? Seriously man do you even listen to yourself sometimes. Before you claimed you were using Capitalism to acquire a means to change. Well which is it are you currently a capitalist or a practicing communist? We are operating under capitalism, we have no choice but to conform to some of the basic structure of the system. Yes, our employees do have a say in how we run, that's why I said it's more of a co-op and our expansion into a sanctioned medical market is going to operate in that fashion as well, in a much larger scale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted January 23, 2017 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted January 23, 2017 1 minute ago, motonoggin said: We are operating under capitalism, we have no choice but to conform to some of the basic structure of the system. Yes, our employees do have a say in how we run, that's why I said it's more of a co-op and our expansion into a sanctioned medical market is going to operate in that fashion as well, in a much larger scale. Having a small say in how you are run is not the same as completely sharing of the income or PROFIT based on work provided. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcticCrusher Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 26 minutes ago, motonoggin said: How is it 'la la land' to do both? No Moto, some startups invest their hard earned money and attract talent with a promise to share in the growth should the company become successful. There are only a few who are key to making this happen. Should the rest who are just getting a paycheck and could care less if they are working there or elsewhere get the same deal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02sled Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 3 minutes ago, motonoggin said: We are operating under capitalism, we have no choice but to conform to some of the basic structure of the system. Yes, our employees do have a say in how we run, that's why I said it's more of a co-op and our expansion into a sanctioned medical market is going to operate in that fashion as well, in a much larger scale. Damn you really are a fool. Under capitalism you can pretty much run YOUR business as YOU see fit. There is not one single restriction anywhere that sets a maximum you can decide to pay your employees. There isn't a single restriction that says you MUST pay YOURSELF MORE. There isn't a single restriction that prevents you from giving them an equal share of the profits. Matter of fact the capitalism is the most open system to you paying them more than you could possibly choose. The only restrictions are where there are laws requiring MINIMUM wage. There sure aren't any maximum wage laws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted January 23, 2017 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted January 23, 2017 25 minutes ago, Highmark said: In common with all socialists, the anarchists hold that the private ownership of land, capital, and machinery has had its time; that it is condemned to disappear; and that all requisites for production must, and will, become the common property of society, http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/kropotkin/revpamphlets/anarchistcommunism.html Moto is the above statement a truth of an ancom or not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share Posted January 23, 2017 7 minutes ago, Highmark said: Having a small say in how you are run is not the same as completely sharing of the income or PROFIT based on work provided. Well, it's both, so... 6 minutes ago, ArcticCrusher said: No Moto, some startups invest their hard earned money and attract talent with a promise to share in the growth should the company become successful. There are only a few who are key to making this happen. Should the rest who are just getting a paycheck and could care less if they are working there or elsewhere get the same deal? Who says that's how they feel? 4 minutes ago, 02sled said: Damn you really are a fool. Under capitalism you can pretty much run YOUR business as YOU see fit. There is not one single restriction anywhere that sets a maximum you can decide to pay your employees. There isn't a single restriction that says you MUST pay YOURSELF MORE. There isn't a single restriction that prevents you from giving them an equal share of the profits. Matter of fact the capitalism is the most open system to you paying them more than you could possibly choose. The only restrictions are where there are laws requiring MINIMUM wage. There sure aren't any maximum wage laws. Max wage laws would be a good stopgap to preventing the fall of capitalism Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SVT MXZ XRS Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 18 hours ago, motonoggin said: If you want to get in a fight with some antifa, Jay, just post your name, address, and face along with some Nazi hate speech and I'll make it happen. I already told you where I'd be in 4 days. Come meet me there yourself and show me how tough you little mask wearing pussies arent. Come try and fuck with me and see what will happen to you, little Daniel. I will smash your little empty skull in and not even think twice about it as I drive away laughing. 18 hours ago, 02sled said: Hilarious. You'll make it happen. You won't come out to do it yourself. But you will entice another drugged out moron to do it for you The are just like ghetto gangs, Arabs, Albanians, etc. They are to big of pussies to fight one on one like real me do. Fucking little pussy cowards is all they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share Posted January 23, 2017 3 minutes ago, Highmark said: Moto is the above statement a truth of an ancom or not? Yes, and if you put it into proper context, collective ownership (by a family, for instance) of a very small farm that consumes all the value that it produces is what agrarian life would be like in ancom. This arrangement is sometimes referred to as a commune. Maybe you have heard of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted January 23, 2017 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted January 23, 2017 1 minute ago, motonoggin said: Yes, and if you put it into proper context, collective ownership (by a family, for instance) of a very small farm that consumes all the value that it produces is what agrarian life would be like in ancom. This arrangement is sometimes referred to as a commune. Maybe you have heard of them. But the family still "owns" it. "all requisites for production must, and will, become the common property of society," Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share Posted January 23, 2017 1 minute ago, Highmark said: But the family still "owns" it. "all requisites for production must, and will, become the common property of society," I mean, it's like you're either deliberately misunderstanding these concepts or just don't get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02sled Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 10 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Well, it's both, so... Who says that's how they feel? Max wage laws would be a good stopgap to preventing the fall of capitalism You just said minutes ago you get paid relative to your contribution. Just like you're RUNNING a business and getting paid more than your employees and YOU'RE deciding what you are worth. The CEO of a multi-billion $ corporation gets paid relative to their contribution and worth to the business. Guess what though. They don't get to decide what they get paid unlike you. They negotiate that and guess what. It is approved by a vote by the shareholders typically represented by the board elected by the shareholders. If the shareholders decide that the person is worth $5M a year so be it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted January 23, 2017 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted January 23, 2017 Just now, motonoggin said: I mean, it's like you're either deliberately misunderstanding these concepts or just don't get it. I get exactly what the "common property of society" means and its not my family still owns it. You can massage its view into your own any way you want moto, its clear to us that you are not really a ancom if you think your family still holds the deed to the farm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share Posted January 23, 2017 Just now, 02sled said: You just said minutes ago you get paid relative to your contribution. Just like you're RUNNING a business and getting paid more than your employees and YOU'RE deciding what you are worth. The CEO of a multi-billion $ corporation gets paid relative to their contribution and worth to the business. Guess what though. They don't get to decide what they get paid unlike you. They negotiate that and guess what. It is approved by a vote by the shareholders typically represented by the board elected by the shareholders. If the shareholders decide that the person is worth $5M a year so be it. Wow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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