02sled Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 5 minutes ago, Highmark said: Don't forget he owns his own business too and makes more than his employee's do. What a piece of shit hypocrite. How dare he make more than his employees. Equality for all. Classless society. Isn't that his mantra. Moto walk the walk and pay your employees the same as you pay yourself. Put up or shut up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcticCrusher Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 6 minutes ago, Highmark said: Don't forget he owns his own business too and makes more than his employee's do. So he is exploiting his employees, nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcticCrusher Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 7 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Nice try FBI. Sounds like you have a very uninformed idea of what anarcho communism is. Didn't think so. Next. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share Posted January 23, 2017 3 minutes ago, Highmark said: Isn't personal property movable? Pretty sure the family farm goes to the people under anarcho-communism. Anarchist communism[1] (also known as anarcho-communism, free communism, libertarian communism,[2][3][4][5][6] and communist anarchism[7][8]) is a theory of anarchism which advocates the abolition of the state, capitalism, wage labour, and private property (while retaining respect for personal property),[9] and in favor of common ownership of the means of production,[10][11][page needed] direct democracy, and a horizontal network of voluntary associations and workers' councils with production and consumption based on the guiding principle: "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" You want to draw me into an argument about my family's farm, not the means of production. 1 minute ago, 02sled said: What a piece of shit hypocrite. How dare he make more than his employees. Equality for all. Classless society. Isn't that his mantra. Moto walk the walk and pay your employees the same as you pay yourself. Put up or shut up. It's run like a co-op, so we do what we can under capitalism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry ginger Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 48 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Lol, why would anyone speak out against a system of equality and liberty? Unless they were mad they don't get to exploit others, I don't see how anyone would be unhappy with liberty and equality. Maybe... people aren't equal, there are winners and losers and losers don't deserve what winners have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share Posted January 23, 2017 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02sled Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 6 minutes ago, motonoggin said: And we have more empty homes than we have homeless people, so your point about limited housing is invalid. More BS from the lunatic fringe. Don't forget everyone is entitled to the same in your utopia... a condemned hovel unfit for occupation doesn't qualify. Don't forget that those vacant places suitable for habitation are owned by someone. Why should they give up what they own for the homeless rather than you take the homeless into your home? Is it that in your utopia you are just more equal than others. Damn... this is easier than shooting fish in a barrel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted January 23, 2017 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted January 23, 2017 (edited) 1 minute ago, motonoggin said: You want to draw me into an argument about my family's farm, not the means of production. It's run like a co-op, so we do what we can under capitalism. You brought up Personal v. Private Property. What is the family farm under anarcho-communism? Personal or private? What is your business? Edited January 23, 2017 by Highmark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share Posted January 23, 2017 1 minute ago, Angry ginger said: people aren't equal, there are winners and losers and losers don't deserve what winners have. Sounds like social Darwinism but ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02sled Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 6 minutes ago, motonoggin said: You want to draw me into an argument about my family's farm, not the means of production. It's run like a co-op, so we do what we can under capitalism. More BS from the hypocrite. If it's your business you can pay your employees exactly what you want and a true communist who truly believes in equality would want to share EQUALLY with the employees and they all reap the same rewards. Capitalism doesn't restrict in any way shape or form your ability to pay your employees the same as you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share Posted January 23, 2017 7 minutes ago, Highmark said: You brought up Personal v. Private Property. What is the family farm under anarcho-communism? Personal or private? What is your business? Why do you always bring this same shit up every fucking time? I'm flattered that my personal life is of so much interest to you, but it's unproductive to the larger discussion of ideas. Here's a quick way to determine the potential of property being collectivized - does it qualify as 'the means of production'? If not, it is personal property. If so, is the total value of its production greater than what the owners will consume? If so, anyone who works said property should own a share of it and have access to the full value of their labor. If not, it is basically considered a necessity of life for the people who occupy the land and would not be collectivized. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted January 23, 2017 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted January 23, 2017 10 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Why do you always bring this same shit up every fucking time? I'm flattered that my personal life is of so much interest to you, but it's unproductive to the larger discussion of ideas. Here's a quick way to determine the potential of property being collectivized - does it qualify as 'the means of production'? If not, it is personal property. If so, is the total value of its production greater than what the owners will consume? If so, anyone who works said property should own a share of it and have access to the full value of their labor. If not, it is basically considered a necessity of life for the people who occupy the land and would not be collectivized. However you want to manipulate it so you get to keep the farm. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share Posted January 23, 2017 (edited) 22 minutes ago, 02sled said: More BS from the hypocrite. If it's your business you can pay your employees exactly what you want and a true communist who truly believes in equality would want to share EQUALLY with the employees and they all reap the same rewards. Capitalism doesn't restrict in any way shape or form your ability to pay your employees the same as you. Everyone gets a good value for their physical and intellectual labor. Some labor is more valuable than others for a variety of reasons. That doesn't mean everyone gets paid the same, it's based on input, and our workers are able to meet their needs. That's as good as it can get under the current system. We are all very aware of the flaws in capitalism that lead to a macroeconomic market demand gap. Unfortunately this cannot be fixed through microeconomic practice, as you seem to erroneously believe. Furthermore, expecting us to operate in a gray market, while somehow also making a capitalist enterprise a miniature commune, is absolutely ludicrous. Edited January 23, 2017 by motonoggin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcticCrusher Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 1 minute ago, Highmark said: However you want to manipulate it so you get to keep the farm. What about the weed business he wants to profit from? Give it a rest already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share Posted January 23, 2017 1 minute ago, Highmark said: However you want to manipulate it so you get to keep the farm. Um, no, it's pretty much how we determine what is and is not personal property. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcticCrusher Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 1 minute ago, motonoggin said: Everyone gets a good value for their physical and intellectual labor. Some labor is more valuable than others for a variety of reasons. That doesn't mean everyone gets paid the same, it's based on input, and our workers are able to meet their needs. That's as good as it can get under the current system. We are all very aware of the flaws in capitalism that lead to a macroeconomic market demand gap. Unfortunately this cannot be fixed through microeconomic practice, as you seem to erroneously believe. Furthermore, expecting us to not only operate in a gray market, while somehow also making a capitalist enterprise a miniature commune, is absolutely ludicrous. How is that different than most businesses agreements with employees? Cuba has a better model. Viva Castro. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share Posted January 23, 2017 (edited) 4 minutes ago, ArcticCrusher said: What about the weed business he wants to profit from? Give it a rest already. Profit is surplus value of someone else's labor. Profit is not receiving the full value of your production/labor. Edited January 23, 2017 by motonoggin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share Posted January 23, 2017 1 minute ago, ArcticCrusher said: How is that different than most businesses agreements with employees? Cuba has a better model. Viva Castro. Because under capitalism, workers aren't getting the full value of their labor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02sled Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 3 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Everyone gets a good value for their physical and intellectual labor. Some labor is more valuable than others for a variety of reasons. That doesn't mean everyone gets paid the same, it's based on input, and our workers are able to meet their needs. That's as good as it can get under the current system. We are all very aware of the flaws in capitalism that lead to a macroeconomic market demand gap. Unfortunately this cannot be fixed through microeconomic practice, as you seem to erroneously believe. Furthermore, expecting us to not only operate in a gray market, while somehow also making a capitalist enterprise a miniature commune, is absolutely ludicrous. More BS spin to make sure you have more money in your pocket than your employees comrade. So your employees meet their needs. That would be what? Food and shelter? Exactly what is stopping you from paying them the same as you even under a capitalist system. Oh that's right... absolutely nothing. Your business, you can choose to pay the janitor $100,000 a year if you want. Oh but that would mean you have less in your pocket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted January 23, 2017 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted January 23, 2017 2 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Um, no, it's pretty much how we determine what is and is not personal property. Everything I've read on anarcho-communism does not allow one to own "land." Just now, motonoggin said: Profit is surplus value of someone else's labor. Profit is not receiving the full value of your production. Who determines the "value of your production?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02sled Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 3 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Because under capitalism, workers aren't getting the full value of their labor. So fix that in your business. Why should you profit from your employees labour. In your utopia you shouldn't since that would create classes, lower, middle and upper. You know... where some people are able to have nicer homes, clothes and cars than others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcticCrusher Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 3 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Profit is surplus value of someone else's labor. Profit is not receiving the full value of your production/labor. I guess you won't be successful. Do you pay employees an hourly wage or a % of the profit? Let me know how that works for you in La La Land? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02sled Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 4 minutes ago, Highmark said: Everything I've read on anarcho-communism does not allow one to own "land." Who determines the "value of your production?" You're reading the wrong things. You're only allowed to read the doctrine of Motonoggin and nothing else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcticCrusher Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 5 minutes ago, Highmark said: Everything I've read on anarcho-communism does not allow one to own "land." Who determines the "value of your production?" Maybe he should move to a bartering model for employees and customers. Its all good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted January 23, 2017 Author Share Posted January 23, 2017 Just now, Highmark said: Everything I've read on anarcho-communism does not allow one to own "land." Who determines the "value of your production?" 2 minutes ago, 02sled said: More BS spin to make sure you have more money in your pocket than your employees comrade. So your employees meet their needs. That would be what? Food and shelter? Exactly what is stopping you from paying them the same as you even under a capitalist system. Oh that's right... absolutely nothing. Your business, you can choose to pay the janitor $100,000 a year if you want. Oh but that would mean you have less in your pocket. 'Equal pay for unequal work' is not the same as 'from each according to ability, to each according to need'. This fundamental misunderstanding is why you keep beating your dick against this wall. 1 minute ago, Highmark said: Everything I've read on anarcho-communism does not allow one to own "land." Who determines the "value of your production?" Umm, collective ownership by a family that use their production to feed themselves and trade for other necessities of life is completely compatible with anarcho communism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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