Sweden. Hopefully the start of a trend

[spin_dry]

2 minutes ago, BOHICA said:

Sweden acknowledged in the beginning they did little to protect the nursing homes.  1/2 of there death total is from nursing homes.  We have a region in the US that bombed this worse then anywhere in the World.  No where even comes close to bombing it as bad

Sweden’s death rate is 5 times that of Austria. Similar populations and health care delivery systems. Granted, Sweden has a tremendous issue with obesity, yet if any country blew it, it’s Sweden. 

[Woodtick]

13 minutes ago, XCR1250 said:

6 of my friends live in Florida, 2 are snowbirds, they claim it's low there because the temps. are in the upper 80's and 90's.

I’m hearing a lot of this as well. OA temp plays a factor in this.

[BOHICA]

1 minute ago, ckf said:

Lots of variables here. When did other countries close down international travel?  I believe some of Europe had closed down while we were still open for business and accepting foreign travelers.

I think most of Europe got pissed when we shut down travel from all of the EU except the U.K.  I think we had threads here criticizing trump for shutdown travel from the EU

[ckf]

4 minutes ago, Woodtick said:

I’m hearing a lot of this as well. OA temp plays a factor in this.

We're fucked if that's the case, haven't seen my weather station hit 90 since we have been here in northern VT. 

[BOHICA]

2 minutes ago, spin_dry said:

Sweden’s death rate is 5 times that of Austria. Similar populations and health care delivery systems. Granted, Sweden has a tremendous issue with obesity, yet if any country blew it, it’s Sweden. 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

 

death and cases per million column.  They aren’t doing too bad.    Compare to NY state or NJ they are a shining star.  But there isn’t a country in the world that isn’t a shining star compared to NY’s response to the Virus.

[ckf]

5 minutes ago, BOHICA said:

I think most of Europe got pissed when we shut down travel from all of the EU except the U.K.  I think we had threads here criticizing trump for shutdown travel from the EU

I think we can all agree that the whole thing was a mess. Hopefully we are better prepared the next time this happens.

[racer254]

9 minutes ago, spin_dry said:

Sweden’s death rate is 5 times that of Austria. Similar populations and health care delivery systems. Granted, Sweden has a tremendous issue with obesity, yet if any country blew it, it’s Sweden. 

LOL

The World Health Organization (WHO) this week praised Sweden as a potential “model” for battling the COVID-19 virus sweeping nations around the world.

Sweden, unlike most other nations, has avoided the hardline approach to the novel coronavirus pandemic that has resulted in mass economic shutdowns and vast unemployment. Bars, restaurants, libraries, public pools, and most schools remain open in the nation of 10 million, which has drawn fire from critics skeptical of the state’s “laissez-faire” approach.

On Wednesday, however, the WHO’s top emergencies expert said Sweden’s social distancing policies are often misunderstood.

“I think there’s a perception out that Sweden has not put in control measures and just has allowed the disease to spread,” Dr. Mike Ryan told reporters. “Nothing can be further from the truth.”

Ryan said the biggest difference between Sweden and most nations is that the Swedes are encouraging voluntary participation with its citizens while focusing government resources on at risk populations.

“What it has done differently is it has very much relied on its relationship with its citizenry and the ability and willingness of its citizens to implement self-distancing and self-regulate,” Ryan said. “In that sense, they have implemented public policy through that partnership with the population.”

Partnership is the key word. Sweden isn’t simply issuing sweeping orders and fining or arresting those who disobey. Instead, Swedish leaders are seeking to work in cooperation with its citizenry. They are giving them information and asking them to behave responsibly.

As my colleague Dan Sanchez pointed out last week, this approach once was part of the fiber of the American system.

“Measures based on individual responsibility used to be part of the American model, too, as codified in the Bill of Rights. Yet we have developed a culture of reflexively giving up that responsibility and those rights whenever we get scared: of terrorists, of economic hardship, of a virus.”

Many seem to believe that voluntary actions are somehow less effective than government dictates, but this is simply not true. Human cooperation and voluntary action are essential ingredients to a vibrant, prosperous culture.

“The hallmark of civil society is cooperation, which is what we should all be thinking about at times like these. The coronavirus defines our collective life at present, but cooperation defines our collective life as a rule. Always,” write economist Ant Davies and political scientist James Harrigan. “When our knee-jerk reaction to immediate problems is to coerce, as is so often the case, we push the obvious solutions to our problems into the background. And still, people cooperate.”

It’s a lesson we’ve simply forgotten. As the economic destruction from our latest collective panic grows, we are seeing the price of our impulse to use raw government force as a means to an end. In the U.S. alone, 30 million of people have filed for unemployment. Food production and distribution is being disrupted; slaughterhouses are closing and stocks are being euthanized. The costs, in the US and around the globe, will be severe.

Sweden, on the other hand, has avoided some of the economic destruction other countries are facing, though like its neighbors, the nation is still projecting a contraction in GDP and increased unemployment. Importantly, however, Sweden is also wildly outperforming models predicting COVID-19 deaths. A recent study predicted that “current Swedish public-health strategy will result in a peak intensive-care load in May that exceeds pre-pandemic capacity by over 40-fold, with a median mortality of 96,000.”

As we head into May, Sweden’s COVID-19 death toll stands just over 2,500. Hospitals are not being overrun. Meanwhile Anders Tegnell, Sweden’s top epidemiologist and the architect of its COVID-19 response, tells USA Today that its capital is nearing herd immunity.

“We think that up to 25% people in Stockholm have been exposed to coronavirus and are possibly immune,” said Tegnell. “A recent survey from one of our hospitals in Stockholm found that 27% of staff there are immune. We could reach herd immunity in Stockholm within a matter of weeks.”

Sweden’s results speak for themselves, which is no doubt why the WHO this week touted the Scandinavian country as “a model” for the rest of the world as humans seek to return to normalcy.

“I think if we are to reach a new normal, Sweden represents a model if we wish to get back to a society in which we don’t have lockdowns,” Ryan told reporters.

This is not to say Sweden’s approach is without costs or tradeoffs. Nothing in life is. While Sweden’s per capita death toll is better than most of its European neighbors – France, the UK, Belgium, Italy, Spain, and the Netherland, among them – it also has a higher per capita fatality rate than its Scandinavian neighbors, Norway and Finland. It’s even possible that Sweden will reach the dire morbidity projections of the modelers, though highly unlikely.

Whatever the future holds, the world owes Sweden thanks. The Swedes have shown us a better way. They’ve reminded us that the proper role of the state is to inform individuals and work with them, to seek voluntary action and cooperation instead of resorting to blunt force and edicts.

Perhaps most importantly, Sweden showed that viruses are medical problems, not political ones. When we start to see them as the latter, everyone loses.

Edited May 4, 2020 by racer254

[AKIQPilot]

16 minutes ago, spin_dry said:

New York got hit hard because of the degree of foreign visitors they receive. It’s twice that of LA. They got slammed from both Asia and Europe. Couple that with their mass transit system, and it was bound to happen. 

Nursing homes in NYC and NJ are being especially hard hit. They have done a very poor job of protecting their old people. Worse that anywhere else in the US. . 

[ckf]

2 minutes ago, racer254 said:

LOL

The World Health Organization (WHO) this week praised Sweden as a potential “model” for battling the COVID-19 virus sweeping nations around the world.

Sweden, unlike most other nations, has avoided the hardline approach to the novel coronavirus pandemic that has resulted in mass economic shutdowns and vast unemployment. Bars, restaurants, libraries, public pools, and most schools remain open in the nation of 10 million, which has drawn fire from critics skeptical of the state’s “laissez-faire” approach.

On Wednesday, however, the WHO’s top emergencies expert said Sweden’s social distancing policies are often misunderstood.

“I think there’s a perception out that Sweden has not put in control measures and just has allowed the disease to spread,” Dr. Mike Ryan told reporters. “Nothing can be further from the truth.”

Ryan said the biggest difference between Sweden and most nations is that the Swedes are encouraging voluntary participation with its citizens while focusing government resources on at risk populations.

“What it has done differently is it has very much relied on its relationship with its citizenry and the ability and willingness of its citizens to implement self-distancing and self-regulate,” Ryan said. “In that sense, they have implemented public policy through that partnership with the population.”

Partnership is the key word. Sweden isn’t simply issuing sweeping orders and fining or arresting those who disobey. Instead, Swedish leaders are seeking to work in cooperation with its citizenry. They are giving them information and asking them to behave responsibly.

As my colleague Dan Sanchez pointed out last week, this approach once was part of the fiber of the American system.

“Measures based on individual responsibility used to be part of the American model, too, as codified in the Bill of Rights. Yet we have developed a culture of reflexively giving up that responsibility and those rights whenever we get scared: of terrorists, of economic hardship, of a virus.”

Many seem to believe that voluntary actions are somehow less effective than government dictates, but this is simply not true. Human cooperation and voluntary action are essential ingredients to a vibrant, prosperous culture.

“The hallmark of civil society is cooperation, which is what we should all be thinking about at times like these. The coronavirus defines our collective life at present, but cooperation defines our collective life as a rule. Always,” write economist Ant Davies and political scientist James Harrigan. “When our knee-jerk reaction to immediate problems is to coerce, as is so often the case, we push the obvious solutions to our problems into the background. And still, people cooperate.”

It’s a lesson we’ve simply forgotten. As the economic destruction from our latest collective panic grows, we are seeing the price of our impulse to use raw government force as a means to an end. In the U.S. alone, 30 million of people have filed for unemployment. Food production and distribution is being disrupted; slaughterhouses are closing and stocks are being euthanized. The costs, in the US and around the globe, will be severe.

Sweden, on the other hand, has avoided some of the economic destruction other countries are facing, though like its neighbors, the nation is still projecting a contraction in GDP and increased unemployment. Importantly, however, Sweden is also wildly outperforming models predicting COVID-19 deaths. A recent study predicted that “current Swedish public-health strategy will result in a peak intensive-care load in May that exceeds pre-pandemic capacity by over 40-fold, with a median mortality of 96,000.”

As we head into May, Sweden’s COVID-19 death toll stands just over 2,500. Hospitals are not being overrun. Meanwhile Anders Tegnell, Sweden’s top epidemiologist and the architect of its COVID-19 response, tells USA Today that its capital is nearing herd immunity.

“We think that up to 25% people in Stockholm have been exposed to coronavirus and are possibly immune,” said Tegnell. “A recent survey from one of our hospitals in Stockholm found that 27% of staff there are immune. We could reach herd immunity in Stockholm within a matter of weeks.”

Sweden’s results speak for themselves, which is no doubt why the WHO this week touted the Scandinavian country as “a model” for the rest of the world as humans seek to return to normalcy.

“I think if we are to reach a new normal, Sweden represents a model if we wish to get back to a society in which we don’t have lockdowns,” Ryan told reporters.

This is not to say Sweden’s approach is without costs or tradeoffs. Nothing in life is. While Sweden’s per capita death toll is better than most of its European neighbors – France, the UK, Belgium, Italy, Spain, and the Netherland, among them – it also has a higher per capita fatality rate than its Scandinavian neighbors, Norway and Finland. It’s even possible that Sweden will reach the dire morbidity projections of the modelers, though highly unlikely.

Whatever the future holds, the world owes Sweden thanks. The Swedes have shown us a better way. They’ve reminded us that the proper role of the state is to inform individuals and work with them, to seek voluntary action and cooperation instead of resorting to blunt force and edicts.

Perhaps most importantly, Sweden showed that viruses are medical problems, not political ones. When we start to see them as the latter, everyone loses.

Weren't you one of the ones that was bashing the WHO when it didn't match your view?

[racer254]

Just now, ckf said:

Weren't you one of the ones that was bashing the WHO when it didn't match your view?

NOPE.  Try again.  

[Woodtick]

6 minutes ago, ckf said:

We're fucked if that's the case, haven't seen my weather station hit 90 since we have been here in northern VT. 

It’s supposed to snow a few times this week up by my cabin.

[ckf]

2 minutes ago, racer254 said:

NOPE.  Try again.  

Sorry     Several here have though...

2 minutes ago, Woodtick said:

It’s supposed to snow a few times this week up by my cabin.

Same here 

[spin_dry]

10 minutes ago, racer254 said:

LOL

The World Health Organization (WHO) this week praised Sweden as a potential “model” for battling the COVID-19 virus sweeping nations around the world.

Sweden, unlike most other nations, has avoided the hardline approach to the novel coronavirus pandemic that has resulted in mass economic shutdowns and vast unemployment. Bars, restaurants, libraries, public pools, and most schools remain open in the nation of 10 million, which has drawn fire from critics skeptical of the state’s “laissez-faire” approach.

On Wednesday, however, the WHO’s top emergencies expert said Sweden’s social distancing policies are often misunderstood.

“I think there’s a perception out that Sweden has not put in control measures and just has allowed the disease to spread,” Dr. Mike Ryan told reporters. “Nothing can be further from the truth.”

Ryan said the biggest difference between Sweden and most nations is that the Swedes are encouraging voluntary participation with its citizens while focusing government resources on at risk populations.

“What it has done differently is it has very much relied on its relationship with its citizenry and the ability and willingness of its citizens to implement self-distancing and self-regulate,” Ryan said. “In that sense, they have implemented public policy through that partnership with the population.”

Partnership is the key word. Sweden isn’t simply issuing sweeping orders and fining or arresting those who disobey. Instead, Swedish leaders are seeking to work in cooperation with its citizenry. They are giving them information and asking them to behave responsibly.

As my colleague Dan Sanchez pointed out last week, this approach once was part of the fiber of the American system.

“Measures based on individual responsibility used to be part of the American model, too, as codified in the Bill of Rights. Yet we have developed a culture of reflexively giving up that responsibility and those rights whenever we get scared: of terrorists, of economic hardship, of a virus.”

Many seem to believe that voluntary actions are somehow less effective than government dictates, but this is simply not true. Human cooperation and voluntary action are essential ingredients to a vibrant, prosperous culture.

“The hallmark of civil society is cooperation, which is what we should all be thinking about at times like these. The coronavirus defines our collective life at present, but cooperation defines our collective life as a rule. Always,” write economist Ant Davies and political scientist James Harrigan. “When our knee-jerk reaction to immediate problems is to coerce, as is so often the case, we push the obvious solutions to our problems into the background. And still, people cooperate.”

It’s a lesson we’ve simply forgotten. As the economic destruction from our latest collective panic grows, we are seeing the price of our impulse to use raw government force as a means to an end. In the U.S. alone, 30 million of people have filed for unemployment. Food production and distribution is being disrupted; slaughterhouses are closing and stocks are being euthanized. The costs, in the US and around the globe, will be severe.

Sweden, on the other hand, has avoided some of the economic destruction other countries are facing, though like its neighbors, the nation is still projecting a contraction in GDP and increased unemployment. Importantly, however, Sweden is also wildly outperforming models predicting COVID-19 deaths. A recent study predicted that “current Swedish public-health strategy will result in a peak intensive-care load in May that exceeds pre-pandemic capacity by over 40-fold, with a median mortality of 96,000.”

As we head into May, Sweden’s COVID-19 death toll stands just over 2,500. Hospitals are not being overrun. Meanwhile Anders Tegnell, Sweden’s top epidemiologist and the architect of its COVID-19 response, tells USA Today that its capital is nearing herd immunity.

“We think that up to 25% people in Stockholm have been exposed to coronavirus and are possibly immune,” said Tegnell. “A recent survey from one of our hospitals in Stockholm found that 27% of staff there are immune. We could reach herd immunity in Stockholm within a matter of weeks.”

Sweden’s results speak for themselves, which is no doubt why the WHO this week touted the Scandinavian country as “a model” for the rest of the world as humans seek to return to normalcy.

“I think if we are to reach a new normal, Sweden represents a model if we wish to get back to a society in which we don’t have lockdowns,” Ryan told reporters.

This is not to say Sweden’s approach is without costs or tradeoffs. Nothing in life is. While Sweden’s per capita death toll is better than most of its European neighbors – France, the UK, Belgium, Italy, Spain, and the Netherland, among them – it also has a higher per capita fatality rate than its Scandinavian neighbors, Norway and Finland. It’s even possible that Sweden will reach the dire morbidity projections of the modelers, though highly unlikely.

Whatever the future holds, the world owes Sweden thanks. The Swedes have shown us a better way. They’ve reminded us that the proper role of the state is to inform individuals and work with them, to seek voluntary action and cooperation instead of resorting to blunt force and edicts.

Perhaps most importantly, Sweden showed that viruses are medical problems, not political ones. When we start to see them as the latter, everyone loses.

World Health Organization.    

[Woodtick]

3 minutes ago, ckf said:

Sorry     Several here have though...

Same here 

 

[AKIQPilot]

Just now, spin_dry said:

World Health Organization.    

IKR. Hard to believe anything from the medical establishment these days isn't it?  

[BOHICA]

13 minutes ago, ckf said:

I think we can all agree that the whole thing was a mess. Hopefully we are better prepared the next time this happens.

I don’t think our country as a whole bombed.  I think overall the response in most states was appropriate for their states.  Take South Dakota for example.... they have one of the lowest death rates from this in the entire country.  They didn’t really lock down and were criticized by some for it...  they had/have the appropriate response.

 

i only think 1 state bombed this and that is NY....  mainly just NYC.  They didn’t do the appropriate level of response and responded horribly for their situation.  Their incompetence spilled outside their borders unfortunately.

Edited May 4, 2020 by BOHICA

[spin_dry]

Just now, AKIQPilot said:

IKR. Hard to believe anything from the medical establishment these days isn't it?  

There’s actually some very good information available. But there’s also some very bad information as well. Given the behavior of the WHO, I wouldn’t trust anything coming out of that org. 

[AKIQPilot]

Just now, spin_dry said:

There’s actually some very good information available. But there’s also some very bad information as well. Given the behavior of the WHO, I wouldn’t trust anything coming out of that org. 

Hahahaha

 

[racer254]

9 minutes ago, ckf said:

Sorry     Several here have though...

Same here 

Yes, a few were.  

[Zambroski]

1 minute ago, ckf said:

Sorry     Several here have though...

 

 

I was one I'm sure.  I'm adament in my objection to the WHO and the UN.  In fact, their 'praise" for Sweden's model is only there to cover their own pathetic asses.  Both the UN and the WHO are corrupt world players extorting nations (mainly ours) to push their diplomatic powers for a "one world order" agenda.  They can suck it as far as I am concerned.

Just now, BOHICA said:

I don’t think our country as a whole bombed.  I think overall the response in most states was appropriate for their states.  Take South Dakota for example.... they have one of the lowest death rates from this in the entire country.  They didn’t really lock down and were criticized by some for it...  they had/have the appropriate response.

 

i only think 1 state bombed this and that is NY....  mainly just NYC.  They didn’t do the appropriate level of response and responded horribly for their situation.  Their incompetence spilled outside their borders unfortunately.

Agreed.  A response and some pro-action was needed and necessary.  How we went about it was fucked up from the start from pathetic state and city leaders.

[spin_dry]

14 minutes ago, AKIQPilot said:

Nursing homes in NYC and NJ are being especially hard hit. They have done a very poor job of protecting their old people. Worse that anywhere else in the US. . 

No doubt. The model country is South Korea. They were on top of this thing right from the very beginning. They got a handle on the rate of infection with testing and a solid data base. All of that
positive stuff comes from a central government that had its shit together. 

[AKIQPilot]

3 minutes ago, spin_dry said:

No doubt. The model country is South Korea. They were on top of this thing right from the very beginning. They got a handle on the rate of infection with testing and a solid data base. All of that
positive stuff comes from a central government that had its shit together. 

The US healthcare system has been unprepared for something like this for 2 decades.  

[Zambroski]

Just now, spin_dry said:

No doubt. The model country is South Korea. They were on top of this thing right from the very beginning. They got a handle on the rate of infection with testing and a solid data base. All of that
positive stuff comes from a central government that had its shit together. 

Translation:  Trumps fault.   

No..these states fucked up enough all on their own.  NY and NJ are absolute trainwrecks and that falls DIRECTLY on their leadership.  This "testing" everyone is screaming about just isn't the answer to the virus.  It's being used as a red herring to give people something to whine about.

[AKIQPilot]

1 minute ago, Zambroski said:

Translation:  Trumps fault.   

No..these states fucked up enough all on their own.  NY and NJ are absolute trainwrecks and that falls DIRECTLY on their leadership.  This "testing" everyone is screaming about just isn't the answer to the virus.  It's being used as a red herring to give people something to whine about.

Exactly.  

[BOHICA]

5 minutes ago, spin_dry said:

No doubt. The model country is South Korea. They were on top of this thing right from the very beginning. They got a handle on the rate of infection with testing and a solid data base. All of that
positive stuff comes from a central government that had its shit together. 

South Korea hasn’t tested much above 12,000 per million people.  The amounts of test they have done on their population is pretty pathetic.  Most likely just under reporting.