SnoWest Cover

[AKIQPilot]

5 minutes ago, Zambroski said:

That makes one in your household.  

 

Ooooops. Hahahaha

[Highmark]

1 hour ago, Zambroski said:

Me too.  But. I’d sure take Yamaha as a proper suitor over Textron at this point.  Like I said, September.  That’s all I think the Cat faithful are going to give them.  Me included.  New racers are on the way....so I’ve heard but, I’ve heard that just before they cancelled the racing program.  So....

I'm not sold on it being good for Cat if Yamaha were to buy them out.   Too long of history of being satisfied with 4th place in the industry.   Honestly they were 5 years late on some UTV offerings.   Too big of company in my book.   Fuck them.  

We all agree the UTV/ATV market strength is getting a lot of focus over sleds and rightfully so from a business perspective.   Now add dozens of other markets like Yamaha and Textron have and the sled division even becomes that much less important.   

 

Edited March 11, 2020 by Highmark

[Zambroski]

8 minutes ago, Highmark said:

I'm not sold on it being good for Cat if Yamaha were to buy them out.   Too long of history of being satisfied with 4th place in the industry.   Honestly they were 5 years late on some UTV offerings.   Too big of company in my book.   Fuck them.  

We all agree the UTV/ATV market strength is getting a lot of focus over sleds and rightfully so from a business perspective.   Now add dozens of other markets like Yamaha and Textron have and the sled division even becomes that much less important.   

 

Good points for sure.  I just know I’m displeased with what Textron has done with the brand.  

[f7ben]

1 minute ago, Zambroski said:

Good points for sure.  I just know I’m displeased with what Textron has done with the brand.  

They are running out the parts bin and they will be shutting the doors. The procross chassis not being replaced immediately was the death knell 

[Zambroski]

Just now, f7ben said:

They are running out the parts bin and they will be shutting the doors. The procross chassis not being replaced immediately was the death knell 

Shhhhhhhh.....go back to sleep now.

[Highmark]

8 minutes ago, Zambroski said:

Good points for sure.  I just know I’m displeased with what Textron has done with the brand.  

The Textron buy of Cat was the worst thing that could happen.   Think of the R&D that goes into aviation with Bell, Cessna and Beechcraft and their robotics divisions.   Very little crossover as far as mfg goes there to OHV's.

I think we all agree that SkiDoo is the industry leader by far when it comes to innovation.   That model of a more limited focus that Doo and Poo has is what brings us the best sleds.  

Don't get me wrong I love my Sidewinder as its the best option for high HP sled and I may upgrade it in the next 3 years however Cat is falling behind.   I'm not saying their sleds are not decent or good....even great in certain area's however they just are not bringing any innovation to the industry.  

If Cat and Yamaha are pooling their R&D together we should expect more....much more.  

Edited March 11, 2020 by Highmark

[Zambroski]

5 minutes ago, Highmark said:

The Textron buy of Cat was the worst thing that could happen.   Think of the R&D that goes into aviation with Bell, Cessna and Beechcraft and their robotics divisions.   Very little crossover as far as mfg goes there to OHV's.

I think we all agree that SkiDoo is the industry leader by far when it comes to innovation.   That model of a more limited focus that Doo and Poo has is what brings us the best sleds.  

Don't get me wrong I love my Sidewinder as its the best option for high HP sled and I may upgrade it in the next 3 years however Cat is falling behind.   I'm not saying their sleds are not decent or good....even great in certain area's however they just are not bringing any innovation to the industry.  

I think Textron wanted a way to dive hard into the wheeled market.  They got a big wake up on the AC brand loyalists when they changed the name on the seats then, had to change it back.  Oops..

As far as “innovation” goes. I think Cat is still up there with the rest in the areas that matter.....for now at least.  That’s why I find their race development dept. so important.  That’s where they develop new ideas.

I don’t give much care about BNGs, gimmicks, gauges and an extra 40-50 cc’s that contribute to mass consumer ego more than performance.

[Highmark]

Just now, Zambroski said:

I think Textron wanted a way to dive hard into the wheeled market.  They got a big wake up on the AC brand loyalists when they changed the name on the seats then, had to change it back.  Oops..

As far as “innovation” goes. I think Cat is still up there with the rest in the areas that matter.....for now at least.  That’s why I find their race development dept. so important.  That’s where they develop new ideas.

I don’t give much care about BNGs, gimmicks, gauges and an extra 40-50 cc’s that contribute to mass consumer ego more than performance.

Couldn't disagree more.   What innovative in the last 10 years has Cat brought forward.   I'll give them the 4 stroke Turbo and the Alpha skid for the mountains which not everyone likes.   I can't think of much else.   Poo doesn't even hold a candle to Doo when it comes to innovation.     

[Zambroski]

Just now, Highmark said:

Couldn't disagree more.   What innovative in the last 10 years has Cat brought forward.   I'll give them the 4 stroke Turbo and the Alpha skid for the mountains which not everyone likes.   I can't think of much else.   Poo doesn't even hold a candle to Doo when it comes to innovation.     

Where do you feel one brand so much further ahead of another with the new sleds?  Each has their plus and minus sides but, I think they are all pretty equal on their actual product.

I am in no way saying either Cat or Poo has contributed near what Doo has in innovation to the sled industry.  That’s foolish thought.

[Highmark]

12 minutes ago, Zambroski said:

Where do you feel one brand so much further ahead of another with the new sleds?  Each has their plus and minus sides but, I think they are all pretty equal on their actual product.

I am in no way saying either Cat or Poo has contributed near what Doo has in innovation to the sled industry.  That’s foolish thought.

Features.   Fit and Finish.   

As far as sled handling I think its the ability to make the chassis either playful or strictly flat handling.   I can do both on my Poo and Doo.   I really think its tough to give the ProCross that playful feel.   Is it the flatest cornering sled....yes.....can I make a Poo or Doo almost as good.....yes.   

I posted before this weekend was the first time I set my Poo strictly for handling flat.   It was extremely flat cornering and ProCross comparable with plenty of playful, light front end feel to it.    Made me like a sled more that I already was in love with.   

To be fair my Doo comparison is from my 16 XRS which I still love how it rides and handles.   Still the best riding rear skid I've been on period.   I have no experience on the G4 other than hearing opinions from a number of buddies who ride them.  I've got some decent time on the ProCross between my Winder and a couple ProCross 2 strokes my brother has.  

Edited March 11, 2020 by Highmark

[Zambroski]

1 minute ago, Highmark said:

Features.   Fit and Finish.   

As far as sled handling I think its the ability to make the chassis either playful or strictly flat handling.   I can do both on my Poo and Doo.   I really think its tough to give the ProCross that playful feel.   Is it the flatest cornering sled....yes.....can I make a Poo or Doo almost as good.....yes.   

I posted before this weekend was the first time I set my Poo us strictly for handling flat.   It was extremely flat and ProCross comparable with plenty of playful, light front end feel to it.    

I almost didn’t read anything past “features, fit and finish”.

Features = gimmicks

Fit and finish = Usually means somebody is lost when discussing sleds.   I’ve asked several times over ten years what that means to some and still doesn’t pass more than “opinion” to me.  But, I ride a race sled so, that should tell anybody where my priorities are with “fit and finish”.  Consumer sleds, again, they are all pretty equal there....IMO.  *giggles

I want performance.  I don’t want “playful”.  I’ve yet to talk to anybody that will agree that the Poo can handle the curves on the trails like the PC can.  And I sure haven’t seen any.  You can’t have “playful” and performance.  It’s like having a crossover sled.  Good at a couple things but master at neither.

It all depends on what you want but, the Poos I’ve ridden (both Pro-S) but set up for hardcore trail riding (one with revalved shocks) felt like jet skis compared to my PC’s....or my last Doo.

 

 

 

[Kev144]

1 hour ago, Zambroski said:

I almost didn’t read anything past “features, fit and finish”.

Features = gimmicks

Fit and finish = Usually means somebody is lost when discussing sleds.   I’ve asked several times over ten years what that means to some and still doesn’t pass more than “opinion” to me.  But, I ride a race sled so, that should tell anybody where my priorities are with “fit and finish”.  Consumer sleds, again, they are all pretty equal there....IMO.  *giggles

I want performance.  I don’t want “playful”.  I’ve yet to talk to anybody that will agree that the Poo can handle the curves on the trails like the PC can.  And I sure haven’t seen any.  You can’t have “playful” and performance.  It’s like having a crossover sled.  Good at a couple things but master at neither.

It all depends on what you want but, the Poos I’ve ridden (both Pro-S) but set up for hardcore trail riding (one with revalved shocks) felt like jet skis compared to my PC’s....or my last Doo.

 

 

 

When I think of fit and finish, at least on the 2016 El tigre here, it was panels not lining up, gaps between them or plastics on the hood.  Some parts seem to rust quick and make squeaking noises etc etc. The starter sucks worse than the poo one. The 600 shredded a belt in 1000 miles.  It rode nice with the fox qs but was the slowest 600 between the poo and etec 600. Worst sled on gas and oil in the group as well.   Just to name some gripes. 

Edited March 11, 2020 by Kev144

[Highmark]

2 hours ago, Zambroski said:

I almost didn’t read anything past “features, fit and finish”.

Features = gimmicks

Fit and finish = Usually means somebody is lost when discussing sleds.   I’ve asked several times over ten years what that means to some and still doesn’t pass more than “opinion” to me.  But, I ride a race sled so, that should tell anybody where my priorities are with “fit and finish”.  Consumer sleds, again, they are all pretty equal there....IMO.  *giggles

I want performance.  I don’t want “playful”.  I’ve yet to talk to anybody that will agree that the Poo can handle the curves on the trails like the PC can.  And I sure haven’t seen any.  You can’t have “playful” and performance.  It’s like having a crossover sled.  Good at a couple things but master at neither.

It all depends on what you want but, the Poos I’ve ridden (both Pro-S) but set up for hardcore trail riding (one with revalved shocks) felt like jet skis compared to my PC’s....or my last Doo.

 

 

 

Dude, it might be a few years since my last Cat but Cat has a whole host of engineering/fit and finish issues that were quite major then and put a lasting impression on people.

On the Z1T's and ProCross 1100's the clutch alignment was horrible.

They also had tons of wire harness routing issues.   Different from sled to sled.

Hardware rusting. 

On new Turbo ProCross models (the 998) there is an exposed coolant hose that get damaged easily from ice and snow build up.   This went on for 4 years before they upgraded it this year.

Chain tensioner issues on the new turbo models.

No drain plug in the chaincase.

The reality is Cat didn't get the reputation for worst fit and finish for nothing.   Your not being honest if you think it ranks equal or higher than the other 2 or that it isn't important to a large percentage of buyers.

The vast majority of buyers are not buying race sleds.   Features are not gimmicks.   When doo came out with the engine reverse that was not a gimmick now they all have it.   The shot electric start system on the Doo is not a gimmick.   A factory turbo 2 stroke is not a gimmick.   Rider forward design is not a gimmick now they all have it.   External adjustable limiter strap on mountain sleds is not a gimmick.   External adjustable rear skid is not a gimmick.  By far the best accessories (Linq Q) system is not a gimmick.   

 

Edited March 11, 2020 by Highmark

[Anler]

2 hours ago, Zambroski said:

I almost didn’t read anything past “features, fit and finish”.

Features = gimmicks

Fit and finish = Usually means somebody is lost when discussing sleds.   I’ve asked several times over ten years what that means to some and still doesn’t pass more than “opinion” to me.  But, I ride a race sled so, that should tell anybody where my priorities are with “fit and finish”.  Consumer sleds, again, they are all pretty equal there....IMO.  *giggles

I want performance.  I don’t want “playful”.  I’ve yet to talk to anybody that will agree that the Poo can handle the curves on the trails like the PC can.  And I sure haven’t seen any.  You can’t have “playful” and performance.  It’s like having a crossover sled.  Good at a couple things but master at neither.

It all depends on what you want but, the Poos I’ve ridden (both Pro-S) but set up for hardcore trail riding (one with revalved shocks) felt like jet skis compared to my PC’s....or my last Doo.

 

 

 

So when you buy a new car or truck for you or the wife do you just buy the most basic model (no leather seats, roll up windows, no remote start, no cruise control, no premium stereo, no power anything, rubber floor mats on rubber floor, etc...) because that stuff is all gimmicks? yeah that sounds like something an arctic cat guy would say. 

Edited March 11, 2020 by Anler

[Zambroski]

8 minutes ago, Highmark said:

Dude, it might be a few years since my last Cat but Cat has a whole host of engineering/fit and finish issues that were quite major then and put a lasting impression on people.

On the Z1T's and ProCross 1100's the clutch alignment was horrible.

They also had tons of wire harness routing issues.   Different from sled to sled.

Hardware rusting. 

On new Turbo ProCross models (the 998) there is an exposed coolant hose that get damaged easily from ice and snow build up.   This went on for 4 years before they upgraded it this year.

Chain tensioner issues on the new turbo models.

No drain plug in the chaincase.

The reality is Cat didn't get the reputation for worst fit and finish for nothing.   Your not being honest if you think it ranks equal or higher than the other 2 or that it isn't important to a large percentage of buyers.

The vast majority of buyers are not buying race sleds.   Features are not gimmicks.   When doo came out with the engine reverse that was not a gimmick now they all have it.   The shot electric start system on the Doo is not a gimmick.   A factory turbo 2 stroke is not a gimmick.   Rider forward design is not a gimmick now they all have it.   External adjustable limiter strap on mountain sleds is not a gimmick.   External adjustable rear skid is not a gimmick.  By far the best accessories (Linq Q) system is not a gimmick.   

 

You own a Cat now.  How’s that “fit and finish”?

All these things you listed have an equally long list on other brands.  I, again, see not one brand so far above any other right now.  Yes, Doo holds the title still for the best performing, most reliable out of the box but, not by a lot anymore.  In fact, they are having piston and crank issues again with the 850.  Those same problems Poo is having aren’t new...they never fixed any, just when tip another 40cc’s.  Cat still has the worst stock clutching in the history of the CVT.  It’s all about what you know will be the weakness in your chosen ride vs. the strengths.  That’s all.  We all chose accordingly.  

4 minutes ago, Anler said:

So when you buy a new car or truck for you or the wife do you just buy the most basic model (no leather seats, roll up windows, no remote start, no cruise control, no premium stereo, no power anything, rubber floor mats on rubber floor, etc...) because that stuff is all gimmicks? yeah that sounds like something an arctic cat guy would say. 

My god.  This is exactly why I don’t talk hockey with people that have never laced up.  Enjoy your armchair.  

 

[Highmark]

10 minutes ago, Anler said:

So when you buy a new car or truck for you or the wife do you just buy the most basic model (no leather seats, roll up windows, no remote start, no cruise control, no premium stereo, no power anything, rubber floor mats on rubber floor, etc...) because that stuff is all gimmicks? yeah that sounds like something an arctic cat guy would say. 

I don't consider the handlebar adjustable suspension from Cat and Yammie a gimmick at all.   Wish I had it on all my sleds.  

[f7ben]

Now etec 850s are having piston and crank issues  

it’s the highest selling most reliable 2s on the market 

the fucking 600cc poser sled riding meathead knows less about sleds than his cracked out buddy ezzy 

[Zambroski]

1 minute ago, f7ben said:

Now etec 850s are having piston and crank issues  

it’s the highest selling most reliable 2s on the market 

the fucking 600cc poser sled riding meathead knows less about sleds than his cracked out buddy ezzy 

Sit next to Anler.  Hold one another.  Wooo him with your sledding prowess.  He’ll buy it.

 

[Highmark]

7 minutes ago, Zambroski said:

You own a Cat now.  How’s that “fit and finish”?

All these things you listed have an equally long list on other brands.  I, again, see not one brand so far above any other right now.  Yes, Doo holds the title still for the best performing, most reliable out of the box but, not by a lot anymore.  In fact, they are having piston and crank issues again with the 850.  Those same problems Poo is having aren’t new...they never fixed any, just when tip another 40cc’s.  Cat still has the worst stock clutching in the history of the CVT.  It’s all about what you know will be the weakness in your chosen ride vs. the strengths.  That’s all.  We all chose accordingly.  

My god.  This is exactly why I don’t talk hockey with people that have never laced up.  Enjoy your armchair.  

 

Valid point as I haven't had a new Cat in some time however history is hard to overcome and they play a role in some of the known issues on my Sidewinder.

The fact is Cat is 3rd in sales by some distance.   Do they make a great sled?   Absolutely.   Would I own one?   Absolutely.   Comes down to what we each want to ride.   I have a certain riding style now that I like so I buy models that I've researched and test rode that most fit that criteria.   Said this before.   If ripping up the trails as fast as I could was my number one priority I'd likely own a Cat.   Actually kind of do because I've never owned a sled I can trail ride faster over a variety of trails than my Sidewinder however, I also love the playful feel of a light front end doing wheelies every opportunity I can, jumping off the small hills on the trails is also a huge priority to me now and why I also own a 850 Poo.  

Edited March 11, 2020 by Highmark

[Zambroski]

2 minutes ago, Highmark said:

Valid point as I haven't had a new Cat in some time however history is hard to overcome and they play a role in some of the known issues on my Sidewinder.

The fact is Cat is 3rd in sales by some distance.   Do they make a great sled?   Absolutely.   Would I own one?   Absolutely.   Comes down to what we each want to ride.   I have a certain riding style now that I like so I buy models that I've researched and test rode that most fit that criteria.   Said this before.   If ripping up the trails as fast as I could was my number one priority I'd likely own a Cat.   Actually kind of do because I've never owned a sled I can trail ride faster over a variety of trails than my Sidewinder however, I also love the playful feel of a light front end lifting my skis up every opportunity I can, jumping off the small hills on the trails is also a huge priority to me now and why I also own a 850 Poo.  

Indeed.  I sit in a very low minority even within the group I will ride with. My sleds are set up to be, ummmm.....”horrifying” is the way one of my buds described it.  He couldn’t wait to get off of it.  I also don’t ride like most.  The thought of a 200 mile day on my sled makes my body ache just typing this.  And to be honest, I think Poo makes probably the most comfortable, forgiving and overall good performance sled for that.  The Axys is a good set up...and their sales show it.

Again, it’s all about what we want out of our machines.

Truth:  I’m starting to come around to the idea of having two sleds now.  One for my absolute idiocy and the occasional track and the other for more white people-ish, appropriate riding.  

 

 

[Highmark]

Just now, Zambroski said:

Indeed.  I sit in a very low minority even within the group I will ride with. My sleds are set up to be, ummmm.....”horrifying” is the way one of my buds described it.  He couldn’t wait to get off of it.  I also don’t ride like most.  The thought of a 200 mile day on my sled makes my body ache just typing this.  And to be honest, I think Poo makes probably the most comfortable, forgiving and overall good performance sled for that.  The Axys is a good set up...and their sales show it.

Again, it’s all about what we want out of our machines.

Truth:  I’m starting to come around to the idea of having two sleds now.  One for my absolute idiocy and the occasional track and the other for more white people-ish, appropriate riding.  

 

 

Good post.   I just don't need an all out ditch banger/sno cross racer anymore.   Riding like that is so limited for me anymore and even then my XRS or XC can do it extremely well with minor adjustments.   The reality of the ProCross chassis to me is you really have to ride it hard to appreciate it for what it is.   Vast majority of consumers don't ride that way. 

 

[Zambroski]

2 minutes ago, Highmark said:

Good post.   I just don't need an all out ditch banger/sno cross racer anymore.   Riding like that is so limited for me anymore and even then my XRS or XC can do it extremely well with minor adjustments.   The reality of the ProCross chassis to me is you really have to ride it hard to appreciate it for what it is.   Vast majority of consumers don't ride that way. 

 

BAM!   Nailed it.  it’s just not a forgiving chassis in spite of everything Cat has tried to make it.  It’s just not.  Hence their sales numbers....well, that and arguably the worst leadership picking board members in the history of any public company.

[Highmark]

10 minutes ago, Zambroski said:

BAM!   Nailed it.  it’s just not a forgiving chassis in spite of everything Cat has tried to make it.  It’s just not.  Hence their sales numbers....well, that and arguably the worst leadership picking board members in the history of any public company.

Take a look at the mountain segment.   Poo and Doo are making very specific models now to the different riding styles out west.   Whether you want a point and shoot climber, a wheelie machine that's great for play or the jumper.   Different set ups for different riding styles.   Cat basically has one sled set up for the whole market. 

Polaris Pro RMK, Khaos, SKS

Doo Summit, Summit Extreme, Free Ride  

Arctic Cat Alpha with different shocks/tracks. 

Edited March 11, 2020 by Highmark

[Anler]

35 minutes ago, f7ben said:

Now etec 850s are having piston and crank issues  

it’s the highest selling most reliable 2s on the market 

the fucking 600cc poser sled riding meathead knows less about sleds than his cracked out buddy ezzy 

Yeah and the "old reliable" cat 600's are going down like dominoes! Pfft! If I had a quarter for every time my etecs and Polaris were supposed to explode I could buy a 2021 procross!

[Zambroski]

30 minutes ago, Highmark said:

Take a look at the mountain segment.   Poo and Doo are making very specific models now to the different riding styles out west.   Whether you want a point and shoot climber, a wheelie machine that's great for play or the jumper.   Different set ups for different riding styles.   Cat basically has one sled set up for the whole market. 

Polaris Pro RMK, Khaos, SKS

Doo Summit, Summit Extreme, Free Ride  

Arctic Cat Alpha with different shocks/tracks. 

Yeah, I don’t follow the mountain segment much or, really, at all.  So, I don’t know what all is needed/not needed there.

I know this, I think too many models are being spit out.  Sometimes less is more.  Somebody on HCS posted all the models that Poo has this year and it’s just a retarded combination.  I say, start with a base and order it up from there.  Do away with spring checks.  Three base models per segment to start should be plenty.