XC.Morrison Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 Found these nasty wound pics with discussion: http://www.m4carbine.net/archive/index.php/t-31666.html * Note, this is in the Phillipines: "Victim was shot with a 20-inch barreled M16A1 at 5-10 meters distance by cop." "Spent brass casing brought in by investigating cops show the headstamp "WCC 76". "On surgery, empty cavity in the anterior thigh was around 4x4 inches wide. Leg was saved, since the neurovascular structures were not hit, though thigh circumference was much narrower post-op, as alot of devitalized muscle had to be removed." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtralettucetomatoe580 Posted June 14, 2018 Author Share Posted June 14, 2018 1 minute ago, XC.Morrison said: Found these nasty wound pics with discussion: http://www.m4carbine.net/archive/index.php/t-31666.html * Note, this is in the Phillipines: "Victim was shot with a 20-inch barreled M16A1 at 5-10 meters distance by cop." "Spent brass casing brought in by investigating cops show the headstamp "WCC 76". "On surgery, empty cavity in the anterior thigh was around 4x4 inches wide. Leg was saved, since the neurovascular structures were not hit, though thigh circumference was much narrower post-op, as alot of devitalized muscle had to be removed." Bones explode when hit with that kind of force leaving a void... They become secondary shrapnel. I got all the answers homie, keep sending it my way. Like whack a mole here. Yes getting shot point blank with a m4 is going to fuck you up. But it’s better than being shot with a .308/7.62 point blank. Better than being shot by a shotgun point blank. Get it yet? The M4/AR15 is not as lethal. Next... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XC.Morrison Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 3 minutes ago, xtralettucetomatoe580 said: Bones explode when hit with that kind of force leaving a void... They become secondary shrapnel. I got all the answers homie, keep sending it my way. Like whack a mole here. Yes getting shot point blank with a m4 is going to fuck you up. But it’s better than being shot with a .308/7.62 point blank. Better than being shot by a shotgun point blank. Get it yet? The M4/AR15 is not as lethal. Next... Oh, here's next sir: From the orthopedic surgeon who operated on the victim: "Based on x-rays taken, IMHO the bullet did NOT hit the femur. These cases are fairly common here, since our cops use M16s and m193 ammo exclusively. Had the bullet hit the femur, the fracture pattern would be very different, would exhibit severe comminution usually for a length of up to 2 to 4 inches of the bone. Methinks the temporary cavitation was strong enough to break the femur by itself. We KNOW how a bone that is hit squarely by a high-velocity bullet looks like." "The fragments you see in the xrays are all metallic, as the whiteness is much greater than that of the bone. Bullet fragments could be seen ON the wound itself, as silvery specks. The xrays show fragments on one side only of the thigh, which makes me think that the bullet fragmented after @ 4 inches of penetration." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XC.Morrison Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 Not that it matters in terms of proving what I set out to do. Prove that the hole size indicated in the meme was plausible. I never ascribed any "conditions" to that. That was you, because it was the only way you could try to arm wrestle a win out of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtralettucetomatoe580 Posted June 14, 2018 Author Share Posted June 14, 2018 1 minute ago, XC.Morrison said: Not that it matters in terms of proving what I set out to do. Prove that the hole size indicated in the meme was plausible. I never ascribed any "conditions" to that. That was you, because it was the only way you could try to arm wrestle a win out of it. It’s not the norm to have an exit wound like that. Can you cherry pick cases? Well duh, but it makes you look ignorant. That’s the point ya dumb shit haha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zambroski Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 Oooof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 25 minutes ago, xtralettucetomatoe580 said: It’s not the norm to have an exit wound like that. Can you cherry pick cases? Well duh, but it makes you look ignorant. That’s the point ya dumb shit haha. Comparing a thigh wound to a torso shot? Jesus............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XC.Morrison Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 16 minutes ago, Snake said: Comparing a thigh wound to a torso shot? Jesus............. Who did that? All I’ve ever referenced was “person” in terms of target. Oops! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtralettucetomatoe580 Posted June 14, 2018 Author Share Posted June 14, 2018 1 minute ago, XC.Morrison said: Who did that? All I’ve ever referenced was “person” in terms of target. Oops! Shift them posts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f7ben Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 I would rather be shot with .223 than almost any other high power caliber. Its not even close. Of course the .223 can kill you dead 1 million ways but its the most survivable round out there as far as popular rifle calibers. 30-06 , .308 , .270 , 7mm , .300 etc etc etc......almost every rifle round I can think of is countless times more devastating. The 5.56 nato round was designed to remove people from actively participating on the battle field , it needed to be lightweight and it needed to be cheap. It does all those things well.......what it does not do is kill effectively when compared to other rounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Jimmy Snacks Posted June 15, 2018 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted June 15, 2018 29 minutes ago, f7ben said: I would rather be shot with .223 than almost any other high power caliber. Its not even close. Of course the .223 can kill you dead 1 million ways but its the most survivable round out there as far as popular rifle calibers. 30-06 , .308 , .270 , 7mm , .300 etc etc etc......almost every rifle round I can think of is countless times more devastating. The 5.56 nato round was designed to remove people from actively participating on the battle field , it needed to be lightweight and it needed to be cheap. It does all those things well.......what it does not do is kill effectively when compared to other rounds. Yeah that’s what I’ve always understood about the round...dead is dead whereas wounded soldiers occupy many other personnel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XC.Morrison Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 1 hour ago, xtralettucetomatoe580 said: Shift them posts! I don’t need to hoser. I set em up wide enough from the jump to drive a truck through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zambroski Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 The key in the 5.56 is fragmentation. Massive internal trauma from lots of little pieces ricocheting in all directions after penetration. Chance of survival without certain attention is slim unless one of those “love shards” happens to not hit any blood carrying tubes. The benefit it has over a 7.62 nato is that the 7.62 rarely fragments, so, while “knock down” may be more (assuming it’s tumbling), unless it hits a major organ, survivability is good. But the round’s impact will probably leave the bullet as it was, the way it entered....and many times travels right through soft tissue because of it’s design to stay intact. Most bleed out of the holes in the body. Get hit by a 5.56 and there’s no chance you’ll be considered dead (assuming you survived impact). Your frantic, painful screaming will alert those around you to your “aliveness”....temporary as it may be. I’ve got a buddy that has a 7.62 he saved after extraction. One leg (right through) one abdomen. The meaty fuck! 5.56 for the fucking win. I’d take a 9mm too. Not a big fan of the weapons for the 7.62. Bulky, in accurate, hard to control. Best for shit conditions though with their toy-like large moving parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XC.Morrison Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 1 hour ago, Zambroski said: The key in the 5.56 is fragmentation. Massive internal trauma from lots of little pieces ricocheting in all directions after penetration. Chance of survival without certain attention is slim unless one of those “love shards” happens to not hit any blood carrying tubes. The benefit it has over a 7.62 nato is that the 7.62 rarely fragments, so, while “knock down” may be more (assuming it’s tumbling), unless it hits a major organ, survivability is good. But the round’s impact will probably leave the bullet as it was, the way it entered....and many times travels right through soft tissue because of it’s design to stay intact. Most bleed out of the holes in the body. Get hit by a 5.56 and there’s no chance you’ll be considered dead (assuming you survived impact). Your frantic, painful screaming will alert those around you to your “aliveness”....temporary as it may be. I’ve got a buddy that has a 7.62 he saved after extraction. One leg (right through) one abdomen. The meaty fuck! 5.56 for the fucking win. I’d take a 9mm too. Not a big fan of the weapons for the 7.62. Bulky, in accurate, hard to control. Best for shit conditions though with their toy-like large moving parts. Good post Not trying to tag on and be all like hey look Zam supports my grievance with the lame meme that started this. Just found it well thought out, honest, and informative. Jives with a lot of stuff I’ve read on all the survivalist, shtf, and AR sites I’ve spent far too much time on the past couple of days. And for the record, I’d be screaming with just a B.B. hit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Zambroski said: The key in the 5.56 is fragmentation. Massive internal trauma from lots of little pieces ricocheting in all directions after penetration. Chance of survival without certain attention is slim unless one of those “love shards” happens to not hit any blood carrying tubes. The benefit it has over a 7.62 nato is that the 7.62 rarely fragments, so, while “knock down” may be more (assuming it’s tumbling), unless it hits a major organ, survivability is good. But the round’s impact will probably leave the bullet as it was, the way it entered....and many times travels right through soft tissue because of it’s design to stay intact. Most bleed out of the holes in the body. Get hit by a 5.56 and there’s no chance you’ll be considered dead (assuming you survived impact). Your frantic, painful screaming will alert those around you to your “aliveness”....temporary as it may be. I’ve got a buddy that has a 7.62 he saved after extraction. One leg (right through) one abdomen. The meaty fuck! 5.56 for the fucking win. I’d take a 9mm too. Not a big fan of the weapons for the 7.62. Bulky, in accurate, hard to control. Best for shit conditions though with their toy-like large moving parts. Seriously? If I was dropped in a mud jungle, and had a choice. AK all the way, bulletproof construction, no jams, easy to clear misfires, stopping power, and nice wood furniture. Edit: Your last sentence sums it up. Reliability is the win for 7.62. Edited June 15, 2018 by Whiskey Tango Foxtrot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XC.Morrison Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 6 hours ago, xtralettucetomatoe580 said: How are you an engineer? What the fuck hahahahahahahahha.... the bullet is tumbling. That doesn’t make one whole move at two speeds. Just bow out. This is all way above your head. If you need google to even start your formulation of ideas, you have no business acting like you are in the know. The first part is pretty basic. Picture a bullet moving from left to right in it’s normal flight path. Then picture it at at 90 degree angle so that a point on the tip and the bottom are at the same location on the X axis of a graph. A point on the rear had to move faster than a point on the tip for some period of time for that to be the case. On the second all I can say is that a good lawyer need not be an expert in every field to effectively litigate their case. That’s why they call experts to the stand. Or in my case post info from competent persons. By the way, I noticed you took issue with the use of ballistics gel as an effective way to estimate the resultant wound damage but never once took issue with the simple hole in a paper target used by the creator of the meme to discredit the protester. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zambroski Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 27 minutes ago, Whiskey Tango Foxtrot said: Seriously? If I was dropped in a mud jungle, and had a choice. AK all the way, bulletproof construction, no jams, easy to clear misfires, stopping power, and nice wood furniture. Edit: Your last sentence sums it up. Reliability is the win for 7.62. Well, like I said, there's can be a time and a place for everything. 45 minutes ago, XC.Morrison said: Good post Not trying to tag on and be all like hey look Zam supports my grievance with the lame meme that started this. Just found it well thought out, honest, and informative. Jives with a lot of stuff I’ve read on all the survivalist, shtf, and AR sites I’ve spent far too much time on the past couple of days. And for the record, I’d be screaming with just a B.B. hit. You'll find most of my posts are "honest and informative"......unless I'm just lying and full of shit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Skidooski Posted June 15, 2018 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted June 15, 2018 Three more pages here that started in the Meme thread. Holy fuck XC....that meme really put your panties in a knot. How does it feel to be so offended and angry over something so trivial? Its like you think i made the damn thing too. Boo hoo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member steve from amherst Posted June 15, 2018 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted June 15, 2018 10 hours ago, f7ben said: I would rather be shot with .223 than almost any other high power caliber. Its not even close. Of course the .223 can kill you dead 1 million ways but its the most survivable round out there as far as popular rifle calibers. 30-06 , .308 , .270 , 7mm , .300 etc etc etc......almost every rifle round I can think of is countless times more devastating. The 5.56 nato round was designed to remove people from actively participating on the battle field , it needed to be lightweight and it needed to be cheap. It does all those things well.......what it does not do is kill effectively when compared to other rounds. yep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 If I get time this weekend, I'll head to the pit and do a 5.56 vs a .308. Any requests on what we could use to prove a point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f7ben Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 17 minutes ago, Snake said: If I get time this weekend, I'll head to the pit and do a 5.56 vs a .308. Any requests on what we could use to prove a point? A 5 gallon pail of water would really show the difference in energy of the 2 rounds but that really isn't what's being debated Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 1 minute ago, f7ben said: A 5 gallon pail of water would really show the difference in energy of the 2 rounds but that really isn't what's being debated That's why I am asking... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f7ben Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 Just now, Snake said: That's why I am asking... Grab a couple big pork butts and let's see this massive 223 exit wound lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zambroski Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 20 minutes ago, Snake said: If I get time this weekend, I'll head to the pit and do a 5.56 vs a .308. Any requests on what we could use to prove a point? A dozen or so liberals. It may take you a few to warm up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Skidooski Posted June 15, 2018 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted June 15, 2018 Here's what XC.Moron got so offended and triggered over in the Meme thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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