EV Lithium Ion Battery Storage

[Highmark]

Looking at producing our 2nd electric vehicle that uses lithium ion batteries.   The first was easy.   The customer integrates the battery to the unit at the dealership so we don't have to store any.   This new product that cannot be done and the hoops we are having to go thru to store these are INSANE!

How in the fuck do insurance companies insure the ten's of thousands of million $ homes that a Tesla, electric Porsche or whatever sits in their garage.

Makes me think how much of the increase in insurance rates are to cover the EV or LI battery risk.

https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2024/03/13/mitigate-lithium-ion-battery-fire-risk-for-manageable-premiums/

https://www.evansdist.com/the-basics-of-lithium-ion-battery-storage-handling-and-transportation/#

 

[Skidooski]

I store mine submerged in water. Safest place to keep them

[Mainecat]

Many homes were burned to the ground from conventional auto manufacturing fuck ups. 
My wife’s old 2010 Escape got a do not park inside recall from Ford. It took them over 8 months to update.

So yeah ya got a huge risk with todays electronic overloaded vehicles.

[BOHICA]

Interesting when facts are used instead of emotions.

 

 

Kelly Blue Book reported on findings from a study that shows EV are actually less likely to cause or be involved in fires than gasoline-powered or hybrid vehicles.¹ Data from the National Transportation Safety Board showed that EVs were involved in approximately 25 fires for every 100,000 sold.  Comparatively, approximately 1,530 gasoline-powered vehicles and 3,475 hybrid vehicles were involved in fires for every 100,000 sold.

Reporting from other countries supports the assertion that EVs are less fire-prone than gas-powered vehicles.² Data from Norway, Sweden, and Australia is consistent with findings in the U.S., showing that the prevalence of EV fires remains relatively low.
 

https://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/environment-energy-coordination/climate-matters/EV-less-fire-risk#:~:text=Data from the National Transportation,fires for every 100%2C000 sold.

 

[Skidooski]

So we’ll see an increase in ICE vehicles exploding now that manu’s are throttling back on EV production and development?

[NaturallyAspirated]

8 minutes ago, Skidooski said:

So we’ll see an increase in ICE vehicles exploding now that manu’s are throttling back on EV production and development?

Did we see a decrease in ICE vehicles exploding or igniting? 

Neal

[Doug]

[Skidooski]

30 minutes ago, NaturallyAspirated said:

Did we see a decrease in ICE vehicles exploding or igniting? 

Neal

Grabsgaydicks is our resident Church of Electrons representative so he should be able to answer all your questions 

[BOHICA]

2 minutes ago, Skidooski said:

Grabsgaydicks is our resident Church of Electrons representative so he should be able to answer all your questions 

 

gas vehicles combust at the same rate as they always did.
 

Kelly Blue Book reported on findings from a study that shows EV are actually less likely to cause or be involved in fires than gasoline-powered or hybrid vehicles.¹ Data from the National Transportation Safety Board showed that EVs were involved in approximately 25 fires for every 100,000 sold.  Comparatively, approximately 1,530 gasoline-powered vehicles and 3,475 hybrid vehicles were involved in fires for every 100,000 sold.

Reporting from other countries supports the assertion that EVs are less fire-prone than gas-powered vehicles.² Data from Norway, Sweden, and Australia is consistent with findings in the U.S., showing that the prevalence of EV fires remains relatively low.
 

https://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/environment-energy-coordination/climate-matters/EV-less-fire-risk#:~:text=Data from the National Transportation,fires for every 100%2C000 sold.

[Doug]

1 hour ago, BOHICA said:

Interesting when facts are used instead of emotions.

 

 

Kelly Blue Book reported on findings from a study that shows EV are actually less likely to cause or be involved in fires than gasoline-powered or hybrid vehicles.¹ Data from the National Transportation Safety Board showed that EVs were involved in approximately 25 fires for every 100,000 sold.  Comparatively, approximately 1,530 gasoline-powered vehicles and 3,475 hybrid vehicles were involved in fires for every 100,000 sold.

Reporting from other countries supports the assertion that EVs are less fire-prone than gas-powered vehicles.² Data from Norway, Sweden, and Australia is consistent with findings in the U.S., showing that the prevalence of EV fires remains relatively low.
 

https://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/environment-energy-coordination/climate-matters/EV-less-fire-risk#:~:text=Data from the National Transportation,fires for every 100%2C000 sold.

 

 

55 minutes ago, BOHICA said:

 

 

gas vehicles combust at the same rate as they always did.
 

Kelly Blue Book reported on findings from a study that shows EV are actually less likely to cause or be involved in fires than gasoline-powered or hybrid vehicles.¹ Data from the National Transportation Safety Board showed that EVs were involved in approximately 25 fires for every 100,000 sold.  Comparatively, approximately 1,530 gasoline-powered vehicles and 3,475 hybrid vehicles were involved in fires for every 100,000 sold.

Reporting from other countries supports the assertion that EVs are less fire-prone than gas-powered vehicles.² Data from Norway, Sweden, and Australia is consistent with findings in the U.S., showing that the prevalence of EV fires remains relatively low.
 

https://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/environment-energy-coordination/climate-matters/EV-less-fire-risk#:~:text=Data from the National Transportation,fires for every 100%2C000 sold.

Is that like a EV backfire or miss with a double post of the same thing or do you need a recharge and running in limp mode again?

[BOHICA]

20 minutes ago, Doug said:

 

Is that like a EV backfire or miss with a double post of the same thing or do you need a recharge and running in limp mode again?

Nope.  It was a response to skidooski’s question and comment.  Its well studied and factual data is readily available that reveals fire rates per propulsion method.

[ActionfigureJoe]

2 hours ago, Highmark said:

Looking at producing our 2nd electric vehicle that uses lithium ion batteries.   The first was easy.   The customer integrates the battery to the unit at the dealership so we don't have to store any.   This new product that cannot be done and the hoops we are having to go thru to store these are INSANE!

How in the fuck do insurance companies insure the ten's of thousands of million $ homes that a Tesla, electric Porsche or whatever sits in their garage.

Makes me think how much of the increase in insurance rates are to cover the EV or LI battery risk.

https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2024/03/13/mitigate-lithium-ion-battery-fire-risk-for-manageable-premiums/

https://www.evansdist.com/the-basics-of-lithium-ion-battery-storage-handling-and-transportation/#

 

Swing and a miss. With the use of Lifepo4 batteries the chance of thermal runaway is eliminated because they don't produce large amounts of O2. BYD uses them almost exclusively and Tesla began incorporating them.  

[Skidooski]

Moar EV’s should equate to less fires. Now that the EV fad is fizzling ……   

[Highmark]

7 hours ago, ActionfigureJoe said:

Swing and a miss. With the use of Lifepo4 batteries the chance of thermal runaway is eliminated because they don't produce large amounts of O2. BYD uses them almost exclusively and Tesla began incorporating them.  

I'll put you in touch with my customer and you convince them of that.  

[Highmark]

22 hours ago, BOHICA said:

 

 

gas vehicles combust at the same rate as they always did.
 

Kelly Blue Book reported on findings from a study that shows EV are actually less likely to cause or be involved in fires than gasoline-powered or hybrid vehicles.¹ Data from the National Transportation Safety Board showed that EVs were involved in approximately 25 fires for every 100,000 sold.  Comparatively, approximately 1,530 gasoline-powered vehicles and 3,475 hybrid vehicles were involved in fires for every 100,000 sold.

Reporting from other countries supports the assertion that EVs are less fire-prone than gas-powered vehicles.² Data from Norway, Sweden, and Australia is consistent with findings in the U.S., showing that the prevalence of EV fires remains relatively low.
 

https://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/environment-energy-coordination/climate-matters/EV-less-fire-risk#:~:text=Data from the National Transportation,fires for every 100%2C000 sold.

Can't change the fact that storage of the LI batteries is vastly different and will require special facilities and specialized insurance in order to put them in my facility.  Its doubtful insurance companies just do this for the heck of it.  Been producing ICE vehicles for a long time and other than simple fire proof gas cans for our test fuel they require absolutely NOTHING. 

I've had a number of meetings with the customer about this as they already produce product with the same exact battery and what needs to be done is extensive and expensive.   

Edited May 1 by Highmark

[BOHICA]

13 minutes ago, Highmark said:

Can't change the fact that storage of the LI batteries is vastly different and will require special facilities and specialized insurance in order to put them in my facility.  Its doubtful insurance companies just do this for the heck of it.

I've had a number of meetings with the customer about this as they already produce product with the same exact battery and what needs to be done is extensive and expensive.   

Assuming storage of bulk batteries?  Would insurance companies not charge for bulk storage of fuels and fossil fuel

energy which requires special facilities?  I would think batteries wouldnt be much different.

Edited May 1 by BOHICA

[Highmark]

2 minutes ago, BOHICA said:

Assuming storage of bulk batteries?  Would insurance companies not charge for bulk storage of fuels and fossil fuel

energy which requires special facilities?  I would think batteries wouldnt be much different.

Bulk storage and storage of the completed units in inventory waiting for shipment.  For optimal storage batteries need to be kept at 40% charge and at 58 deg F.

Fuel storage is easy as we use very little for end of line testing.   Maybe couple cups per unit.

Extra fuel (energy) can be stored outside the facility but as I've mention a simple fireproof gas can is sufficient for OSHA and the insurance companies and would hold enough for months of production.

You can't store that 40% energy for batteries outside the facility.  Special containers and or special fire systems must be  put in place.

You can love EV or LI all you want Bo it doesn't change the facts behind what we face to produce them over ICE. 

[BOHICA]

6 minutes ago, Highmark said:

Bulk storage and storage of the completed units in inventory waiting for shipment.  For optimal storage batteries need to be kept at 40% charge and at 58 deg F.

Fuel storage is easy as we use very little for end of line testing.   Maybe couple cups per unit.

Extra fuel (energy) can be stored outside the facility but as I've mention a simple fireproof gas can is sufficient for OSHA and the insurance companies and would hold enough for months of production.

You can't store that 40% energy for batteries outside the facility.  Special containers and or special fire systems must be  put in place.

You can love EV or LI all you want Bo it doesn't change the facts behind what we face to produce them over ICE. 

So if you have a couple packs of AA batteries you have to have special storage and fire suppression systems?

Edited May 1 by BOHICA

[ActionfigureJoe]

14 hours ago, Highmark said:

I'll put you in touch with my customer and you convince them of that.  

Unfortunately hazardous material regulations continue to lump LI with Lifepo4 batteries. They are two completely different animals. 

[ActionfigureJoe]

27 minutes ago, BOHICA said:

So if you have a couple packs of AA batteries you have to have special storage and fire suppression systems?

Comparing alkaline vs LI, hazardous material regulations are different. Both for shipping and storage. 

[BOHICA]

1 hour ago, ActionfigureJoe said:

Comparing alkaline vs LI, hazardous material regulations are different. Both for shipping and storage. 

I should have been more clear.  LI AA’s like these….  Special storage, insurance and fire suppression needed to store a pack of these at the office?

https://www.amazon.com/Energizer-Ultimate-Lithium-Size-Batteries/dp/B004EFT2BU/ref=asc_df_B004EFT2BU/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=693552530313&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=10582224539288523839&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9033313&hvtargid=pla-424164455251&psc=1&mcid=d0bb2a20db2e382ab7e9dbff75c41c01&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjw0MexBhD3ARIsAEI3WHLoiqU6D4tiUVklCXwew9KNKd0WJ_6N9Tr2RojHFsTT_Jfz8wiLxfwaAry9EALw_wcB

[Highmark]

1 hour ago, BOHICA said:

So if you have a couple packs of AA batteries you have to have special storage and fire suppression systems?

Oh for fucks sake.  

Edited May 1 by Highmark

[Highmark]

1 hour ago, ActionfigureJoe said:

Unfortunately hazardous material regulations continue to lump LI with Lifepo4 batteries. They are two completely different animals. 

Sure but I build to the specifications of what the customer demands.   In pricing that product I have to consider the facility and insurance costs and the fact is today those are significant.  

[BOHICA]

8 minutes ago, Highmark said:

Oh for fucks sake.  

It would be like having a can of gas sitting around….  Bulk storage would be a different story on both.  Bulk storage of batteries or fuels both have special requirements and cost.  

[ActionfigureJoe]

26 minutes ago, Highmark said:

Sure but I build to the specifications of what the customer demands.   In pricing that product I have to consider the facility and insurance costs and the fact is today those are significant.  

I get it. I wouldn’t want the headaches of your job.