The Myth of NATO Provocations

[Jimmy Snacks]

4 minutes ago, Highmark said:

Jesus dude....the entire thread is basically Anler and I in agreement with one another on this entire topic except whether or not diplomacy would have worked.   You feeling alright?  

I’m just fine.

Edited April 15, 2022 by Jimmy Snacks

[spin_dry]

8 minutes ago, Jimmy Snacks said:

Yeah but he posts a lot of laughing emojis.

He’s working so hard to make NATO look bad because trump said it was. He throws out a Soviet era program called operation Gladio to make himself look smart. Instead it makes him look dumb as a manhole cover. Then he pretends it never happened. It’s a useless conversation. 

[Anler]

2 minutes ago, spin_dry said:

He’s working so hard to make NATO look bad because trump said it was. He throws out a Soviet era program called operation Gladio to make himself look smart. Instead it makes him look dumb as a manhole cover. Then he pretends it never happened. It’s a useless conversation. 

the entire debate can be summed up by you being a pro war nazi sympathizer and Highmark and I being against war. So yeah, there is no useful conversation with Nazis. 

[spin_dry]

3 minutes ago, Anler said:

the entire debate can be summed up by you being a pro war nazi sympathizer and Highmark and I being against war. So yeah, there is no useful conversation with Nazis. 

You should be happy that there’s war. The Nazis will all perish. 

[akvanden]

35 minutes ago, Highmark said:

Simply stating when a group comes together specifically against one there is no way that one can't see it as aggressive.   Not really that tough of concept to comprehend. 

70 years of NATO history begs to differ. Again, they have no choice given Russian history.

 

How about this: get Russia to join NATO. Think they’d be able to abide by its rules and stay within its own borders? Think they’d be able to resist gobbling up all the tasty former Soviet Union block countries?

 

Edited April 15, 2022 by akvanden

[Anler]

2 minutes ago, spin_dry said:

You should be happy that there’s war. The Nazis will all perish. 

Not according to you, Heinrich

[Anler]

2 minutes ago, akvanden said:

70 years of NATO history begs to differ. Again, they have no choice given Russian history.

 

How about this: get Russia to join NATO. Think they’d be able to abide by its rules and stay within its own borders? Think they’d be able to resist gobbling up all the tasty former Soviet Union block countries?

 

I wonder is spin will call our your useless conversation attempt here... 

 

[spin_dry]

1 minute ago, akvanden said:

70 years of NATO history begs to differ. Again, they have no choice given Russian history.

 

How about this: get Russia to join NATO. Think they’d be able to abide by its rules and stay within its own borders? Think they’d be able to resist gobbling up all the tasty former Soviet Union block countries?

 

You do bring up an interesting point. What NATO nation has expanded its borders through aggression? The answer is none. On the other hand, Russia has gobbled up a part of Georgia, all of Crimea and Chechnya….now eastern and the southern chunk of Ukraine. Hmmmm…..

[akvanden]

2 minutes ago, Anler said:

I wonder is spin will call our your useless conversation attempt here... 

 

He asked Bill or they actually submitted an application to join, like every other serious country?

[spin_dry]

1 minute ago, akvanden said:

He asked Bill or they actually submitted an application to join, like every other serious country?

NATO probably wouldn’t agree to his single request. The continuation of invading his neighbors.  

[Highmark]

32 minutes ago, akvanden said:

70 years of NATO history begs to differ. Again, they have no choice given Russian history.

 

How about this: get Russia to join NATO. Think they’d be able to abide by its rules and stay within its own borders? Think they’d be able to resist gobbling up all the tasty former Soviet Union block countries?

 

Putin asked to join and it actually was a valid question.   Who's attacked more countries since the fall of the Soviet Union Russia or the US?  Most were justified but damn.

1990–1999[edit]

1990: Liberia: On August 6, 1990, President Bush reported that a reinforced rifle company had been sent to provide additional security to the U.S. Embassy in Monrovia, and that helicopter teams had evacuated U.S. citizens from Liberia.^[RL30172]

1990: Saudi Arabia: On August 9, 1990, President Bush reported that he launched Operation Desert Shield by ordering the forward deployment of substantial elements of the U.S. armed forces into the Persian Gulf region to help defend Saudi Arabia after the August 2 invasion of Kuwait by Iraq. On November 16, 1990, he reported the continued buildup of the forces to ensure an adequate offensive military option.^[RL30172]American hostages being held in Iran.^[RL30172]

1991: Iraq: Operation Desert Storm, The Allied air to land offensive from 17 January 1991 to 11 April 1991^[9]

1991: Iraq: Operation Desert Sabre, The Allied ground offensive from 24-27 Feb 1991^[9]

1991–1996: Iraq: Operation Provide Comfort, Delivery of humanitarian relief and military protection for Kurds fleeing their homes in northern Iraq during the 1991 uprising, by a small Allied ground force based in Turkey which began in April 1991.

1991: Iraq: On May 17, 1991, President Bush stated that the Iraqi repression of the Kurdish people had necessitated a limited introduction of U.S. forces into northern Iraq for emergency relief purposes.^[RL30172]

1991: Zaire: On September 25–27, 1991, after widespread looting and rioting broke out in Kinshasa, Air Force C-141s transported 100 Belgian troops and equipment into Kinshasa. American planes also carried 300 French troops into the Central African Republic and hauled evacuated American citizens.^[RL30172]

1992: Sierra Leone: Operation Silver Anvil, Following the April 29 coup that overthrew President Joseph Saidu Momoh, a United States European Command (USEUCOM) Joint Special Operations Task Force evacuated 438 people (including 42 Third Country nationals) on May 3. Two Air Mobility Command (AMC) C-141s flew 136 people from Freetown, Sierra Leone, to the Rhein-Main Air Base in Germany and nine C-130 sorties carried another 302 people to Dakar, Senegal.^[RL30172]

1992–1996: Bosnia and Herzegovina: Operation Provide Promise was a humanitarian relief operation in Bosnia and Herzegovina during the Yugoslav Wars, from July 2, 1992, to January 9, 1996, which made it the longest running humanitarian airlift in history.^[10]

1992: Kuwait: On August 3, 1992, the United States began a series of military exercises in Kuwait, following Iraqi refusal to recognize a new border drawn up by the United Nations and refusal to cooperate with UN inspection teams.^[RL30172]

1992–2003: Iraq: Iraqi no-fly zones, The U.S., United Kingdom, and its Gulf War allies declared and enforced "no-fly zones" over the majority of sovereign Iraqi airspace, prohibiting Iraqi flights in zones in southern Iraq and northern Iraq, conducting aerial reconnaissance, and several specific attacks on Iraqi air-defense systems as part of the UN mandate. Often, Iraqi forces continued throughout a decade by firing on U.S. and British aircraft patrolling no-fly zones.(See also Operation Northern Watch, Operation Southern Watch) ^[RL30172]

1993–1995: Bosnia: Operation Deny Flight, On April 12, 1993, in response to a United Nations Security Council passage of Resolution 816, U.S. and NATO enforced the no-fly zone over the Bosnian airspace, prohibited all unauthorized flights and allowed to "take all necessary measures to ensure compliance with [the no-fly zone restrictions]."

1993: Somalia: Battle of Mogadishu, or the First Battle of Mogadishu, the outcome of Operation Gothic Serpent. October 3–4, 1993, Task Force Ranger, made up largely of the 75th Ranger Regiment and Delta Force entered hostile urban area Mogadishu to seize two high ranking Somali National Army leaders. Two American UH-60 Black Hawks are shot down, 18 Americans are killed in action, with another 73 wounded, and 1 captured. The events of the battle were gathered in the book Black Hawk Down, which was later adapted to a movie of the same name.

1993: Macedonia: On July 9, 1993, President Clinton reported the deployment of 350 U.S. soldiers to the Republic of Macedonia to participate in the UN Protection Force to help maintain stability in the area of former Yugoslavia.^[RL30172]

1994: Bosnia: Banja Luka incident, NATO become involved in the first combat situation when NATO U.S. Air Force F-16 jets shot down four of the six Bosnian Serb J-21 Jastreb single-seat light attack jets for violating UN-mandated no-fly zone.

1994–1995: Haiti: Operation Uphold Democracy, U.S. ships had begun embargo against Haiti. Up to 20,000 U.S. military troops were later deployed to Haiti to restore democratically elected Haiti President Jean-Bertrand Aristide from a military regime which came into power in 1991 after a major coup.^[RL30172]

1994: Macedonia: On April 19, 1994, President Clinton reported that the U.S. contingent in Macedonia had been increased by a reinforced company of 200 personnel.^[RL30172]

1994: Kuwait: Operation Vigilant Warrior began in October 1994 when Iraqi Republican Guard Divisions began repositioning within Iraq south near the Kuwaiti border. U.S. Forces countered with a movement of forces to the Gulf - the largest since Operation Desert Shield. The operation as officially terminated on December 22, 1994. Also see^[11]

1995: Bosnia: Operation Deliberate Force, On August 30, 1995, U.S. and NATO aircraft began a major bombing campaign of Bosnian Serb Army in response to a Bosnian Serb mortar attack on a Sarajevo market that killed 37 people on August 28, 1995. This operation lasted until September 20, 1995. The air campaign along with a combined allied ground force of Muslim and Croatian Army against Serb positions led to a Dayton Agreement in December 1995 with the signing of warring factions of the war. As part of Operation Joint Endeavor, U.S. and NATO dispatched the Implementation Force (IFOR) peacekeepers to Bosnia to uphold the Dayton agreement.^[RL30172]

1996: Central African Republic, Operation Quick Response: On May 23, 1996, President Clinton reported the deployment of U.S. military personnel to Bangui, Central African Republic, to conduct the evacuation from that country of "private U.S. citizens and certain U.S. government employees", and to provide "enhanced security for the American Embassy in Bangui."^[RL30172] United States Marine Corps elements of Joint Task Force Assured Response, responding in nearby Liberia, provided security to the embassy and evacuated 448 people, including between 190 and 208 Americans. The last Marines left Bangui on June 22.

1996: Kuwait: Operation Desert Strike, American Air Strikes in the north to protect the Kurdish population against the Iraqi Army attacks.

1996: Bosnia: Operation Joint Guard, On December 21, 1996, U.S. and NATO established the SFOR peacekeepers to replace the IFOR in enforcing the peace under the Dayton agreement.

1997: Albania: Operation Silver Wake, On March 13, 1997, U.S. military forces were used to evacuate certain U.S. government employees and private U.S. citizens from Tirana, Albania.^[RL30172]

1997: Congo and Gabon: On March 27, 1997, President Clinton reported on March 25, 1997, a standby evacuation force of U.S. military personnel had been deployed to Congo and Gabon to provide enhanced security and to be available for any necessary evacuation operation.^[RL30172]

1997: Sierra Leone: On May 29 and 30, 1997, U.S. military personnel were deployed to Freetown, Sierra Leone, to prepare for and undertake the evacuation of certain U.S. government employees and private U.S. citizens.^[RL30172]

1997: Cambodia: On July 11, 1997, In an effort to ensure the security of American citizens in Cambodia during a period of domestic conflict there, a Task Force of about 550 U.S. military personnel were deployed at Utapao Air Base in Thailand for possible evacuations. ^[RL30172]

1998: Iraq: Operation Desert Fox, U.S. and British forces conduct a major four-day bombing campaign from December 16–19, 1998 on Iraqi targets.^[RL30172]

1998–1999: Kenya and Tanzania: U.S. military personnel were deployed to Nairobi, Kenya, to coordinate the medical and disaster assistance related to the bombing of the U.S. Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania.^[RL30172]

1998: Afghanistan and Sudan: Operation Infinite Reach. On August 20, President Clinton ordered a cruise missile attack against two suspected terrorist training camps in Afghanistan and a suspected chemical factory in Sudan.^[RL30172]

1998: Liberia: On September 27, 1998, America deployed a stand-by response and evacuation force of 30 U.S. military personnel to increase the security force at the U.S. Embassy in Monrovia. [1] ^[RL30172]

1999–2001: East Timor: Limited number of U.S. military forces deployed with the United Nations-mandated International Force for East Timor restore peace to East Timor.^[RL30172]

1999: Serbia: Operation Allied Force: U.S. and NATO aircraft began a major bombing of Serbia and Serb positions in Kosovo on March 24, 1999, during the Kosovo War due to the refusal by Serbian President Slobodan Milošević to end repression against ethnic Albanians in Kosovo. This operation ended on June 10, 1999, when Milošević agreed to pull his troops out of Kosovo. In response to the situation in Kosovo, NATO dispatched the KFOR peacekeepers to secure the peace under UNSC Resolution 1244.^[RL30172]

2000–2009[edit]

• 2000: Sierra Leone: On May 12, 2000, a U.S. Navy patrol craft deployed to Sierra Leone to support evacuation operations from that country if needed.^[RL30172]
• 2000: Nigeria: Special Forces troops are sent to Nigeria to lead a training mission in the country.^[12]
• 2000: Yemen: On October 12, 2000, after USS Cole attack in the port of Aden, Yemen, military personnel were deployed to Aden.^[RL30172]
• 2000: East Timor: On February 25, 2000, a small number of U.S. military personnel were deployed to support the United Nations Transitional Administration in East Timor (UNTAET). ^[RL30172]
• 2001: On April 1, 2001, a mid-air collision between a United States Navy EP-3E ARIES II signals surveillance aircraft and a People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) J-8II interceptor fighter jet resulted in an international dispute between the United States and the People's Republic of China called the Hainan Island incident.
• 2001–2021: War in Afghanistan: The War on Terror begins with Operation Enduring Freedom. On October 7, 2001, U.S. Armed Forces invade Afghanistan in response to the 9/11 attacks and "begin combat action in Afghanistan against Al Qaeda terrorists and their Taliban supporters."^[RL30172]
• 2002: Yemen: On November 3, 2002, an American MQ-1 Predator fired a Hellfire missile at a car in Yemen killing Qaed Salim Sinan al-Harethi, an al-Qaeda leader thought to be responsible for USS Cole bombing.^[RL30172]
• 2002: Philippines: OEF-Philippines, As of January, U.S. "combat-equipped and combat support forces" have been deployed to the Philippines to train with, assist and advise the Philippine Armed Forces in enhancing their "counterterrorist capabilities."^[RL30172]
• 2002: Côte d'Ivoire: On September 25, 2002, in response to a rebellion in Côte d'Ivoire, U.S. military personnel went into Côte d'Ivoire to assist in the evacuation of American citizens from Bouaké.^{[13][RL30172]}
• 2003–2011: War in Iraq: Operation Iraqi Freedom, March 20, 2003, The United States leads a coalition that includes the United Kingdom, Australia and Poland to invade Iraq with the stated goal being "to disarm Iraq in pursuit of peace, stability, and security both in the Gulf region and in the United States."^[RL30172]
• 2003: Liberia: Second Liberian Civil War, On June 9, 2003, President Bush reported that on June 8 he had sent about 35 U.S. Marines into Monrovia, Liberia, to help secure the U.S. Embassy in Nouakchott, Mauritania, and to aid in any necessary evacuation from either Liberia or Mauritania.^[RL30172]
• 2003: Georgia and Djibouti: "US combat equipped and support forces" had been deployed to Georgia and Djibouti to help in enhancing their "counterterrorist capabilities."^[14]

• 2004: Haiti: 2004 Haitian coup d'état occurs, The U.S. first sent 55 combat equipped military personnel to augment the U.S. Embassy security forces there and to protect American citizens and property in light. Later 200 additional U.S. combat-equipped, military personnel were sent to prepare the way for a UN Multinational Interim Force, MINUSTAH.^[RL30172]
• 2004: War on Terror: U.S. anti-terror related activities were underway in Georgia, Djibouti, Kenya, Ethiopia, Yemen, and Eritrea.^[15]

• 2004–present: The U.S. deploys drone strikes to aid in the War in North-West Pakistan.
• 2005–2006: Pakistan: President Bush deploys troops from U.S. Army air cavalry brigades to provide humanitarian relief to far remote villages in the Kashmir mountain ranges of Pakistan stricken by a massive earthquake.
• 2005–2008: Operation WILLING SPIRIT, Colombia - the rescue of American hostages held hostage by the FARC.
• 2006: Lebanon: part of the 24th Marine Expeditionary Unit^[16] begins evacuation of U.S. citizens willing to leave the country in the face of a likely ground invasion by Israel and continued fighting between Hezbollah and the Israeli military.^[16][17]

• 2007 - The Mogadishu Encounter, on November 4, 2007, Somali Pirates boarded and attacked a North Korean merchant vessel. Passing U.S. Navy Ships and a helicopter that were patrolling at the time responded to the attack. Once the ship was freed from the pirates, the American forces were given permission to board and assist the wounded crew and handle surviving pirates.^{[citation needed]}
• 2007: Somalia: Battle of Ras Kamboni, On January 8, 2007, while the conflict between the Islamic Courts Union and the Transitional Federal Government continues, an AC-130 gunship conducts an aerial strike on a suspected al-Qaeda operative, along with other Islamist fighters, on Badmadow Island near Ras Kamboni in southern Somalia.^[18]

2010–2019[edit]

• 2010–present: al-Qaeda insurgency in Yemen: The U.S. has been launching a series of drone strikes on suspected al-Qaeda, al-Shabaab, and ISIS positions in Yemen.
• 2010–2011: Operation New Dawn, On February 17, 2010, U.S. Secretary of Defense Robert Gates announced that as of September 1, 2010, the name "Operation Iraqi Freedom" would be replaced by "Operation New Dawn". This coincides with the reduction of American troops to 50,000.
• 2011: 2011 military intervention in Libya: Operation Odyssey Dawn, United States and coalition enforcing U.N. Security Council Resolution 1973 with bombings of Libyan forces.
• 2011: Osama Bin Laden is killed by U.S. military forces in Abbottabad, Pakistan as part of Operation Neptune Spear.
• 2011: Drone strikes on al-Shabaab militants begin in Somalia.^[19] This marks the 6th nation in which such strikes have been carried out,^[20] including Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Yemen^[21] and Libya.
• 2011–present: Uganda: U.S. Combat troops sent in as advisers to Uganda.^[22]
• 2012: Jordan: 150 U.S. troops deployed to Jordan to help it contain the Syrian Civil War within Syria's borders.^[23]
• 2012: Turkey: 400 troops and two batteries of Patriot missiles sent to Turkey to prevent any missile strikes from Syria.^[24]
• 2012: Chad: 50 U.S. troops have deployed to the African country of Chad to help evacuate U.S. citizens and embassy personnel from the neighboring Central African Republic's capital of Bangui in the face of rebel advances toward the city.
• 2013: Mali: U.S. forces assisted the French in Operation Serval with air refueling and transport aircraft.
• 2013: Somalia: U.S. Air Force planes supported the French in the Bulo Marer hostage rescue attempt. However, they did not use any weapons.^[25]
• 2013: 2013 Korean crisis
• 2013: Navy SEALs conducted a raid in Somalia and possibly killed a senior Al-Shabaab official, simultaneously another raid took place in Tripoli, Libya, where Special Operations Forces captured Abu Anas al Libi (also known as Anas al-Libi)^[26]
• 2014–present: Uganda: V-22 Ospreys, MC-130s, KC-135s and additional U.S. soldiers are sent to Uganda to continue to help African forces search for Joseph Kony.^[27]
• 2014–present: American intervention in Iraq: Hundreds of U.S. troops deployed to protect American assets in Iraq and to advise Iraqi and Kurdish fighters.^[28] In August the U.S. Air Force conducted a humanitarian air drop and the U.S. Navy began a series of airstrikes against Islamic State-aligned forces throughout northern Iraq.^[29][30]
• 2014: 2014 American rescue mission in Syria: The U.S. attempted to rescue James Foley and other hostages being held by ISIL. Air strikes were conducted on the ISIL military base known as "Osama bin Laden camp". Meanwhile, the bombings, Delta teams parachuted near an ISIL high-valued prison. The main roads were blocked to keep any target from escaping. When no hostage was found, the American troops began house to house searches. By this time, ISIL militants began arriving to the area. Heavy fighting occurred until the Americans decided to abandon the mission due to the hostages being nowhere in the area. Although the mission failed, at least 5 ISIL militants were killed, however 1 American troop was wounded. According to the reports, Jordan had a role in the operation and that one Jordanian soldier had been wounded as well. This was unconfirmed.
• 2014–present: American-led intervention in Syria: American aircraft bomb Islamic State positions in Syria. Airstrikes on al-Qaeda, al-Nusra Front and Khorasan positions are also being conducted.
• 2014–present: Intervention against the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant: Syrian locals forces and American-led coalition forces launch a series of aerial attacks on ISIL and al-Nusra Front positions in Iraq and Syria.
• 2014: 2014 Yemen hostage rescue operations against al-Qaeda: On November 25, U.S. Navy SEALs and Yemeni Special Forces launched an operations in Yemen in attempt to rescue eight hostages that were being held by al-Qaeda. Although the operation was successful, no American hostages were secured. In the first attempt, six Yemenis, one Saudi Arabian, and one Ethiopian were rescued. On December 4, 2014, al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP) threatened to execute the Somers if the U.S. failed to the unspecified commands. AQAP also stated that they would be executed if the U.S. attempted another rescue operation. On December 6, a second operation was launched. 40 U.S. SEALs and 30 Yemeni troops were deployed to the compound. A 10-minute fire fight occurred before the American troops could enter where the remaining hostages (Somers and Korkie) were being held. They were alive, but fatally wounded. Surgery was done in mid air when flying away from the site. Korkie died while in flight, and Somers died once landed on USS Makin Island. No American troop was killed/injured, however a Yemenis soldier was wounded.
• 2015: April 30, 2015 U.S. sends ships to the Strait of Hormuz to shield vessels after Iranian seizure of a commercial vessel, MV Maersk Tigris. Iran fired shots over the bow, and seized the ship registered in the Marshall Islands, as part of a decade-long legal dispute between Iran and Maersk.^[31]
• 2015–present: In early October 2015, the U.S. military deployed 300 troops to Cameroon, with the approval of the Cameroonian government; their primary mission was to provide intelligence support to local forces as well as conducting reconnaissance flights.^[32]
• 2017: 2017 Shayrat missile strike: Tomahawk missiles launched from U.S. naval vessels in the Mediterranean hit a Syrian airbase in Homs Governorate in response to a chemical weapons attack against civilians south-west of Idlib. Seven were killed and nine wounded.^[33]
• 2018: 2018 bombing of Damascus and Homs was launched in response to the alleged Douma chemical attack against civilians in April 2018.^[34]
• 2019: Operation Sentinel: U.S. Central Command was developing a multinational maritime effort to increase surveillance of and security in key waterways in the Middle East to ensure freedom of navigation.^[35]

2020–present[edit]

• 2020: Response to attack on the U.S. embassy in Baghdad. The U.S. embassy in Baghdad came under siege on 31 December 2019 following U.S. retaliation for an attack by the pro-Iranian Kataeb Hezbollah in which four service members were wounded and one civilian contractor was killed. In response, Marines and aircraft were immediately dispatched from Kuwait for defense of the embassy and overwatch. On 2 January 2020, the U.S. launched an airstrike on a convoy, killing Iranian Quds Force Major-General Qasem Soleimani and Iraqi militia leader Abu Mahdi al-Muhandis.^[36] An additional 4,000 U.S. troops were mobilized to the region, including some 750 from the 82nd Airborne Division.^[37] In an annual report released by the Pentagon on May 6, 2020, it cited that approximately 132 civilians have been killed in 2019 as part of US military operations in Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia and Syria. The Department of Defense (DoD) added that no civilian casualties were reported under the US military operations in Libya and Yemen civil wars respectively.^[38]
• 2021: February 2021 United States airstrike in Syria: On February 25, 2021, the United States military carried out an airstrike on a site believed to have been occupied by Iranian-backed Iraqi militias operating from across the border in eastern Syria in response to recent attacks against US and coalition forces in Iraq.^[39]
• 2021: June 27, 2021, the U.S. military conducted airstrikes on Iranian-backed militias on both sides of the Iraq–Syria border in response to drone attacks on U.S. forces and facilities in the region.^[40][41][42]
• 2021: American military intervention in Somalia (2007–present): July 20, 2021, U.S. military airstrikes were conducted on al-Shabab militants in Somalia, the first of its kind since US troops withdrew and President Joe Biden took office in January 2021.^[43][44] On July 22, 2021, further airstrikes were conducted by the U.S. Air Force against al-Shabab militants.^[45]
• 2021: 2021 evacuation from Afghanistan: as part of an ongoing, multi-national effort by NATO partner countries to extract citizens and Afghan partners from the country following the 2021 fall of Kabul to the Taliban. The U.S. deployed 6,000 troops to seize control of Hamid Karzai International Airport to serve as a base of operations for the evacuation effort.^[46] The DOD confirmed on August 16 that General Kenneth F. McKenzie Jr., Commander, United States Central Command, had met Taliban leaders in Qatar to secure an agreement. The Taliban reportedly agreed to allow American evacuation flights at Kabul Airport to proceed without hindrance.^[47] International airlifts of evacuees had resumed by August 17 following a temporary halt to clear the runway of civilians as the DOD confirmed the airport was open for all military flights and limited commercial flights.^[48] Pentagon officials added that evacuation efforts were expected to speed up and were scheduled to continue until August 31.^[49] On the evening of August 22, Lloyd Austin, United States Secretary of Defense, ordered the activation of the American Civil Reserve Air Fleet to aid in the evacuations, only the third time in history that the fleet had been activated.^[50] On August 26, 2021, two suicide attacks occurred outside the gates of the Kabul airport, killing at least 170 people including 13 U.S. military personnel (11 Marines, one soldier, and one Navy corpsman),^[51] along with over 150 wounded.^[52] On August 27, 2021, U.S. military forces conducted a drone strike in Nangarhar Province, Afghanistan on a presumed "planner" for the ISIS-K militant organization in response to the Kabul airport attack that occurred on August 26, 2021.^[53] On September 6, 2021, the United States evacuated four American citizens (specifically, an Amarillo, Texas woman and her three children) from Afghanistan via an overland route, marking the first overland evacuation facilitated by the US Department of State since the military withdrawal. The Taliban was aware of the evacuation and did not make any effort to stop it.^[54][55] On September 17, 2021, the U.S. CENTCOM commander, General Frank MacKenzie, announced that an investigation by the U.S. military of the aforementioned drone strike found that it killed 10 civilians (including 7 children and a U.S. aid worker), and that the vehicle targeted was likely not a threat associated with ISIS-K.^[56][57][58] In December 2021, in response to the errant August strike, the Pentagon stated that no U.S. military personnel involved would be disciplined.^[59][60] As of November 2021, the U.S. State Department believes as many as 14,000 U.S. legal permanent residents remain in Afghanistan.^[61]
• 2021: On October 22, 2021, a U.S. airstrike in northwestern Syria killed senior al-Qaeda leader Abdul Hamid al-Matar as part of ongoing anti-terrorism operations in the region.^[62][63]

Battles with Native Americans

Edited April 15, 2022 by Highmark

[Anler]

Shut it down OT

[akvanden]

39 minutes ago, Highmark said:

Putin asked to join and it actually was a valid question.   Who's attacked more countries since the fall of the Soviet Union Russia or the US?  Most were justified but damn.

And why didn't the formally apply? Because it's all talk. They need NATO in an attempt to defend what they do. Putin needs NATO to stay in power.

Not one of those examples shows NATO attacking Russia, the US annexing land, displacing 4 million people, etc.

Edited April 15, 2022 by akvanden

[Anler]

1 minute ago, akvanden said:

And why didn't the formally apply? Because it's all talk. They need NATO in an attempt to defend what they do. 

Not one of those examples shows NATO attacking Russia, the US annexing land, displacing 4 million people, etc.

NATO countries have killed about 11 million people globally in the last 20 years with occupations and sanctions. Not under the banner of NATO but NATO members. Probably a little more than Putin but he is just one country

 

[Highmark]

14 minutes ago, akvanden said:

And why didn't the formally apply? Because it's all talk. They need NATO in an attempt to defend what they do. 

Not one of those examples shows NATO attacking Russia, the US annexing land, displacing 4 million people, etc.

As I stated before what Russia doing is vile and evil and should be held to account.  Let me repeat that, what Russia is doing is vile and evil and should be held to account.   The Russian's should have to pay the consequences for this action and pay to re-build Ukraine even if that's not the best path historically.   I just don't want our young men and women doing the fighting for them or Europe AND considering our own financial situation I think our financial and military support should be limited.

That being said the mere existence of NATO is a threat to Russia no matter the actions it has or has not taken against it.   That is part of the point of the organization to act as a deterrent.  You cannot be a deterrent militarily without being a threat.  Its a double edged sword.  There is plenty of Russian's that still live in the thoughts of the cold war when NATO was the enemy.  Hard to change that.  It appears to me Putin isn't seeing much resistance from his own people. 

I have 2 sons and 5 nephews that are 18-25 yo so I have some skin in the game so to speak as to wanting to stay the fuck out of it.

 

Edited April 15, 2022 by Highmark

[ViperGTS/Z1]

2 hours ago, Anler said:

Here's the problem Jim. I will concede that Putin is a giant asshole and his Oligarchs are nothing more than mobsters. Where was NATO when they allowed him to grow to be the worlds richest man creating dependency of his oil and gas to Europe and the world? And Russia's agricultural exports are also widely used globally. This "all of the sudden" attempt to stop him is having major ramifications everywhere and will take years if not decades to balance out. He was all fine and dandy when they were making money off of him knowing he was this monster but now that he is being the guy they always knew he was we have to fuck up everything to stop him.

I would apply the same logic to China. The world put themselves in a position of dependency on them knowing what China was doing and now it would have major ramifications globally to attempt to back them down. We allowed them to grow into the worlds 2nd largest military and are occupying about every continent on the earth. What is NATO's solution to that problem before we have to blow to whole god damn earth up?

Trump did warn Germany about their huuuge dependence on Russia energy and was laughed at. Wonder if they are still laughing.

  

[akvanden]

5 minutes ago, Highmark said:

As I stated before what Russia doing is vile and evil and should be held to account.  Let me repeat that, what Russia is doing is vile and evil and should be held to account.   The Russian's should have to pay the consequences for this action and pay to re-build Ukraine even if that's not the best path historically.

I agree, which is why I’m having a hard time with those saying “they’re evil but….” as if evil would disappear if NATO disappears. 
 

and I don’t want this to turn into WWIII but I’m more than ok if we have to spend a few billion (while ensuring our military isn’t involved other than purely from a support role) to make lemonade out of lemons. That’s all this is now, making the best out of their blunders. 

[Anler]

4 minutes ago, ViperGTS/Z1 said:

Trump did warn Germany about their huuuge dependence on Russia energy and was laughed at. Wonder if they are still laughing.

  

It was my point. Vlad is going to hold Europe and the world hostage over oil, gas, wheat and fertilizer. How many will have to cave in to him sooner rather that later when faced with famine and power issues. 

Any farmers here? I just got off the phone with a guy I do work for who also has a family farm. He said try getting fertilizer and herbicide. He said people have no idea what is coming. Although I live in farm country I dont know anything about that personally. Anyone here? 

[Highmark]

Just now, akvanden said:

I agree, which is why I’m having a hard time with those saying “they’re evil but….” as if evil would disappear if NATO disappears. 
 

and I don’t want this to turn into WWIII but I’m more than ok if we have to spend a few billion (while ensuring our military isn’t involved other than purely from a support role) to make lemonade out of lemons. That’s all this is now, making the best out of their blunders. 

That is the million dollar question.  I'm not opposed to NATO.  Its existence is understandable.   I'm opposed to us footing a significant part of the bill for close to 75 years.  Other than nuclear Russia is basically zero threat to us.   They have half our population and less than 10% of our GDP.   

[Anler]

1 minute ago, Highmark said:

That is the million dollar question.  I'm not opposed to NATO.  Its existence is understandable.   I'm opposed to us footing a significant part of the bill for close to 75 years.  Other than nuclear Russia is basically zero threat to us.   They have half our population and less than 10% of our GDP.   

Its another grift to sell weapons that we subsidize for the rest of the world

[Highmark]

7 minutes ago, Anler said:

It was my point. Vlad is going to hold Europe and the world hostage over oil, gas, wheat and fertilizer. How many will have to cave in to him sooner rather that later when faced with famine and power issues. 

Any farmers here? I just got off the phone with a guy I do work for who also has a family farm. He said try getting fertilizer and herbicide. He said people have no idea what is coming. Although I live in farm country I dont know anything about that personally. Anyone here? 

I live smack dab in the middle of Iowa small town farm country.  I haven't heard of major complaints of availability yet but cost is extremely high.   I think they will be ok when corn is touching $8/bu and beans $17/bu.  Lots of manure and AH applied here as well for nitrogen.

If Ukraine can't plant this spring I think the world is in for a shock when it comes to food costs/availability.  

Edited April 15, 2022 by Highmark

[ViperGTS/Z1]

1 minute ago, Anler said:

It was my point. Vlad is going to hold Europe and the world hostage over oil, gas, wheat and fertilizer. How many will have to cave in to him sooner rather that later when faced with famine and power issues. 

Any farmers here? I just got off the phone with a guy I do work for who also has a family farm. He said try getting fertilizer and herbicide. He said people have no idea what is coming. Although I live in farm country I dont know anything about that personally. Anyone here? 

I heard about the fertilizer issue.... I think naturally aspirated deals with that stuff.... maybe racing farmer?

[Highmark]

Like it or not the existence of NATO also can lead to other "partnerships" because someone else doesn't like a member of NATO.   Think China, Iran, North Korea etc....

Would not lead to good things if a bunch of the wests "enemies" starting partnering up in one large military organization.

[Anler]

3 minutes ago, Highmark said:

I live smack dab in the middle of Iowa small town farm country.  I haven't heard of major complaints of availability yet but cost is extremely high.   I think they will be ok when corn is touching $8/bu and beans $17/bu. 

If Ukraine can't plant this spring I think the world is in for a shock when it comes to food costs/availability.  

This guy is a bit of an exaggerator so thats why i asked. But he was yammering about 80% of some fertilizer component that comes out of Russia and then herbicides being scarce which would reduce yields. 

The wheat shortage is going to be a big problem for much of Europe. 

[Highmark]

1 minute ago, Anler said:

This guy is a bit of an exaggerator so thats why i asked. But he was yammering about 80% of some fertilizer component that comes out of Russia and then herbicides being scarce which would reduce yields. 

The wheat shortage is going to be a big problem for much of Europe. 

I was able to get my yard fertilizer all lined up for the summer.  Must not be too rare a commodity if we can still find it for our yards.