motonoggin Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 3 minutes ago, xtralettucetomatoe580 said: Who controls the usage of these products? What happens when demand is higher than supply? We build more. Or more likely, we have our robots make more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legend Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 1 minute ago, motonoggin said: You're right, humans will have to shed their vanity. I think we are capable of doing that, eventually. If you read the bible, you will know that as a world population since the beginning of time, people have never even come close to this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtralettucetomatoe580 Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 7 minutes ago, motonoggin said: We build more. Or more likely, we have our robots make more. And when resources become scarce, who decides what is appropriate? When meeting the demand of every person destroys the climate, who says enough? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 5 minutes ago, Highmark said: So everything your pot business produces is under exploited labor? I can assume you have profited from it. We pay a pretty good wage, but it isn't communism, that's for sure. That's why there is no ethical consumption under capitalism. 3 minutes ago, Angry ginger said: sure we are, SMH Cynicism is the refuge of cowards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 2 minutes ago, xtralettucetomatoe580 said: And when resources become scarce, who decides what is appropriate? When meeting the demand of every person destroys the climate, who says enough? If something is destructive of the climate and our collective survival, we would recognize that and collectively decide not do it. Scarcity of resources shouldn't be an issue for us if we recognize potential scarcities and develop conservation and replacement strategies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 (edited) 11 minutes ago, motonoggin said: You're right, humans will have to shed their vanity. I think we are capable of doing that, eventually. So we need to EVOLVE to meet the NEEDS of your system. Seems fair. Also explains the horrible clothes and appearance of anarchists. Edited November 29, 2016 by Snake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtralettucetomatoe580 Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 8 minutes ago, motonoggin said: We pay a pretty good wage, but it isn't communism, that's for sure. That's why there is no ethical consumption under capitalism. Cynicism is the refuge of cowards. The wealth of the world is valued at $241T. If that were split evenly around the world, the average wage would be $51,600 per person. Not too hard to beat that in this country under Capitalism. Should people not make more than that, since they shouldn't make less? If a business owner pays higher than $51K, how is their consumption not ethical and even above reproach? 7 minutes ago, motonoggin said: If something is destructive of the climate and our collective survival, we would recognize that and collectively decide not do it. Scarcity of resources shouldn't be an issue for us if we recognize potential scarcities and develop conservation and replacement strategies. So you think "we" will all do that? What happens if you don't agree with the collective? Do you suffer the price? How is there free will when the collective determines what is best? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 5 minutes ago, xtralettucetomatoe580 said: And when resources become scarce, who decides what is appropriate? When meeting the demand of every person destroys the climate, who says enough? If something is destructive of the climate and our collective survival, we would recognize that and collectively decide not do it. Scarcity of resources shouldn't be an issue for us if we recognize potential scarcities and develop conservation and replacement strategies. Additionally, capitalism is clearly incapable of delivering any of this. There is and will not be an economic incentive to have a clean environment. At least not until capitalists realize that without human life to consume their goods, they don't make any money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtralettucetomatoe580 Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 7 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Additionally, capitalism is clearly incapable of delivering any of this. There is and will not be an economic incentive to have a clean environment. At least not until capitalists realize that without human life to consume their goods, they don't make any money. I would have to disagree there. There is incentive. It is externality. Long run behavior fits them. With proper regulation, they embrace them. Of course that is not all the time, but how can the argument be made that libertarian communism would be able to address the same concerns whilst maintaining an equal standard? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted November 29, 2016 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted November 29, 2016 (edited) Moto you seem like a compassionate guy. I'm not questioning that but history has proven your theories wrong. Its one thing to talk about NHC and other programs but the rest is honestly a Utopian wet dream. There is a reason it (collectivism) has never occurred without authoritarianism but you refuse to accept that. You also seem to fail to accept that in the vast majority of cases in human history the masses have done better in places where free market capitalism is in place. Even in the Sanders loved Scandinavian countries free market capitalism is king. If you want that its one thing but what you want yet do not practice yourself is simply not possible. Edited November 29, 2016 by Highmark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 1 minute ago, xtralettucetomatoe580 said: The wealth of the world is valued at $241T. If that were split evenly around the world, the average wage would be $51,600 per person. Not too hard to beat that in this country under Capitalism. Should people not make more than that, since they shouldn't make less? If a business owner pays higher than $51K, how is their consumption not ethical and even above reproach? So you think "we" will all do that? What happens if you don't agree with the collective? Do you suffer the price? How is there free will when the collective determines what is best? There will be no money, so any argument about what is a fair wage aren't relevant to a discussion on anarcho communism. The only fair wage that exists under communism are freedom and equality. There is no legitimate free will to do things that endanger the rest of us and our collective survival. If it isn't accessible to all and harmful to none, then it doesn't belong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted November 29, 2016 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted November 29, 2016 2 minutes ago, motonoggin said: There will be no money, so any argument about what is a fair wage aren't relevant to a discussion on anarcho communism. The only fair wage that exists under communism are freedom and equality. There is no legitimate free will to do things that endanger the rest of us and our collective survival. If it isn't accessible to all and harmful to none, then it doesn't belong. What do you do with the able bodied people not willing to work at all in your utopia? I ask this because there will be more than we have now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 3 minutes ago, Highmark said: Moto you seem like a compassionate guy. I'm not questioning that but history has proven your theories wrong. Its one thing to talk about NHC and other programs but the rest is honestly a Utopian wet dream. There is a reason it has never occurred without authoritarianism but you refuse to accept that. No, we need to do it without authoritarian vanguards or it won't last. This has to be a completely voluntary arrangement. Nothing like this will be held together through force. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 1 minute ago, Highmark said: What do you do with the able bodied people not willing to work at all in your utopia? I ask this because there will be more than we have now. Again, it requires a complete rewiring of the brain. And I think we can do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legend Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 5 minutes ago, motonoggin said: There will be no money, so any argument about what is a fair wage aren't relevant to a discussion on anarcho communism. The only fair wage that exists under communism are freedom and equality. There is no legitimate free will to do things that endanger the rest of us and our collective survival. If it isn't accessible to all and harmful to none, then it doesn't belong. So we all would be a bunch of sheep? No difference of opinion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted November 29, 2016 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted November 29, 2016 Just now, motonoggin said: No, we need to do it without authoritarian vanguards or it won't last. This has to be a completely voluntary arrangement. Nothing like this will be held together through force. Like in Star Trek. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 1 minute ago, motonoggin said: No, we need to do it without authoritarian vanguards or it won't last. This has to be a completely voluntary arrangement. Nothing like this will be held together through force. All under the assumption people's attitudes won't change. You want 'evolution', but for it to stop at the commune door. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cold War Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 32 minutes ago, Highmark said: The American dream is what each of us makes it out to be. For some its simply to get by. Have a roof over their head, warm bed and food on the table. To others its to have finer things like snowmobiles and what not. By definition I would say every US citizen should have an opportunity to achieve success and prosperity through hard work, determination, and initiative. Success and prosperity is what each of us define on our own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xtralettucetomatoe580 Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 7 minutes ago, motonoggin said: There will be no money, so any argument about what is a fair wage aren't relevant to a discussion on anarcho communism. The only fair wage that exists under communism are freedom and equality. There is no legitimate free will to do things that endanger the rest of us and our collective survival. If it isn't accessible to all and harmful to none, then it doesn't belong. That is fascism. Hands down, without a doubt. You toe the line, or you die. Because someone or something determines right and wrong whilst limiting free will. Perceptional differences could leave you on the out. That is not freedom, it is slavery to a collective will. This is all a classic case of oversimplification. In theory it is a beautiful thing. Never want for anything, never discrepancy of worth, etc. But in practice, in what world would all of this be possible? And in present how can you create enemies out of everyone who does not believe in a utopic ideal world because they choose with their free will to live a different way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Im4snow Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 Eeesch......Thank you God that I don't see the world through Moto's eyes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 1 minute ago, Highmark said: What do you do with the able bodied people not willing to work at all in your utopia? I ask this because there will be more than we have now. They may be exiled, but I think if people are able to explore and apply their unique talents for the betterment of themselves and humanity, we won't have many 'lazy' people left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legend Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 Well whatever, its nice that you have your opinions. But I cannot fathom how its giving us all freedom if we cannot have our own opinions. We must collectively share the same opinion for it to work. How is that freedom?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Im4snow Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 Just now, motonoggin said: They may be exiled, but I think if people are able to explore and apply their unique talents for the betterment of themselves and humanity, we won't have many 'lazy' people left. And imagine what they'll deliver with the incentive to do so!!! Thank you Adam Smith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry ginger Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 Whatever moto is smoking is clearly some good shit, he's even more out there than a 60's peace and love hippy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legend Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 1 minute ago, motonoggin said: They may be exiled, but I think if people are able to explore and apply their unique talents for the betterment of themselves and humanity, we won't have many 'lazy' people left. HAHA you've been watching Insurgent movies..... how did it work out for them? Did you read the books? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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