Zambroski Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 1 minute ago, motonoggin said: Platitudes. Like I said, this will be on a scope and scale never before seen. It will not self correct. I mean the level of economic illiteracy here is stunning. I'm surprised you guys can balance a checkbook. The UBI would have to come out of corporate profits in order for it to be a net plus to demand. Just stop dude. You have a thinner grasp on economic theory than anyone in here. And THAT is IMPRESSIVE. Look up anywhere in histororical economics where a capitalist type society broke down and reverted to a socialist society with success. and longevity. In fact, what you preach is EXACTLY what Eco 1 and 2 preach as economic nation killers. Plenty of those examples out there for sure. Again, our system is FLUID and always self correcting. It's not going anywhere but may evolve into different ideals as we go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted February 20, 2017 Author Share Posted February 20, 2017 1 minute ago, BOHICA said: Higher taxes on profits and trickled down to the impoverished... much like we do now with such thing as housing assistance, energy assistance food stamps and healthcare. Those thing are a result of trickle down.... would the likes of Donald trump get a UBI check. If not it's not universal and becomes a trickle on from tax payers to the poor I don't know, it's not my idea, and I've already said how it will fail. But your definition of trickle down, tho. Good fucking god... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Member BOHICA Posted February 20, 2017 Gold Member Share Posted February 20, 2017 3 minutes ago, 02sled said: We had a Premier here that wanted that for those collecting welfare. He called it workfare. The plan was that if you wanted your welfare check you would do something that you were physically able to do in order to "earn" that monthly cheque. Things like clean up a park, trash on the street, do work like some of the current volunteers in libraries or perhaps hospitals, community centres etc. Well most tax payers who were paying the freight thought it was a great idea. The problem was the unions got all upset and cried foul. If anyone was going to clean up a city park it was going to be one of their overpaid city employees and nobody else and similar for any of the other tasks. Well if we get to the point of robots that Moto is suggesting there won't be unions... So we can have sweeping brigades and such rather then robots running the street sweeper... by that token then all public works wouldn't use robots cause with UBI people would be getting income no matter what so why not lay off robots and machines cause we have to pay a workforce no matter what. Got to pay the people no matter what so robots would just be an extra unneeded cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted February 20, 2017 Author Share Posted February 20, 2017 1 minute ago, Zambroski said: Just stop dude. You have a thinner grasp on economic theory than anyone in here. And THAT is IMPRESSIVE. Look up anywhere in histororical economics where a capitalist type society broke down and reverted to a socialist society with success. and longevity. In fact, what you preach is EXACTLY what Eco 1 and 2 preach as economic nation killers. Plenty of those examples out there for sure. Again, our system is FLUID and always self correcting. It's not going anywhere but may evolve into different ideals as we go. Just shut up, you're fucking ignorant as shit, you clearly cannot comprehend basic English, economics, or mathematics. You're so fucked you're agreeing with slinger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted February 20, 2017 Author Share Posted February 20, 2017 Just now, BOHICA said: Well if we get to the point of robots that Moto is suggesting there won't be unions... So we can have sweeping brigades and such rather then robots running the street sweeper... by that token then all public works wouldn't use robots cause with UBI people would be getting income no matter what so why not lay off robots and machines cause we have to pay a workforce no matter what. Got to pay the people no matter what so robots would just be an extra unneeded cost. Jesus Christ, you're trolling, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted February 20, 2017 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted February 20, 2017 53 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Regardless, it is predicted that automation will take place of human labor much faster than we can find new jobs for the displaced labor. That means wages fall overall due to simple laws of supply and demand, and will magnify wages shrinking share in the overall aggregate demand equation. So, the question remains, what do we do to counteract that? Capitalists are proposing universal basic income as a way to counteract it. It would likely have to be done through taxation and redistribution. This is a tacit admission of the deep flaws of capitalism. It's incapable of supporting its own demand because it will always seek to reduce labor costs in order to extract more profit. 45 minutes ago, Snoslinger said: noggin just stfu. it will all self correct. not every manufacturing job is going to robots. robots and other advances also create more jobs. if the cost of widgets get too high for anyone to buy, they'll have to drop prices. take your communist agenda and shove it dude. the only people buying your nonsense are basement dwelling stoners with average grades in east ffrica bird migration pattern majors. all 9 of them This. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Member BOHICA Posted February 20, 2017 Gold Member Share Posted February 20, 2017 (edited) 3 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Jesus Christ, you're trolling, right? For public works if we have mandatory basic income robots and the cost become redundant and extra and unnecessary. Why not work the people in public works instead of having the extra cost of robots and the maintenance on them??? Edited February 20, 2017 by BOHICA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted February 20, 2017 Author Share Posted February 20, 2017 (edited) "It'll just self correct, everything will be fine, capitalism is awesome" (Wages have been stagnant for 40 years, no self correction in sight) Edited February 20, 2017 by motonoggin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted February 20, 2017 Author Share Posted February 20, 2017 2 minutes ago, BOHICA said: For public works if we have mandatory basic income robots and the cost become redundant and extra and unnecessary. Why not work the people in public works instead of having the extra cost of robots and the maintenance on them??? This is why UBI won't work. Everyone will be concerned about what the other guy's doing and it'll be a political football. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zambroski Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 6 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Just shut up, you're fucking ignorant as shit, you clearly cannot comprehend basic English, economics, or mathematics. You're so fucked you're agreeing with slinger. Me agreeing with Slinger isn't a tell for how "fucked" I am, it's a "tell" for how fucked you are. Sorry. I have no problem agreeing with anybody when I find their argument correct. It seems you are lashing out at me a bit here. I can assure you, my English, Economics and Mathematics are of sound and proven educated theory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Member BOHICA Posted February 20, 2017 Gold Member Share Posted February 20, 2017 2 minutes ago, motonoggin said: This is why UBI won't work. Everyone will be concerned about what the other guy's doing and it'll be a political football. Your right UBI will never work cause it other people paying for other people's existence and a form of trickling on the lower class Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted February 20, 2017 Author Share Posted February 20, 2017 Just now, Zambroski said: Me agreeing with Slinger isn't a tell for how "fucked" I am, it's a "tell" for how fucked you are. Sorry. I have no problem agreeing with anybody when I find their argument correct. It seems you are lashing out at me a bit here. I can assure you, my English, Economics and Mathematics are of sound and proven educated theory. Okay, so how do you address the inherent contradictions in capitalism that I've articulated, genius? How do you address stagnant wages and rising debt? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted February 20, 2017 Author Share Posted February 20, 2017 Just now, BOHICA said: Your right UBI will never work cause it other people paying for other people's existence and a form of trickling on the lower class Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zambroski Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 2 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Okay, so how do you address the inherent contradictions in capitalism that I've articulated, genius? How do you address stagnant wages and rising debt? Little more than "red herrings" promoted as propoganda by a weirded out sub-culture of socialist wanna-bes of the disenfranchised. Hows that? Seriously, there have been some very good posts and rebutles to your rantings that were educated and answered your questions. If you want to hold to your theory so tightly then fine. I admire the dedication. Just not the intellectuall or reason quotient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02sled Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 22 minutes ago, BOHICA said: Well if we get to the point of robots that Moto is suggesting there won't be unions... So we can have sweeping brigades and such rather then robots running the street sweeper... by that token then all public works wouldn't use robots cause with UBI people would be getting income no matter what so why not lay off robots and machines cause we have to pay a workforce no matter what. Got to pay the people no matter what so robots would just be an extra unneeded cost. This isn't relative to the implementation of robots this is a simple correlation to people expecting to get a hand out for people doing nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted February 20, 2017 Author Share Posted February 20, 2017 7 minutes ago, Zambroski said: Little more than "red herrings" promoted as propoganda by a weirded out sub-culture of socialist wanna-bes of the disenfranchised. Hows that? Seriously, there have been some very good posts and rebutles to your rantings that were educated and answered your questions. If you want to hold to your theory so tightly then fine. I admire the dedication. Just not the intellectuall or reason quotient. Wage stagnation and rising debt is an economic fact. If you can't even acknowledge that, much less how to correct it, you have absolutely no business in this discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted February 20, 2017 Author Share Posted February 20, 2017 7 minutes ago, 02sled said: This isn't relative to the implementation of robots this is a simple correlation to people expecting to get a hand out for people doing nothing. And this attitude is precisely why even moderate attempts to reform capitalism will fail. Marx predicted this in the 19th century and you're bound and determined to prove him right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zambroski Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 1 minute ago, motonoggin said: Wage stagnation and rising debt is an economic fact. If you can't even acknowledge that, much less how to correct it, you have absolutely no business in this discussion. Didn't SSFB and you hash this same argument out the other night? And I think I can answer those but you won't like it, and you won't agree. I will use the terms "self correcting" and "fluid" a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted February 20, 2017 Author Share Posted February 20, 2017 2 minutes ago, Zambroski said: Didn't SSFB and you hash this same argument out the other night? And I think I can answer those but you won't like it, and you won't agree. I will use the terms "self correcting" and "fluid" a lot. No. And don't you mean you're going to bullshit your way through an answer because you know fuck all about the subject matter? The idea that the economy will self correct is easily disproven by 40 years of stagnant wages and rising debt. The next generation of automation is going to accelerate and magnify this problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02sled Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 5 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Wage stagnation and rising debt is an economic fact. If you can't even acknowledge that, much less how to correct it, you have absolutely no business in this discussion. Rising debt is a choice that some people CHOOSE to take on. Typically from the entitled generations that live beyond their means and go into debt on wants and not needs. They go shopping for their first home and won't accept anything that doesn't have a two car garage, landscaped yard, 5 appliances, granite countertops and at least two bathrooms. After all that's what mom and dad have. They overlook the part where it took mom and dad most of their lifetime to get to that stage. Then there's the need to replace the 9 month old smart phone with the newest model. Why not because they need it. Because they want it. It's not my responsibility to prop up someone who chooses to feed their sense of entitlement and live well beyond their means by going into debt. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02sled Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 4 minutes ago, motonoggin said: No. And don't you mean you're going to bullshit your way through an answer because you know fuck all about the subject matter? The idea that the economy will self correct is easily disproven by 40 years of stagnant wages and rising debt. The next generation of automation is going to accelerate and magnify this problem. Where do you get 40 years of stagnant wages from? Maybe it's been stagnant for 40 years for the pot head growing business but I just retired after working 40 years and my income sure as hell went up significantly. Putting things into perspective 40 years ago I could buy a nicely equipped new pickup for $5K. Our house has gone up $500K in about 25 years. Guess what the incomes have gone up in those time periods as well. Are you really living in North America and not some third world country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKIQPilot Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 58 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Platitudes. Like I said, this will be on a scope and scale never before seen. It will not self correct. I mean the level of economic illiteracy here is stunning. I'm surprised you guys can balance a checkbook. The UBI would have to come out of corporate profits in order for it to be a net plus to demand. 120 years ago people like you cried that the world as we know was going to end because of the motorcar. Just more "the sky is falling" BS from people stuck in the mud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKIQPilot Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 1 hour ago, Snoslinger said: noggin just stfu. it will all self correct. not every manufacturing job is going to robots. robots and other advances also create more jobs. if the cost of widgets get too high for anyone to buy, they'll have to drop prices. take your communist agenda and shove it dude. the only people buying your nonsense are basement dwelling stoners with average grades in east ffrica bird migration pattern majors. all 9 of them Finally, slinger gets something right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted February 20, 2017 Author Share Posted February 20, 2017 9 minutes ago, 02sled said: Rising debt is a choice that some people CHOOSE to take on. Typically from the entitled generations that live beyond their means and go into debt on wants and not needs. They go shopping for their first home and won't accept anything that doesn't have a two car garage, landscaped yard, 5 appliances, granite countertops and at least two bathrooms. After all that's what mom and dad have. They overlook the part where it took mom and dad most of their lifetime to get to that stage. Then there's the need to replace the 9 month old smart phone with the newest model. Why not because they need it. Because they want it. It's not my responsibility to prop up someone who chooses to feed their sense of entitlement and live well beyond their means by going into debt. But if they didn't incur debt to buy things, aggregate demand would fall, leading to falling prices, lower profits, job loss, and even less aggregate demand. Do you even understand the basic concepts of a consumer economy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted February 20, 2017 Author Share Posted February 20, 2017 7 minutes ago, 02sled said: Where do you get 40 years of stagnant wages from? Maybe it's been stagnant for 40 years for the pot head growing business but I just retired after working 40 years and my income sure as hell went up significantly. Putting things into perspective 40 years ago I could buy a nicely equipped new pickup for $5K. Our house has gone up $500K in about 25 years. Guess what the incomes have gone up in those time periods as well. Are you really living in North America and not some third world country. The bureau of labor statistics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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