motonoggin Posted February 23, 2017 Author Share Posted February 23, 2017 10 minutes ago, Highmark said: Dude you know more could convince me there is a better system than capitalism than I could convince you capitalism is the way. The only thing reading anti-capitalism drivel does is reinforce my beliefs in it. Whats hilarious is your unapologetic use of the capitalistic system as a means to get to communism. I find that priceless. Why is it priceless? Slavery was reformed to feudalism, feudalism was reformed to capitalism. Capitalism will create the conditions that make communism not only possible, but inevitable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted February 23, 2017 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted February 23, 2017 Just now, motonoggin said: Why is it priceless? Slavery was reformed to feudalism, feudalism was reformed to capitalism. Capitalism will create the conditions that make communism not only possible, but inevitable. Then why does communism fail so much? Why is the only communist countries that are remotely economically successful those that have some capitalism practiced with it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted February 23, 2017 Author Share Posted February 23, 2017 14 minutes ago, Highmark said: Then why does communism fail so much? Why is the only communist countries that are remotely economically successful those that have some capitalism practiced with it? Capitalism is the dominant ideology. Just as feudalism was before capitalism. The transition from feudalism to capitalism didn't take place overnight, and a transition from capitalism to stateless communism isn't going to be an overnight change either. I suggested you read Stirner not because he's anti-capitalist, but because he articulates how all these things we do and how we organize our society are merely constructs that we have the power to change at any time we wish. Gender norms, economics, politics, religion, etc are all human constructs, or in his words, spooks. They're only as real as we make them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted February 23, 2017 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted February 23, 2017 2 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Capitalism is the dominant ideology. Just as feudalism was before capitalism. The transition from feudalism to capitalism didn't take place overnight, and a transition from capitalism to stateless communism isn't going to be an overnight change either. I suggested you read Stirner not because he's anti-capitalist, but because he articulates how all these things we do and how we organize our society are merely constructs that we have the power to change at any time we wish. Gender norms, economics, politics, religion, etc are all human constructs, or in his words, spooks. They're only as real as we make them. And I suggest you read Friedman. From Wiki Stirner proposes that most commonly accepted social institutions – including the notion of State, property as a right, natural rights in general, and the very notion of society – were mere illusions, "spooks" or ghosts in the mind.[14] Sounds like something I would enjoy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted February 23, 2017 Author Share Posted February 23, 2017 2 minutes ago, Highmark said: And I suggest you read Friedman. From Wiki Stirner proposes that most commonly accepted social institutions – including the notion of State, property as a right, natural rights in general, and the very notion of society – were mere illusions, "spooks" or ghosts in the mind.[14] Sounds like something I would enjoy. Friedman was a fraud. Stirner was a brilliant philosopher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted February 23, 2017 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted February 23, 2017 7 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Friedman was a fraud. Stirner was a brilliant philosopher. “A society that puts equality before freedom will get neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both.” ― Milton Friedman “Well first of all, tell me: Is there some society you know that doesn’t run on greed? You think Russia doesn’t run on greed? You think China doesn’t run on greed? What is greed? Of course, none of us are greedy, it’s only the other fellow who’s greedy. The world runs on individuals pursuing their separate interests. The great achievements of civilization have not come from government bureaus. Einstein didn’t construct his theory under order from a bureaucrat. Henry Ford didn’t revolutionize the automobile industry that way. In the only cases in which the masses have escaped from the kind of grinding poverty you’re talking about, the only cases in recorded history, are where they have had capitalism and largely free trade. If you want to know where the masses are worse off, worst off, it’s exactly in the kinds of societies that depart from that. So that the record of history is absolutely crystal clear, that there is no alternative way so far discovered of improving the lot of the ordinary people that can hold a candle to the productive activities that are unleashed by the free-enterprise system.” ― Milton Friedman “Government has three primary functions. It should provide for military defense of the nation. It should enforce contracts between individuals. It should protect citizens from crimes against themselves or their property. When government-- in pursuit of good intentions tries to rearrange the economy, legislate morality, or help special interests, the cost come in inefficiency, lack of motivation, and loss of freedom. Government should be a referee, not an active player.” ― Milton Friedman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted February 23, 2017 Author Share Posted February 23, 2017 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted February 23, 2017 Author Share Posted February 23, 2017 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted February 23, 2017 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted February 23, 2017 I love your cute little memes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted February 23, 2017 Author Share Posted February 23, 2017 1 minute ago, Highmark said: I love your cute little memes. What's even cuter is the idea that basing an economic system on some of the worst traits of humanity - greed, avarice, domination - will produce the best society for humanity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted February 23, 2017 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted February 23, 2017 2 minutes ago, motonoggin said: What's even cuter is the idea that basing an economic system on some of the worst traits of humanity - greed, avarice, domination - will produce the best society for humanity. Whats cuter is having the faith in humanity that we can accomplish the things we have without the notion of self advancement or preservation. The most successful societies always have a balance. Your notion of what society should or will be is about as realistic as reaching that solar system NASA has claimed to find. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted February 23, 2017 Author Share Posted February 23, 2017 4 minutes ago, Highmark said: Whats cuter is having the faith in humanity that we can accomplish the things we have without the notion of self advancement or preservation. The most successful societies always have a balance. Your notion of what society should or will be is about as realistic as reaching that solar system NASA has claimed to find. Sounds more like you're trying to convince yourself of that, not me. Humans don't need monetary incentive to do great things. Would you like proof? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted February 23, 2017 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted February 23, 2017 3 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Sounds more like you're trying to convince yourself of that, not me. Humans don't need monetary incentive to do great things. Would you like proof? Oh god yes please show me that article on that very limited experiment for the 5th time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted February 23, 2017 Author Share Posted February 23, 2017 4 minutes ago, Highmark said: Oh god yes please show me that article on that very limited experiment for the 5th time. All you really need to do is look at human history. Capitalism only emerged in the last few centuries, meanwhile humans have been doing great things for thousands of years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted February 23, 2017 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted February 23, 2017 (edited) 6 minutes ago, motonoggin said: All you really need to do is look at human history. Capitalism only emerged in the last few centuries, meanwhile humans have been doing great things for thousands of years. We've came farther in the last 100 years than the previous 5000 thanks to Capitalism. http://www.aei.org/publication/chart-of-the-greatest-and-most-remarkable-achievement-in-human-history-and-one-you-probably-never-heard-about/ Chart of the greatest and most remarkable achievement in human history, and one you probably never heard about Carpe Diem Font SizeAA Everybody’s featuring their “graphs and charts of the year,” like The Atlantic and the Washington Post (be sure to see Vice-President Joe Biden’s “Graph of the Year” on Amtrak ridership). Well, the chart above could perhaps qualify as the “chart of the century” because it illustrates one of the most remarkable achievements in human history: the 80% reduction in world poverty in only 36 years, from 26.8% of the world’s population living on $1 or less (in 1987 dollars) in 1970 to only 5.4% in 2006. (Source: The 2009 NBER working paper “Parametric Estimations of the World Distribution of Income,” by economists Maxim Pinkovskiy (MIT) and Xavier Sala-i-Martin (Columbia University). What accounts for this great achievement that you never hear about? AEI president Arthur Brooks explains in the video below, summarized here: It turns out that between 1970 and 2010 the worst poverty in the world – people who live on one dollar a day or less – that has decreased by 80 percent (see chart above). You never hear about that. It’s the greatest achievement in human history, and you never hear about it. 80 percent of the world’s worst poverty has been eradicated in less than 40 years. That has never, ever happened before. So what did that? What accounts for that? United Nations? US foreign aid? The International Monetary Fund? Central planning? No. It was globalization, free trade, the boom in international entrepreneurship. In short, it was the free enterprise system, American style, which is our gift to the world. I will state, assert and defend the statement that if you love the poor, if you are a good Samaritan, you must stand for the free enterprise system, and you must defend it, not just for ourselves but for people around the world. It is the best anti-poverty measure ever invented. Edited February 23, 2017 by Highmark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted February 23, 2017 Author Share Posted February 23, 2017 1 minute ago, Highmark said: We've came farther in the last 100 years than the previous 5000 thanks to Capitalism. Engineer's today still don't think they would be able to build many of the 7 Wonders of the ancient world. And it is technology, not capitalism, combined with human ingenuity that has led to such an acceleration of development. All capitalism does is determine who gets paid what for the work that they do Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted February 23, 2017 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted February 23, 2017 (edited) 1 minute ago, motonoggin said: Engineer's today still don't think they would be able to build many of the 7 Wonders of the ancient world. And it is technology, not capitalism, combined with human ingenuity that has led to such an acceleration of development. All capitalism does is determine who gets paid what for the work that they do Ah yes because the advancement of technology and free market enterprises (capitalism) have nothing to do with one another. As for the comments on the 7 wonders please post up some proof on that. I'm not taking away from their greatness considering the time they were achieved but come on Moto we've done more amazing things. The skyscrapers we've created, the bridges, damns. Edited February 23, 2017 by Highmark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted February 23, 2017 Author Share Posted February 23, 2017 1 minute ago, Highmark said: Ah yes because the advancement of technology and free market enterprises (capitalism) have nothing to do with one another. creation of basic internet infrastructure was not originally built to generate profits. And it is arguably the engine that is driving rapid evolution in both human thought and human creativity. When you look through the last 100 years you will find numerous instances where people did things, great things, with no promise of any sort of monetary reward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted February 23, 2017 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted February 23, 2017 (edited) 1 minute ago, motonoggin said: creation of basic internet infrastructure was not originally built to generate profits. And it is arguably the engine that is driving rapid evolution in both human thought and human creativity. When you look through the last 100 years you will find numerous instances where people did things, great things, with no promise of any sort of monetary reward. Sure there are some but many of those came from govt that was funded by the high tax revenue created by a generally free market system. They were not done on their own for free. Most of the ancient wonders were created out of force, not mans simple desire to create great things. Edited February 23, 2017 by Highmark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted February 23, 2017 Author Share Posted February 23, 2017 7 minutes ago, Highmark said: Sure there are some but many of those came from govt that was funded by the high tax revenue created by a generally free market system. They were not done on their own for free. Most of the ancient wonders were created out of force, not mans simple desire to create great things. Well, I'm not going to sit here and extol the virtues of slavery while talking about the ancient pyramids, for example. That'd be silly. Just the same way I wouldn't sit here and extol the virtues of feudalism for advances in science and philosophy. The system they were built under is immaterial, it's a social construct, a spook. Humanity accomplished all these things. The system in which we organized ourselves doesn't negate the fact that humanity alone is responsible for its achievements. The economics of the era merely determined who did (and didn't) get paid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted February 23, 2017 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted February 23, 2017 (edited) 20 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Well, I'm not going to sit here and extol the virtues of slavery while talking about the ancient pyramids, for example. That'd be silly. Just the same way I wouldn't sit here and extol the virtues of feudalism for advances in science and philosophy. The system they were built under is immaterial, it's a social construct, a spook. Humanity accomplished all these things. The system in which we organized ourselves doesn't negate the fact that humanity alone is responsible for its achievements. The economics of the era merely determined who did (and didn't) get paid. So the slaves would have just up and created the pyramids on their own? Humanities capabilities are generally not achieved without a system. We can debate the semantics of it all day long. Even in your perfect communistic society organizations would form in order to conquer the greatest achievements. I get what you are saying, yes man is integral to the achievements we've accomplished, its not just "the system" and my point is and always will be the free market powers of capitalism is the most efficient method of organized society to achieve the greatest goals and that benefits the most people. No system will ever be perfect. That is where I feel your failure is, you think it can and I simply think because of human nature it cannot. Its the reason no time has communism ever been formed without authoritarianism. I will say this moto, I do think it would be better for society of corporations did share in more of fruits (profits) with workers and be better balanced then just concerns of the shareholders. What % of companies are like this I cannot say. What I do not want to see is govt forcing this to occur. I do feel more than you or most would admit that companies do care for their workers. There must be a balance between workers and shareholders (owners) when it comes to running a business. At least that is how I run mine. Edited February 23, 2017 by Highmark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted February 23, 2017 Author Share Posted February 23, 2017 13 minutes ago, Highmark said: So the slaves would have just up and created the pyramids on their own? Humanities capabilities are generally not achieved without a system. We can debate the semantics of it all day long. Even in your perfect communistic society organizations would form in order to conquer the greatest achievements. I get what you are saying, yes man is integral to the achievements we've accomplished, its not just "the system" and my point is and always will be the free market powers of capitalism is the most efficient method of organized society to achieve the greatest goals and that benefits the most people. No system will ever be perfect. That is where I feel your failure is, you think it can and I simply think because of human nature it cannot. Its the reason no time has communism ever been formed without authoritarianism. No that's not what I meant at all. What I'm saying is, slavery was not necessary to build the pyramids, for example, even though that's what was used. I can build a house with a hammer or a nail gun. Is my skill or ability to build a solid building a credit to my hammer or my nail gun, or to me as a builder? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted February 23, 2017 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted February 23, 2017 (edited) 2 minutes ago, motonoggin said: No that's not what I meant at all. What I'm saying is, slavery was not necessary to build the pyramids, for example, even though that's what was used. I can build a house with a hammer or a nail gun. Is my skill or ability to build a solid building a credit to my hammer or my nail gun, or to me as a builder? Kind of a myopic way of looking at it. Some sort of system was needed for the pyramids to be built. Sure they were capable of the actual design and labor but for it all to come together SOME organizational structure had to be implemented. Edited February 23, 2017 by Highmark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motonoggin Posted February 23, 2017 Author Share Posted February 23, 2017 1 minute ago, Highmark said: Kind of a myopic way of looking at it. Not really. Capitalism is just a tool we use. That doesn't mean it's the best tool, or even the most efficient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platinum Contributing Member Highmark Posted February 23, 2017 Platinum Contributing Member Share Posted February 23, 2017 29 minutes ago, motonoggin said: Not really. Capitalism is just a tool we use. That doesn't mean it's the best tool, or even the most efficient. To date it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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